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Pretty much all Troops in the 40K tabletop game has grenades of different sorts - There's the Frag Grenade for hordes, the Krak Grenade for Vehicles and Defensive Grenades for Stealth... But is it only me, or do these rarely matter in game? I don't know, but I don't see Grenades as all that powerful or useful in game, and they are rarely used in my games, simply because it wouldn't matter. No, stop there - Assault Grenades are great, because it allows for charging into Initiative without penality. But the others?...

I've only seen Frag Grenades used as Assault Grenades, as the usual 8'' S 4 Blast isn't that great for... Well, anything, really. Sure, it's not weak against other Troops, bt it has no AP to speak off and is very, very short ranged... And when you are there, you are properly trying to get into CC anyway, so using a Grenade there would be counterproductive.

Krak Grenades, also called "Tactical Marine Bloat", is a S 6 AP 4 attack in CC, as far as I remember... And again, that's no the best thing to take out tanks. Sure, it can do damage, but not much, and the rest of the unit can't do anything while the grenade-lobber just stands there. Can maybe blow up a Troop during charge, too.

Defensive Grenades are something I've only ever seen Fire Warriors use, and not for much... Stealth when shot within 8'', and removes any charge bonus the enemy could have had... So helps defend units that will be slaughtered in CC anyway. Not bad, not great.

Sorry for the negative tone here - I just don't see how this should be representative of grenades proper. In one way, adding stuff to them wouldn't help the game overall, but on the other hand, I see the rules for Grenades as rather bloaty as they are...

What is your view on Grenades right now, and how do they do in your games? Do you feel they are good as are, or is something wrong?

I'll await your response

They are better represented than they ever have been before - at least they can actually be thrown now.

They have a significant impact in some of my games.

Krak grenades are great and come into play a lot if you have a lot of vehicles in your meta. If they were optional wargear my marine bikers would still never leave home without them. Krak grenades + a 12 move and charge has resulted in a lot of glanced out tanks.
They also give marines a chance vs MCs and dreadnoughts which is nice.

Your critisism about one man throwing a grenade, and the rest of the squad doing nothing, effects all weapons in the game, not just grenades.

Some grenades are very powerful. Have you ever seen a unit with haywire grenades assault a vehicle?

The rules are the best they could be without being totally broken.

If the rules were such that any model with a grenade could throw one, then a unit of 10 Tac marines could throw 10 Str6s or 10 Str3 small blasts. That would be way too strong.

Although not in terms of being thrown, having assault grenades can really make or break whether a supposed assault unit is good or not (there are other factors too).

Krak grenades are really useful for taking out vehicles. Most vehicles have rear armour 10/11, so 10 Tac marines can usually take 2/3 HP.

Haywire Grenades do the above but obviously much better. Haywire Wyches used to be great in that role as a 60 pt squad of five would be able to take out most vehicles. As this is a bit of a suicide tactic, it's not really worth it with the units that still have access to HW grenades as they are more expensive.

Melta Bombs are awesome. That's all I need, once took out a Land Raider with 'em.

Also, defensive grenades no longer give stealth (that was 6th ed). You can throw them as a small blast, and if they hit a unit, they inflict blind. So, rather useful little buggers if you can get your paws on them.

I do wish assault grenades had some gimmick above just str3 blast, as theyre pretty much never thrown for favor of that models main weapon. Str4, or str2 with shred or something.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They are better represented than they ever have been before - at least they can actually be thrown now.

They could be thrown originally as well. It's just the editions in between where that ability was removed.

By the way defensive grenades do not give stealth within 8" any more in 7th edition. It is a small blast template that blinds whatever it hits...unless the rules got changed at some point.

As a Tau player this makes me incredibly sad. I used to love sitting in cover with defensive grenades. Also losing charge bonuses can be a big deal. I've had fire warriors tie up stuff they had no business fighting. It's not like it will make too much of a difference, but it makes some stupid stuff happen sometimes.

I would argue that Blind is a decent trade for Stealth you only get if the shooter is within 8", because if an enemy is within 8" of you he's going to be charging. And charge bonus or not he's probably going to kill your firewarriors.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I would argue that Blind is a decent trade for Stealth you only get if the shooter is within 8", because if an enemy is within 8" of you he's going to be charging. And charge bonus or not he's probably going to kill your firewarriors.

Blind on whatever you happen to be able to hit under a BS3 small blast template vs stealth from everything in 8" of one of the models in the unit. I probably just haven't played enough games where I remembered to actually throw the dang things to comment, because the newer rules have done interesting things for me exactly 0 times.

I have mixed feelings about grenades. I think throwing them is a pretty unnecessary bit. They should be wargear, not a weapon. I also think you should have to pay for them as an option. Make people think as to whether or not they want to spend the extra points, rather than making them stock. I also think the whole assaulting a vehicle needs to be revamped. Infantry do not like assaulting tanks. In fact, it's rather terrifying and a method of absolute last resort. Either allow vehicles to fire overwatch, go back to only hitting in CC on 4+/6+, or make infantry take fear tests.

InB4 "don't let your tanks get assaulted" as if that's possible in 40K.

I believe many armies do have to pay for it.
It's Power Armour that comes with Frag and Krak-grenades, which seems logical.

Krak grenades might be strong, but are also not that strong against real tanks.
10 models means you will hit with 7 grenades, perhaps 1 will actually glance that AV12.
That seems realistic to me.

In close combat? Don't you resolve hits against rear armor?

Kangodo wrote:I believe many armies do have to pay for it.
It's Power Armour that comes with Frag and Krak-grenades, which seems logical.

Krak grenades might be strong, but are also not that strong against real tanks.
10 models means you will hit with 7 grenades, perhaps 1 will actually glance that AV12.
That seems realistic to me.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:In close combat? Don't you resolve hits against rear armor?

Virtually all tanks have rear armor 10, not sure where AV12 comes in. Also, every model that wears power armor comes standard with krak grenades, even SoB. That accounts for a lot of armies all by itself.

 the_Armyman wrote:

Kangodo wrote:I believe many armies do have to pay for it.
It's Power Armour that comes with Frag and Krak-grenades, which seems logical.

Krak grenades might be strong, but are also not that strong against real tanks.
10 models means you will hit with 7 grenades, perhaps 1 will actually glance that AV12.
That seems realistic to me.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:In close combat? Don't you resolve hits against rear armor?

Virtually all tanks have rear armor 10, not sure where AV12 comes in. Also, every model that wears power armor comes standard with krak grenades, even SoB. That accounts for a lot of armies all by itself.

Thats not really a problem with those armies, its more a problem with GW not making a ton of Codices that aren't MEQs.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Virtually all tanks have rear armor 10, not sure where AV12 comes in. Also, every model that wears power armor comes standard with krak grenades, even SoB. That accounts for a lot of armies all by itself.

Which is why I was talking about real tanks
Most things that you see are actually APC's or modified APC's and that is not really scaring anyone.
This is probably how a real Predator would look like: http://morozovkmdb.com/images/guardian-3l.jpg

Dreadnoughts and real tanks, like the Sicaran Battle Tank or Land Raiders, those would scare people and they don't go down easy against Krak grenades.
Rhino-chassis Vehicles are only classified as a Tank because of rules, but they are not really tanks.
They have the same rear-armour and often even the same firepower as Land Speeders.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They are better represented than they ever have been before - at least they can actually be thrown now.

I see you missed 2nd Edition, lol.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rules are the best they could be without being totally broken.

If the rules were such that any model with a grenade could throw one, then a unit of 10 Tac marines could throw 10 Str6s or 10 Str3 small blasts. That would be way too strong.

that would make a tatical squad better then most tanks!

I love grenades. I'm always reminding my opponents to use them.

For Space Marines, if you're within range, one of your grenades will almost always be better than double tapping your bolter. Against rear armor 10 you triple your chances to ding a hull point. The list of beneficial situations goes on and on.

In the universe of 40k, where everyone is insane hyperzealots fighting giant space demons that eat your mind, I don't see a tank being particularly frightning up close (even to guardsmen).

"assaulting" a tank in 40k is abstracted for close range swarming of weak points, not actually chasing after it and hitting it on the bum. Attaching magnetic mines or grenades up close, disabling engine parts, crawling up and ripping open hatches and vision slits to shoot the gooey bits inside. For infantry, coming to grips with a tank in close combat is entirely to your advantage. The tank crew are the ones to be scared.
In WW2, tanks were entirely vulnerable in close-quarters fighting like cities, and NEEDED infantry support to protect them from other infantry. Tanks moving at combat speed in dense terrain can't move very fast, the crew can't see or hear very well (massive blind spots), and their main weapons are normally pretty useless at point blank range against sneaky ambushers.

What I would like to see, is some more defensive upgrades for vehicles that mirror some tricks used by real world tanks to protect them from close assaults:
Defensive Grenade Launchers (IG tanks sort of have this with the fire barrel upgrade). Basicaly a simple launcher that showers the outside of your tank in shrapnel to get infantry off it. (wall of death?)
Zimmerit, or anti-magnetic armour (or spaced armour or something), makes attaching things like meltabombs or krak grenades more difficult (hit on a 6?)
Crew weapons. Most tanks have firing ports that allow the crew to shoot pistols or SMGs at assualting infantry, and some russian tanks in-particular even had rear-firing machineguns specificity to stop guys from crawling up behind them.

McGibs wrote:For infantry, coming to grips with a tank in close combat is entirely to your advantage. The tank crew are the ones to be scared.
In WW2, tanks were entirely vulnerable in close-quarters fighting like cities, and NEEDED infantry support to protect them from other infantry. Tanks moving at combat speed in dense terrain can't move very fast, the crew can't see or hear very well (massive blind spots), and their main weapons are normally pretty useless at point blank range against sneaky ambushers.

Except in that silly Brad Pitt Tank Movie that came out recently, lol.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They are better represented than they ever have been before - at least they can actually be thrown now.

You definitely missed the first 2 40k editions then. Grenades of all types were an excellent short range weapon for all armies back in the day.

Highlight of grenade throwing for me was a having a space marine combat squad lobbing grenades at some gretchin, managing to fumble their throws and blow themselves up with 3 frag grenades! Toxin, blind, Rad and other cloud based grenades that persisted were a pain though if you had loads of them on the board. Tanglefoot was fun though

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

McGibs wrote:For infantry, coming to grips with a tank in close combat is entirely to your advantage. The tank crew are the ones to be scared.
In WW2, tanks were entirely vulnerable in close-quarters fighting like cities, and NEEDED infantry support to protect them from other infantry. Tanks moving at combat speed in dense terrain can't move very fast, the crew can't see or hear very well (massive blind spots), and their main weapons are normally pretty useless at point blank range against sneaky ambushers.

Except in that silly Brad Pitt Tank Movie that came out recently, lol.

Spoilers:
the tank still lost the fight :p

Also, having brad pitt as tank commander is like having yarrick in his baneblade.

 zedmeister wrote:
You definitely missed the first 2 40k editions then. Grenades of all types were an excellent short range weapon for all armies back in the day.

Frag Grenades having a 2" blast meant that there was generally very little point ever using Marines' bolt pistols. Once they were in pistol range, you were better off throwing 10 2" blasts at them instead.

I'm sad they remove the "no escape" rule for assault grenades. Throwing them into building windows was a cool little mechanic.

I give all my Tau Fire Warriors squads three EMP grenades. Keep within 6" of each others in ruins as best I can. Its a nice surprise for someone Land Raider that survived its run across the table from Hammerheads

Don't forget vortex grenades. We had to have an armistice whereby we limited their use...They were so brutal back in 2nd ed.

Kangodo wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Virtually all tanks have rear armor 10, not sure where AV12 comes in. Also, every model that wears power armor comes standard with krak grenades, even SoB. That accounts for a lot of armies all by itself.

Which is why I was talking about real tanks
Most things that you see are actually APC's or modified APC's and that is not really scaring anyone.
This is probably how a real Predator would look like: http://morozovkmdb.com/images/guardian-3l.jpg

Dreadnoughts and real tanks, like the Sicaran Battle Tank or Land Raiders, those would scare people and they don't go down easy against Krak grenades.
Rhino-chassis Vehicles are only classified as a Tank because of rules, but they are not really tanks.
They have the same rear-armour and often even the same firepower as Land Speeders.

Being a bit selective with your arguments, though. You mention dreadnoughts in the same sentence as "real" tanks. You also forget that Leman Russ' and Predators are "real" tanks by your admittedly loose definition, and they have AV10. As for whether it's more scary to assault an APC, IFV, or MBT: not distinctions that we need to get into. The rules call them "tanks," and that is sufficient for this discussion.

Given some hand tools, a few gallons of gasoline, and an unmoving/uncrewed MBT, I might be able to disable it. The ease of disabling it isn't the issue. It's the psychological effect a 70-ton machine that can kill you simply by moving at an inopportune time--never mind all the guns it has--that makes it particulalrly undesirable to approach as an infantryman.

If I charge a single T3 daemonette with Tac Marines, I have to take a Fear test. If I charge an AV14 Land Raider with a guardsman with a meltabomb, no problem!

Daemonettes inflicting fear has nothing to do with their T3, but because theyre daemonic entities that are an assault to your senses and mind (also, annoyingly, marines are entirely immune). Walkers and MCs inflict fear because they actively fight back in close combat, crushing infantry underfoot. By comparison, a tank can drive back and forth a little bit. In the context of 40k, that isn't very frightful. In REAL LIFE, yes it could be rather intimidating (though again, that didnt stop close-assault tactic from being extremely effective). But using real life logic, virtually everything in 40k should cause fear and/or pinning to everything else. There's no way in hell I'd want to fight a gretchen or ripper in real life.

Also, the guys that are ripping tanks apart are giant war monsters, like marines. A S3 guardsman can't do squat to AV10 without special equipment. The guardsman with a meltabomb is a specialist, whos been trained specifically to run up to big tanks like landraiders and blow them up. That kind of stuff doesnt scare them. What DOES scare them is when big honking boob monsters from beyond another dimension starts siphoning his soul out through his eyes. That's a thing he hasn't trained for.

 the_Armyman wrote:


If I charge a single T3 daemonette with Tac Marines, I have to take a Fear test.

No you don't.

Reread ATSKNF and the Fear rule.