The Battle of the Five Armies: Proposed Rules (Updated PDF Page 5)

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**Paradigm**

The optimist in me still hopes we'll see some form of the currently 'missing' BOTFA rules from GW, the concensus seems to be that sadly, they're done as far as that's concerned. As they say, though, if you want something done, do it yourself! So this thread is for discussing, suggesting and creating rules for all the stuff that appears in BotFA that GW haven't covered yet. Of course, anyone is welcome to join in, and hopefully between the contributors we can hash out some kind of fan-lists for the remaining troops, characters and scenarios.

To start things off, here's my take on The Iron Hills

Iron Hills Warriors:

Iron Hills Dwarf: 9 points (Dwarf)

M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Dwarf Armour

Options:
Pike: 2 points
Crossbow: 2 points
Shield: 1 point
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.

Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.

Notes: Base stats of Erebor Dwarves, same cost, I figure the greater cost of Pikes over spears accounts for the Phalanx Special Rule rule, and Shieldwall is +1. With Shield and Pike they run 12ppm, which is about fair I think.

Iron Hills Ramriders: 15 points (Dwarf, Cavalry)

Rider: M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4
Ram: M 9 F2/- S4 D4 A0 W1 C3
Armoured Ram: M8 F2/- S4 D5 A0 W1 C3

Wargear: Dwarf Armour, Ram

Options:
Armoured Ram: 2 points
Lance: 1 point
Shield: 1 point
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Sure-footed: Rams ignore any penalty for moving over Difficult Terrain consisting of rocks, boulders, scree or steep slopes.

Notes: I based this one off a Warg Rider, adding 2 points for the extra Defence and 2 for the higher F and C values, dropping one for the slower movement for a total of 15 points. Not sure on the shield as D6 to D7 is a significant jump, so might be better off at 2 points

Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points

M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour, Two-handed Axe, Two Axes

Options:
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills
Weapon-masters: The Iron Hills Kingsguard may choose to fight with a two-handed axe, and ignore the -1 penalty on the Duel roll, or with 2 axes, and gain an extra attack.

Notes: Not strictly from the film, but I wanted some elite troops and it's likely Dain would travel with a retinue of hardy warriors, so I don't think they're out of place. On costing, I started with a Khazad Guard (11 points), added 4 for the Weapon-masters rule as it's pretty powerful) and one for the extra Fight. Total 16 points, makes them expensive but not prohibitively so.

Iron Hills Heroes:

Iron Hills Captain: 60 points

M5 F5/4+ S4 D7 A2 W2 C5 M2 W1 F1

Wargear: Dwarf Armour

Options:
Shield: 5 points
Two-Handed Weapon: 5 points
Ram: 10 points
Armoured Ram: 15 Points
Lance: 5 Points

Notes: Basically lifted from Erebor Captains, with options done relative to other heroes.

Dain of the Iron Hills: 180 points

M5 F6/- S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M3 W1 F3

Wargear:
Dwarf Heavy Armour
Hammer of The Iron Hills- This ancient hammer may be used in two hands with no penalty granting +1 on rolls to wound, or can be used in one hand, simply granting an extra attack.

Options:
War Pig: 20 points (M8 F3 S4 D5 A0 W2 C3)

Special Rules:
"Lets Give These Bastards A Smashing!" Dain's rousing, violent and utterly unrestrained war cries are a thing of legend among the Sons of Durin. All friendly Dwarves from the iron hills list and company of thorin within 12" of Dain count as in range of a Banner. In addition, they automatically pass all Courage tests they are required to take.

Headbutt: When Dain wins a combat with an enemy that rolls a 1(as its highest result) in the Duel roll, Dain siezes the opportunity to smash his hardened forehead into the enemy. He gains an extra attack in the following roll to Wound at S4 (this does not benefit from the bonus from his Hammer)

Taunt - any time in the Move or Shoot phase Dain may choose to Taunt an enemy within 6" not locked in combat. The target must immediately take a courage test which, if failed, causes the model to automatically move its full distance towards Dain and if possible charge him. This applies even if the target model has previously moved.
Notes: See below for changes and reasoning

So there's the bones of the list. Any feedback is welcome, and feel free to chip in with your own rules, scenarios and anything BotFA related.

**Wolf**

Hey I quite like what you have got so far ! If I'm understanding your pike and shield rule, you're simply saying they get a bonus from the shield if wielding a pike as well ? If that's right then that would work really well for the defence line they do in the film which ofcourse is amazing !

You missed off Dain's might will and fate, I may suggest 3 might 1 will 2 fate ? Perhaps 3 fate to resemble his haediness better ?

Also I dont think the kings guard chaps would have 1111

**Paradigm**

Hah, thanks for spotting that, damn sticking keys

Just added M3 W2 F2 to Dain, but I'm considering bumping it up to 3/3/3 as I do envision him as the Dwarf answer to the likes of Boromir of the Tower, Azog of Sauron and other complete beatstick heroes.

Yeah, the pike/shield rule is just lifted from the Easterlings actually, so I might just copy the exact wording from that when I dig out my rulebook. I had that epic shieldwall in mind when writing it, and figured it fitted with how they fight. Making them super-hardy in combat is fair when this list as it stands has no shooting without allies (not sure if should add bowmen or not).

**namiel**

Iron Hills Dwarf: 11 points (Dwarf)

M5 F4/- S3 D7 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Dwarf Armour, Shield

Options:
Pike: 1 point
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Phalanx: Models with this special rule take no penalty for using a pike and shield.
Shield wall: When 5 or more models are in base contact(not including supporting models) these models recieve a +1 to their defense as well as are not moved back should they lose in a duel roll. Additionally a model with this special rule may support another model with this special rule while shielding but may not strike if combat is won.

Dain of the Iron Hills: 175 points

M5 F6/- S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M3 W1 F3

Wargear:
Dwarf Heavy Armour
Hammer of The Iron Hills- This ancient hammer may be used in two hands with no penalty granting +1 on rolls to wound, or can be used in one hand, simply granting an extra attack.

Options:
War Pig: 20 points (M8 F3 S4 D5 A0 W2 C3)

Special Rules:
"Lets Give These Bastards A Smashing!" Dain's rousing, violent and utterly unrestrained war cries are a thing of legend among the Sons of Durin. All friendly Dwarves from the iron hills list and company of thorin within 12" of Dain count as in range of a Banner. In addition, they automatically pass all Courage tests they are required to take.

Headbutt: When Dain wins a combat with an enemy that rolls a 1(as its highest result) in the Duel roll, Dain siezes the opportunity to smash his hardened forehead into the enemy. He gains an extra attack in the following roll to Wound at S4 (this does not benefit from the bonus from his Hammer)

Above are the changes I would make

**Wolf**

Haha hey no worries, i only spotted it after reading it for the third time !

I think 3 of each for Dain would be suitable, how many does he have in the original rules ?

I'd say leave bowmen out as there was no sign of any ranged ability using goes from the dwarf army, though thinking about it i remember seeing them throw spears when they counter charge. Might that be a possibility ? Give them an option for throwing spears ?

**Paradigm**

Hmm, I like those changes to Dain, but I'd still put him at 200 points considering he has the stats to punch out most non-beatstick heroes and the mega-banner effect (given the range, he could easily account for 2 other banners, which is 50+ points on its own). The changes to Headbutt are good as well, I actually think yours works better against base troops which is probably a little more accurate.

As for the shield-wall rule, I was going to put something like that in (thinking 40k Deathwing Knights, actually) but I feel it could be a bit fiddly in practice. If I'm reading it right, there's scope to forgo Supporting (simply by not declaring it) to instead gain +1 D and the ability to not be pushed back, which seems like a very good trade to me. Maybe something like this:

Shieldwall: Any Iron Hills Warrior in base contact with 2 or more models with this rule is never pushed back should he lose a duel roll.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Throwing spears might be good, I might make that an either-or with the Pikes (both would be impractical and not make much sense, I think).

**namiel**

Paradigm wrote:
Hmm, I like those changes to Dain, but I'd still put him at 200 points considering he has the stats to punch out most non-beatstick heroes and the mega-banner effect (given the range, he could easily account for 2 other banners, which is 50+ points on its own). The changes to Headbutt are good as well, I actually think yours works better against base troops which is probably a little more accurate.

As for the shield-wall rule, I was going to put something like that in (thinking 40k Deathwing Knights, actually) but I feel it could be a bit fiddly in practice. If I'm reading it right, there's scope to forgo Supporting (simply by not declaring it) to instead gain +1 D and the ability to not be pushed back, which seems like a very good trade to me. Maybe something like this:

Shieldwall: Any Iron Hills Warrior in base contact with 2 or more models with this rule is never pushed back should he lose a duel roll.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Throwing spears might be good, I might make that an either-or with the Pikes (both would be impractical and not make much sense, I think).

Ok let me update my orginal post

Automatically Appended Next Post:

namiel wrote:
Iron Hills Dwarf: 11 points (Dwarf)

M5 F4/4+ S3 D7 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Dwarf Armour, Shield

Options:
Pike: 1 point
Throwing spears: 2 Points
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Phalanx: Models with this special rule take no penalty for using a pike and shield.
Shield wall: When 5 or more models are in base contact(not including supporting models) these models recieve a +1 to their defense as well as are not moved back should they lose in a duel roll. Only models in base contact with an enemy may benifit from this rule, furthermore any model benifiting from this rule may NOT strike if combat is won. Only supporting models may make strikes to wound.

Dain of the Iron Hills: 180 points

M5 F6/- S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M3 W1 F3

Wargear:
Dwarf Heavy Armour
Hammer of The Iron Hills- This ancient hammer may be used in two hands with no penalty granting +1 on rolls to wound, or can be used in one hand, simply granting an extra attack.

Options:
War Pig: 20 points (M8 F3 S4 D5 A0 W2 C3)

Special Rules:
"Lets Give These Bastards A Smashing!" Dain's rousing, violent and utterly unrestrained war cries are a thing of legend among the Sons of Durin. All friendly Dwarves from the iron hills list and company of thorin within 12" of Dain count as in range of a Banner. In addition, they automatically pass all Courage tests they are required to take.

Headbutt: When Dain wins a combat with an enemy that rolls a 1(as its highest result) in the Duel roll, Dain siezes the opportunity to smash his hardened forehead into the enemy. He gains an extra attack in the following roll to Wound at S4 (this does not benefit from the bonus from his Hammer)

Above are the changes I would make

updated

**Paradigm**

Yep, I think that's about right for Dain, so OP will be updated. I'll wait to see what others think of the Shieldwall bit as I still think that, while it would work thematically and mechanically, it's perhaps a little too complicated for the LotR system, which is usually doesn't require counting of specific models or placements.

Another idea:

Shieldwall: Models that are being supported by another model with this rule may Shield, even though this is not normally allowed. If they do so, they are never pushed back should they lose the subsequent duel roll.

**namiel**

One of the major reasons i put dain at 180 is basing him off imrahil. His stand fast rule applying only to dol amroth troops, same as dain. His stat line, along with might will and fate. I think that having dain at 180 is still a bit high, gandalf is only 170 and he would punk dain.

**Captain Galenus**

Looking nice and fun! I was in the process of doing my own Dain profile as well! Love his profile, but a few things i'd change, namely that OP bastard smashing rule. Nice and thematic but twelve inch courage insta-pass combined with the huge banner might get a few people miffed especially in small games. I'd change it to Stand Fast instead of the courage passing, similar in principle but a bit less powerful. Keep the twelve inch banner though, cos Dain's shouting isnpired me in the cinema! Otherwise love his profile, and i thought of this special Rule for a bit of fun:

Taunt - any time in the Move or Shoot phase Dain may choose to Taunt an enemy within 6" not locked in combat. The target must immediately take a courage test which, if failed, causes the model to automatically move its full dostance towards Dain and if possible charge him. This applies even if the target model has previously moved.

Just a bit of fun that would't really be used much but in can be good to break up battlelines etc.

Gotta go now but will look at other profiles later, all of which look awesome and thematic. Just need some models now...

**Paradigm**

Mega-Stand-Fast could work on Dain, I'll see what others say and change it if need be.

The Taunt rule is pretty good, and reminds me of a pretty much identical ability the Dwarf on The Third Age video game has, so I think that might go in. It is certainly precedented, given that it's a lesser Compel, so nothing OP.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, I've just got and had a look through the Art and Design book for BotFA, and there's some stuff in there that, while it didn't make the film, could be worth adding in here. In particular, Dwarf crossbows and Chariots I thought could add a little more variety in the IH list, so any thoughts on including them? I was thinking Crossbows could be a 1-point-and-swap-shield option on IH Warriors.

Also, going forward, what do you think we should have in terms of the Army of Azog and Bolg? One uber-list with Gundabad, Dol Guldur and various auxilluries like the Goblin Mercenaries, or separate lists for each?

**Captain Galenus**

Cool beans!

Dwarf crossbows would be pretty cool, though not too sure about the chariots... what about the giant crossbows seen in the trailer? Could be pretty cool.

For bad guys the whole schebangg would be cool: goblins, gundubads, dol guldur, giant bats, half trolls, catapult trolls, special rules for ground worms. And of course the battering ram troll!

With the dwarven shieldwall issue you could keep it the same as the OP and let supporting pikes fight through shielding front man? Also i think the king's guard special rule with two axes is a bit OP for a non-hero, especially as only someone big like dwalin has it out of all the other dwarves. I like the idea of something special for them but that may cause a few tears.

Just a few more spanners to through into the works from me!

**Paradigm**

Yeah, I'm thinking I'll go for an All of the Baddies list, throwing everything as one. There will be at least 3 types of basic troops that way (Gundabad, DG and Goblin), and then the fun stuff like the various Siege Trolls, the Ogres and the olog-hai style Orc Beserkers that lead Bolg's charge. I'll get to work on this as soon as we're done with the Dwarves, so feel free to start throwing in suggestions for the more wacky stuff.

I think I like that Shieldwall idea best, it's so simple but does help make them the defensive formation they should be. It could be as simple as:

Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.

So in practice, you forgo an attack in the Wound roll to gain one on the Duel roll. Seems fair to me.

I see what you mean about the Kingsguard, off the top of my head only Dwalin and Gimli have that kind of rule. One route I did consider was making them minor heroes (1 M/W/F, 2A and 1W) rather than Troops, but that would limit their use as a bodyguard, and make them more a spearhead for an attack, which while cool, is less what I had in mind while writing. Any ideas on how to put them a cut above normal troops without being OP?

**Captain Galenus**

Looking forward to the bad guys! If you want any profiles written up then feel free to ask, as i love creating statlines etc. but can't think of any others to fit the film...

Shieldwall rule looks nice now, fun to play with as well.

The Kingsguard issue is a problematic one, i tried making some elven guards/councillors that would go around with elrond as all minor heroes, but couldn't get it to work effectively either. I can't think of a special rule suitable for them at the mo but you could scour other rulebooks for special rules from other elites.

Also, there's the Sworn Protector special rule the 13 dwarves have for Thorin which sounds good, though i don't actually know what it does!

**Paradigm**

Working on the Army of Azog as we speak, but feel free to come up with any profiles you want, this is a collaborative project after all. And if you've any idea on how to represent Were-wyrms then that would be handy. Is there anything in particular you'd like to see. So far, I have:

Gundabad Orcs: Heavy Armour
Moria Orcs: Higher Strength, low D
Goblin Mercs: GT Goblins with Armour
Warg Outrirders: Mounted Orc Trackers
Gundabad Bezerkers: Half way between Orcs and Uruk Beserkers
Olog-Hai: Like Half-Trolls stat-wise
Various Troll Upgrades: Battering Ram helmet, wrecking ball limbs, passenger howdah

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Army of Azog and Bolg: Evil Troops

Orcs and Goblins

Gundabad Orc: 6 points
M6 F3/5+S3 D5 A1 W1 C2

Wargear: Heavy Armour

Options:
Shield: 1 point
Pike: 1 point
Orc Bow: 1 point
Banner: 25 points

Moria Orc: 6 points
M6 F3/5+ S4 D4 A1 W1 C2

Wargear: Armour

Options:
Spear: 1 point
2-handed Weapon: 1 point
Throwing Weapon: 2 points
Banner: 25 points

Goblin Mercenary: 5 points
M5 F3/- S3 D4 A1 W1 C2

Options:
Shield: 1 point
2-handed Weapon: 1 point

Notes: Simple math here, each one has got a 1 point bump over its base cost for an increase on 1 stat. Hopefully, this should lead to more variety and encourage people to take both Gundabad (tough) and Moria (killy) Orcs, and Goblin Mercs for the cheap and cheerful ones. I'm thinking the basic Orc profile will be available in the final list as well.

Elite Troops:

Warg Outriders: 11 points
Orc Outrider: M6 F3/4+ S3 D4 A1 W1 C2
Warg: M10 S4 D3 A0 W1 C2

Wargear:
Armour, Warg, Orc Bow

Options:
Throwing Weapons: 2 points

Notes: a shooty alternative to Warg Riders, better Shoot value but lack of shield option to balance.

Orc Beserker: 12 points
M6 F4/- S4 D4 A2 W1 C4

Wargear: Armour

Notes: A fightier Orc, but still with low Defence. I'm thinking maybe up it to M7, with a points increase, as they do run out ahead of Bolg's marching army.

Olog-Hai: 21 points
M6 F3/- S5 D5 A2 W2 C3

Wargear: Hand Weapon
Special Rules: Terror

Options:
2-handed Weapon: 1 point

Half-Trolls with lower F and C for -2 points

Trolls:

Siege Troll: 100 points
M6 F4/5+ S7 D7 A3 W3 C3

Wargear: Armour
Special Rules: Terror

Options:
2-Handed Weapon: 5 points
Heavy Armour: 10 points
Battering Helm: 15 points
Wrecker Limbs: 10 points
Howdah: 15 points

Battering Helm: The first time this model assaults a Siege Target (gate, doorway, or any other structure with wounds), do not make a duel roll. The Siege Target takes D6 Wounds, and the Troll takes D3 Wounds.

Wrecker Limbs: The Troll gains 1 Attack for each enemy model beyond the first that it is in base contact with.

Howdah: A Howdah may carry 2 Orcs, Goblins or Uruks as Passengers (these models may begin the game 'mounted'). These models may fire Ranged Weapons from the Howdah as if they had not moved, and each contribute a single attack to any Duel the Troll is involved in. Should the Troll be shot at, it is hit on a 1-4, while on a 5-6 the Passengers are hit. Should the Troll be killed, the Passengers immediately roll on the Thrown Rider chart.

Mountain Troll: 160 Points
M6 F3 S8 D8 A3 W4 C3

Wargear: None
Special Rules: Terror

Options:
Catapult: 80 points
Howdah: 25 points

Catapult:
S(10) Range: 18-96"
Indirect Fire, Area of Effect (see Mordor Sourcebook)

The Troll may only fire the Catapult if it has not moved this turn. The Catapult's crew play no part in the game, and may never act or be targeted by an enemy attack or ability. If the Troll is slain, the crew are assumed dead and the catapult destroyed.

Howdah: See above. Note that the larger size of the Mountain Troll allows up to four models to be carried rather than 2.

Notes: Trying to add some variety here as all kinds of Trolls turn up in BotFA, the Mountain Trolls are much tougher but much more expensive as well (too much so?) and the Catapult is an odd one, I've lifted the rules from the Mordor one with a few tweaks.

Monsters:

War Bats: 6 points
M10 F3 S2 D3 A1 W1 C2

Wargear: Claws and Teeth (hand weapon)
Special Rules:
Swarm: So long as there is another model with this rule within 3", this model passes all Courage tests
Fly: See main rules manual

War Beast: 4 points
M6 F3 S3 D3 A1 W1 C2
Wargear: Teeth and Claws (hand weapon)

Options: Must take at least one, and no more than 3, of the below:
Razor Teeth: The model gains 1 Attack: 2 points
Armoured Hide: The model is treated as wearing Heavy Armour: 2 points
Fast: The model increases its Move to 10: 2 points
Tough: The model gains 1 Wound: 5 points
Venomous: The model gains the Poisoned Special Rule on all its attacks: 2 points
Ferocious: On a turn it Charges, this model is treated as a Cavalry model, so gains an Extra Attack and its opponent is Knocked to the Ground should it win the Duel roll.
Great War Beast: The model replaces is profile with the one below: 20 points

M8 F3/- S5 D5 A2 W2 C4

Notes: The last one there is largely a 'build your own' as, especially in the various concept art books and backstory, there's all manner of creatures that Sauron uses, so I wanted the option to put that in here, at least as a bit of fun.

As ever, any thoughts welcome.

**Captain Galenus**

All seem pretty good! Good job. Only thing i'd say is it'd be cool to differentiate between the two main types of orc (thought they're pretty much the same in the film!) either by giving them different options or make one slightly more elitist. Will rack my brains for something more helpful.

I agree, the trolls would be pretty hard to do, but i think you've done them perfectly. Small suggestion would be to take out the two handed weapon because trolls generally have a big smashy thing that does lots of damage at their high strength anyway. Also other trolls in the game have never had need of that upgrade.

That warbeast is a great idea, a good chance for some custom models too.

I'm afraid i've only picked out things to change necause if i listed all the good things i'd run out of time and battery!

Quick idea for the were-wyrms, in games where reserves/deployment are rolled, when a warband rolls a 4+ the controlling player places a 4" marker and said warband may deploy in base contact/within 3".

Another way to do it is to have the WW count as their own warband are their deployment is rolled as usual. Whereever they deploy place a marker and friendly models may deploy from these holes.

Need rewording but general ideas are there!

Btw i'm still thinking about the Kingsguard special rule but i think they deserve something unique. A bit mundane, but the ability to shield could represent their skill with axes. Needs more synergy though!

**Paradigm**

I hear you on making the Orcs different, at the moment I've just split them with S3/Heavy Armour and S4/Armour to add some variety, but maybe I could take that further by giving one set the shield, spear and bow options (Azog's Moria lot, that seem to fight in formation more) and then 2-handed weapons and maybe Throwing Weapons for the less coherent and more killy Gundabad lot? I also want to add a more generally elite Orc profile, for Azog/Bolg's personal guards.

Good point on the Troll, I'll drop the 2-handed. Any ideas for other 'upgrades' (from the movie or just what would be cool)?

RE Kingsguard: How about allowing them to 'Shield', and then make a single attack (ie. Half what they would normally hit with) should they win? Or is that too much?

With Wyrms, I'm thinking maybe allowing a Warband to deploy within X" of any terrain feature on the board, chosen when the Warband becomes available. Although I do like your idea of just placing a marker (and there's some cool modelling opportunity there as well)

**Captain Galenus**

Good idea with the orcs, and a good way to differentiate them.

Hmmm kingsguard. I'm not too sure about that rule, kinda usurps basic rules too much imo.

The wyrms are a difficult one because they can't really have their own model and they don't really have much effect on a battle...

Anyhoooo, will sleep on it!

**Paradigm**

Yeah, I agree on the Kingsguard, I don't want to go down the 40k route of exceptions to exceptions to exceptions to rules, as it detracts too much from the simplicity of the rules. What about allowing them to use their weapons as a 2-Handed weapon, or use the Feint/Pierce Special Strikes. A few of Thorin's Dwarves have that, so there's a precedent.

With the Orcs, I think I'll go with:

Moria Orcs:; Heavy armour base, options for Shields, Pikes and Bows

Gundabad Orcs: S4 and Armour base, options for 2-handers, Throwing Weapons and Spears.

**Captain Galenus**

I like the idea of giving the kingsguard an extra special strike, though i don't have the list of them to hand. Giving them bash would be good but too much like grimhammers. Whirl? Representing swinging axe round and cutting off everyones head close to them? Feint could work as you suggested, could be pretty effective actually.

I like the idea for the different orcs, adds more character and variation to the army and also captures the feel of the films.

**Paradigm**

So what about 2-handed, Feint and Whirl for the Kingsguard? That gives them a tool to deal with heavily armoured targets or multiple lesser foes, without catapulting them to hero levels of killing power.

The variation in Orc options is in for certain; one of the things I liked most about BotFA was how the Orcs were at once varied by faction but distinct in faction in how they looked and fought, so if this can encourage people to throw in some Gundabad and Moria Orcs (with conversions, hopefully) then so much the better.

And it'll be a while before we get to it, but does anyone feel the Elven Halls list/profiles need redoing/expanding, or are they pretty much fine as they are? Of course, Thranduil will be getting Elk rules at the very least!

**namiel**

Paradigm wrote:
So what about 2-handed, Feint and Whirl for the Kingsguard? That gives them a tool to deal with heavily armoured targets or multiple lesser foes, without catapulting them to hero levels of killing power.

The variation in Orc options is in for certain; one of the things I liked most about BotFA was how the Orcs were at once varied by faction but distinct in faction in how they looked and fought, so if this can encourage people to throw in some Gundabad and Moria Orcs (with conversions, hopefully) then so much the better.

And it'll be a while before we get to it, but does anyone feel the Elven Halls list/profiles need redoing/expanding, or are they pretty much fine as they are? Of course, Thranduil will be getting Elk rules at the very least!

Honestly their is no difference in profiles from the wood elves to the gladhrim elves. The only difference is their spear/glaive. other then that its identical

**Captain Galenus**

Like that Kinsguard rule, captures an elitist feel nicely.

Tbh the Elves are fine, but definitely need a certain antlered beast...

**namiel**

Captain Galenus wrote:
Like that Kinsguard rule, captures an elitist feel nicely.

Tbh the Elves are fine, but definitely need a certain antlered beast...

This needs rules, why because it is the most gangster thing i have ever seen elves do......

**Paradigm**

Oh, yeah, when I get around to writing up some scenarios, you can bet your boots the Elven shield-jumping will be a special rule! To awesome to ignore!

So the consensus is that Elves are fine but need Elks? That's easy enough. I'll just round out the baddies then get onto that. Then it's just some odds and ends (expanded Laketown?) And then onto scenarios...

**namiel**

Paradigm wrote:
Oh, yeah, when I get around to writing up some scenarios, you can bet your boots the Elven shield-jumping will be a special rule! To awesome to ignore!

So the consensus is that Elves are fine but need Elks? That's easy enough. I'll just round out the baddies then get onto that. Then it's just some odds and ends (expanded Laketown?) And then onto scenarios...

lake town is fine, the elves are identical to gladhrim elves save for the glaive, only thranduil needs an elk. The elves were done justice in rules not in models. They totally blew that chance to sell tons of plastic kits to this guy alone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think of this change...........

Iron Hills Dwarf: 12 points (Dwarf)

M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Dwarf Armour

Options:
Pike and shield OR crossbow: Free
Throwing spears: 2 points (these were in the movie and should be an option)
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.

Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.

What is the rule that allows the vault warden team to get defense 9? I feel something like that could be added to this. I think that with what i suggested with them being 12 points a model it will really limit their numbers so i think their should be a way to make them def 8

Oh and this made me laugh

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points

M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C5

Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour

Options:
two-handed axe or two axes: free
Throwing axes: 2 points

Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills

**Paradigm**

namiel wrote:

lake town is fine.

I wasn't thinking of doing that much to them, but I was planning on adding profiles for Bain and Percy, both seem to be quite important in the film, Bain for how he interacts with Bard (could be some kind of inverse Bodyguard rule there) and Percy as he acts as the commander in Bard's absence, and it just adds a little more variety.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think of this change...........

Iron Hills Dwarf: 12 points (Dwarf)

M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Dwarf Armour

Options:
Pike and shield OR crossbow: Free
Throwing spears: 2 points (these were in the movie and should be an option)
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.

Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.

What is the rule that allows the vault warden team to get defense 9? I feel something like that could be added to this. I think that with what i suggested with them being 12 points a model it will really limit their numbers so i think their should be a way to make them def 8

I quite like that, simplifies things a bit with the Pike and Shield OR Crossbow choice. I have a feeling the ault Wardens just get D9 base on the front guy from the massive-ass shield. I also think D8 is a bit much for a basic troop, so maybe just drop them to 11 points a model? Or give them a rule that makes them D8 if supported by 2 Pikes (to represent the extra strength of the shieldwall/pike block), but I amost feel that would then warrant an increase in points. I mean, T8 is tougher than an Armoured Troll, or the same as a Dwarf Hero in Mithril, which I just think is too much for a bog-standard Troop.

Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points

M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C5

Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour

Options:
two-handed axe or two axes: free
Throwing axes: 2 points

Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills

What are you thinking the 2 Axes do here? Just +1A? Because that would be decent enough, but I almost feel they need something a bit more unique to really set them apart. Don't get me wrong, they've still got a very impressive statline, but for 16ppm, I'd say they should get a 2-hander and 2 Axes (or just 2A base). As it is, I'm not sure I see the reason for the price gap compared to, say, Fountain Guard with Shields (11ppm), which match them in S, A and D, as well as having Bodyguard.

**Captain Galenus**

I like the idea of pike/shield combo or crossbows, but i don't see the need for throwing spears because it looks like they just throw their pikes! Especially as we see some fighting with a sword afterwards. A bit too complicated to add higher defence special rules imo, shielding rule demonstrates aptly enough how strong they are behind the shieldwall.

Throwing axe upgrade is good but otherwise don't really see nedd for change of kingsguard as this could make game keeping a little harder to keep track of. Also like the characterful profile Paradigm wrote up. They don't want to be over priced as we might see the same thing happen as with grimhammers: awesome in every way just not worth it in serious games...

Percy would be fun to do, and Bain presents good opportunities for fun special rules. What about a profile for the women of Lake Town! Lol, could end up getting a bit sexist...

**Paradigm**

So the jury's out on the Kingsguard then? Throwing Axe (+2ppm) on top of 2A base, with 2-handed, Pierce and Whirl Attacks (16ppm base) seems fair to me, and characterful without being unprecedented, what with the Grimhammers and a few of Thorin's Co having access to multiple Special Strikes.

As for Laketown, I was considering having a profile for unarmed refugees (that could be used in any list really) that, while having terrible stats and being Unarmed, could have a very minor buffing effect on the units around them. But I think that might be the kind of thing best left for Scenarios than in the general list.

**namiel**

Paradigm wrote:
namiel wrote:

lake town is fine.

I wasn't thinking of doing that much to them, but I was planning on adding profiles for Bain and Percy, both seem to be quite important in the film, Bain for how he interacts with Bard (could be some kind of inverse Bodyguard rule there) and Percy as he acts as the commander in Bard's absence, and it just adds a little more variety.

i could see that simply to bring more troops and not run into the hobbit issue of running out of characters

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think of this change...........

Iron Hills Dwarf: 12 points (Dwarf)

M5 F4/4+ S3 D6 A1 W1 C4

Wargear: Dwarf Armour

Options:
Pike and shield OR crossbow: Free
Throwing spears: 2 points (these were in the movie and should be an option)
Banner: 25 points

Special Rules:
Unbreakable Phalanx: Iron Hills Dwarves may benefit from the Defence Bonus and Shielding special rule from Shields, even when using Pikes.

Shieldwall: The model may be supported by a Pike when Shielding, even though this is not normally allowed. Should this model win the Duel roll, the Supporting model may make strikes as usual.

What is the rule that allows the vault warden team to get defense 9? I feel something like that could be added to this. I think that with what i suggested with them being 12 points a model it will really limit their numbers so i think their should be a way to make them def 8

I quite like that, simplifies things a bit with the Pike and Shield OR Crossbow choice. I have a feeling the ault Wardens just get D9 base on the front guy from the massive-ass shield. I also think D8 is a bit much for a basic troop, so maybe just drop them to 11 points a model? Or give them a rule that makes them D8 if supported by 2 Pikes (to represent the extra strength of the shieldwall/pike block), but I amost feel that would then warrant an increase in points. I mean, T8 is tougher than an Armoured Troll, or the same as a Dwarf Hero in Mithril, which I just think is too much for a bog-standard Troop.

fair enough. I would call them done at 12points. You are right about the defense 8 i was just thinking normal dwarf warriors can get defense 7 and these iron hills guys have plenty of extra armor. Do we have rules for a dwarf crossbow? same as uruk hai?

Iron Hills Kingsguard: 16 points

M5 F5 S3 D7 A1 W1 C5

Wargear: Heavy Dwarf Armour

Options:
two-handed axe or two axes: free
Throwing axes: 2 points

Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Dain of the Iron Hills or thorin(kind under the mountian version only)

What are you thinking the 2 Axes do here? Just +1A? Because that would be decent enough, but I almost feel they need something a bit more unique to really set them apart. Don't get me wrong, they've still got a very impressive statline, but for 16ppm, I'd say they should get a 2-hander and 2 Axes (or just 2A base). As it is, I'm not sure I see the reason for the price gap compared to, say, Fountain Guard with Shields (11ppm), which match them in S, A and D, as well as having Bodyguard.

Yes a second hand weapon would give the second attack. options for an additional rule to add to the kings guard

A Warrior Born. must re-roll scores of 1 to Wound in combat.

Combat Synergy. If they are in base contact, Kings guard or dain ironfoot may choose to swap places with one another at the start of any Phase -this does not count as moving.

Boar Spear. A boar spear can be used as either a spear or a two-handed axe. Weapon option maybe????

Fearless. This model automatically passes Courage tests, but cannot use the rules for Shielding.