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 Pyeatt wrote:
But PLEASE!!! Lets get back to the point of the thread, which is patting yourself on the back for not buying GW, and condescending snipes like "you've never played a tactical game" guy

Its not condescension if its true.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

not sure how that's even possible.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

not sure how that's even possible.

Its not, AFAIK there is no way for a player to make an attack into an enemy deployment zone on the first turn of the game.

I can't think of a way to do it with ghost cheese that can't be touched.

I mean, if you're running incorporeal, an attack removes the
incorporeal for a turn. I'd like details before I assume one thing
or another is going on.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

Turn 1? Really? Really?

Let's see this tourney list you saw that auto wins on turn 1. Let's see the tournaments it's grabbed...

Incorporeal can be dealt with. Magic weapons, or on the turn they attack and they lose incorporeal...

Oh and tac implies take all comers. That includes incorporeal. It's just one more thing to be aware of in the game.

It's easily possible for games to end the bottom of round 1, assuming the first player overextends badly. Though that's really more due to player error than anything else. Certainly not untouchable ghosts.

PhantomViper wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

not sure how that's even possible.

Its not, AFAIK there is no way for a player to make an attack into an enemy deployment zone on the first turn of the game.

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

Drakeraids wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

not sure how that's even possible.

Its not, AFAIK there is no way for a player to make an attack into an enemy deployment zone on the first turn of the game.

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

I can think of a couple of ways that a player could kill his opponent at the bottom of turn 1 (Ravyn's feat-snipe-go) but these are akin to fool's mate in chess. Can it happen? Yes. Does it happen often or with some regularity? Not in my experience. Or I should say not after it happens once to a player or that player's friend and only then if it's their first game against those few casters. AFAIK there is no way to kill an opposing caster on the top of turn 1 without the opponent's willful cooperation.

Drakeraids wrote:

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

How? I'm doing the math and the most that I can get for Vayl is 35" from her board edge (Theme force AD Spell Martyr runs = 13" + 12" + 10" Obliteration range ). How do you get the extra 3.1" needed? If you add a couple of Seraphs to the list you could get an extra 2", but even then you're still short.

PhantomViper wrote:

Drakeraids wrote:

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

How? I'm doing the math and the most that I can get for Vayl is 35" from her board edge (Theme force AD Spell Martyr runs = 13" + 12" + 10" Obliteration range ). How do you get the extra 3.1" needed? If you add a couple of Seraphs to the list you could get an extra 2", but even then you're still short.

I didn't look up the relevant numbers, but...

Player 1 sets up his warcaster at 10" deployment line. Player 2 sets up his warcaster at the 10" line. Table is only 48" across, but the distance between the two warcasters is only 28" before the game starts. Warcaster 1 activates, moves up 5". Player 2 activates bottom of turn 1, moves up 5". There is now only 18" between the two warcasters. That's in a regular game.

In Steamroller, player 1 is at the 7" line, player 2 at 10" (that's 31" between the warcasters). If both are SPD 5, then at the bottom of turn 1, they will be 21" apart. Assuming player 2 is the Vayl player with the theme force and a Spell Martyer: Spell Martyer sets up at the 13" deployment line. Spell Martyer is SPD 6, so it can run 12" and is now sitting on the 25" line. Obliteration is a 10" spell, so Vayl will be able to arc a spell through the Spell Martyer up to the 35" line. Player 1 started at 10" (38" up the board), moved up to 15" (33" up the board) line... So yeah, Vayl has +/- 2" to play with, and Vayl doesn't even have to move. So top of turn 1 between Spell Martyer and opposing warcaster, there is only 25". Warcaster moves up 5", Spell Martyer runs- that distance is down to 8". Vayl now arcs spells and hits opposing warcaster.

One of the key skills you have to develop in Warmachine/Hordes is the ability to calculate threat ranges and, to a lesser extent, angles. In the above scenario, you could easily avoid a spell assassination here by not moving a full 5", or blocking line of sight. Or by taking out the Spell Martyers (if you have the range for it). Threat Ranges!

If it's any consolation, turn 1 assassination was far, far more prevalent in MK I, and Epic Vlad led the way. He could just about get his entire army into your deployment zone on turn 1. Or, at least enough of his army to kill your warcaster if you set them up on your deployment line.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

not sure how that's even possible.

I don't think I can hit you with Molik Karn turn one, I've done it top of two but not turn one.

 Tamwulf wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Drakeraids wrote:

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

How? I'm doing the math and the most that I can get for Vayl is 35" from her board edge (Theme force AD Spell Martyr runs = 13" + 12" + 10" Obliteration range ). How do you get the extra 3.1" needed? If you add a couple of Seraphs to the list you could get an extra 2", but even then you're still short.

I didn't look up the relevant numbers, but...

Player 1 sets up his warcaster at 10" deployment line. Player 2 sets up his warcaster at the 10" line. Table is only 48" across, but the distance between the two warcasters is only 28" before the game starts. Warcaster 1 activates, moves up 5". Player 2 activates bottom of turn 1, moves up 5". There is now only 18" between the two warcasters. That's in a regular game.

In Steamroller, player 1 is at the 7" line, player 2 at 10" (that's 31" between the warcasters). If both are SPD 5, then at the bottom of turn 1, they will be 21" apart. Assuming player 2 is the Vayl player with the theme force and a Spell Martyer: Spell Martyer sets up at the 13" deployment line. Spell Martyer is SPD 6, so it can run 12" and is now sitting on the 25" line. Obliteration is a 10" spell, so Vayl will be able to arc a spell through the Spell Martyer up to the 35" line. Player 1 started at 10" (38" up the board), moved up to 15" (33" up the board) line... So yeah, Vayl has +/- 2" to play with, and Vayl doesn't even have to move. So top of turn 1 between Spell Martyer and opposing warcaster, there is only 25". Warcaster moves up 5", Spell Martyer runs- that distance is down to 8". Vayl now arcs spells and hits opposing warcaster.

One of the key skills you have to develop in Warmachine/Hordes is the ability to calculate threat ranges and, to a lesser extent, angles. In the above scenario, you could easily avoid a spell assassination here by not moving a full 5", or blocking line of sight. Or by taking out the Spell Martyers (if you have the range for it). Threat Ranges!

If it's any consolation, turn 1 assassination was far, far more prevalent in MK I, and Epic Vlad led the way. He could just about get his entire army into your deployment zone on turn 1. Or, at least enough of his army to kill your warcaster if you set them up on your deployment line.

That is not what I'm talking about and AFAIK that is not what Drakeraids is talking about as well. If we assume that the "victim" warcaster moves, then there is a whole plethora of ways that he can die without moving again, it is in no way restricted to either Vayl or Hexeris.

We are (or at least I am) talking about killing someone in his deployment zone, top of round 1 using the SR deployment rules (frankly I haven't even heard of anyone playing non-SR by this point).

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

not sure how that's even possible.

Oh, I don't like that these people aren't saying that 40k is the best, most tactical game, but I don't know anything about the game they're comparing it against. I better just make stuff up about how their game is no better and mock them. That'll teach those infidels!

PhantomViper wrote:

That is not what I'm talking about and AFAIK that is not what Drakeraids is talking about as well. If we assume that the "victim" warcaster moves, then there is a whole plethora of ways that he can die without moving again, it is in no way restricted to either Vayl or Hexeris.

We are (or at least I am) talking about killing someone in his deployment zone, top of round 1 using the SR deployment rules (frankly I haven't even heard of anyone playing non-SR by this point).

Let's clarify: it's about a 'tourney list'' that wins on turn 1 with 'crazy ghost cheese'.

PhantomViper wrote:

Drakeraids wrote:

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

How? I'm doing the math and the most that I can get for Vayl is 35" from her board edge (Theme force AD Spell Martyr runs = 13" + 12" + 10" Obliteration range ). How do you get the extra 3.1" needed? If you add a couple of Seraphs to the list you could get an extra 2", but even then you're still short.

I'm not sure on the exact mechanics for Vayl, I think it requires her to be in tier so her warbeasts get +2 speed on the first round, and you need to use slipstream. I don't play her or have her cards, but its been done to me before, and it was explained in a manner that I could not find fault in. I just kinda shrugged and made a note to deploy in shield wall next time. Hexeris 1 I'm more familiar with. It goes like this, it requires you have a Razor Worm, a Titan Gladiator, and Aptimus Marketh. Its activation intensive and you basically give up a warbeast for free, but he can do it.

Both players deploy. You deploy Hexeris at the 7". They deploy something you want to nuke at the 10" (So 38 inches away from you). You advance deploy the Razor Wurm directly opposite at the 13". Marketh moves and puts Soul Slave on the Worm. Gladiator moves, pushes the Worm 1 inch to the 14. Casts Rush on it. Worm activates and runs 14 inches, base speed 6, making 12, then +2 from rush, taking it to the 28. Hexy has 14 inch control area, and is at the 7. He needs to move 7 inches to have the Worm in his control area to arc, so you move something 9~10 inches away and let him charge it. He then arcs an Obliteration 10 inches from the Razor Worm (38)~ into the enemy assuming they are on the deployment line.

Vayl does it better because she can feat and do two fully boosted ones, from closer IIRC. Its janky as hell and typically not worth it but you can do it.

Pyeatt wrote:
Warmahordes is no different. I've seen tourney lists that end the game turn 1 because someone brought TAC, and the other guy brought some crazy ghost cheese that couldnt be touched.

Yeah, tell me more. I wanna hear about the turn 1 winning ghost cheese list.

Unless of course it's a load of bollocks that you just made up...

But PLEASE!!! Lets get back to the point of the thread, which is patting yourself on the back for not buying GW, and condescending snipes like "you've never played a tactical game" guy

Point of the thread was answered several pages back. Then some poeple are saying that 40k is tactical as well. True that they are both tactical, to the same extent that a housecat (40k) is the same as a tiger (WMH). Both are cats, but one's a lot more cat than the other.

As to feeling good about not buying any more GW, that is based, I suspect, on relief about no longer playing a numpty game produced by a company that really appears not to give two figs about producing a good quality game or supporting it. They can't even be bothered to run their own forum, which pretty much every game company manages to do.


Gaz

Gazzor wrote:

Let's clarify: it's about a 'tourney list'' that wins on turn 1 with 'crazy ghost cheese'.

Yeah, tell me more. I wanna hear about the turn 1 winning ghost cheese list.

Unless of course it's a load of bollocks that you just made up...

Gaz

Um, I didn't make up anything gaz - you're quoting the wrong guy- thst quote by you is quoting me. And I'm literally just clarifying the statement, as it claimed by someone else.p

But yeah, I don't see it happening either...

Sorry mate. Post edited for clarity.

Was referring to the original poster that you were querying. Bad quoting etiquette on my part there. :(

And my language was a bit naughty, but I've not edited that.


Gaz

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Haight wrote:
The apotheosis sound bite you refer to is (paraphrased) "The development of apotheosis nearly broke the game from an internal process development point of view. We will probably never release another book with 4 casters per faction again."

They did not regret any of the casters, they regretted how much strain it put on their staff by not realizing how much work dropping 16 (.... 16 ? i forget if Apoth had any mercs... so its at least 16, maybe more... been a long time now)... casters would be and to make sure they were balanced, etc. Having been on that side of it, egads, i would not have wanted to be working on a 16 warcaster release. 2 per faction is a challenge enough, 3 is pants on head crazy. I can just imagine what 4 per faction was like.


Fair being fair: i wasn't an infernal at that time, so i have but i was very friendly with Kevin Clark already by the time Apoth dropped.


I don't think you'll be able to find a quote from a PPS'er that out and out states "The company's stance is that we regret this warcaster", or something along those lines. Especially around the late Kevin Clark, early David Carl era's of development. If you can i'd be curious to see who it was from - i.e., was it from one of the guys higher up the ladder, or PPS_TIMMUH who worked for a summer as a caster.

Look at the name dropper! LOL

I can back up/support everything Haight says about this. PP has NEVER expressed regret over a model (and never will!). They may say how much work, time, and effort they put into something and it nearly broke them. they might issue errata later about a model (which they have done only a handful of times) , but never have they ever said "...wish we hadn't made such a model..." or some such, and if they did, I want to see the quote, time, and place so I can give it to Matt Wilson and watch him go ballistic and probably fire the person that said it.

Yeah, just... knowing who and what i know, if someone came out and publically said that, they'd be in a meeting pretty quick i think getting their donkey-cave chewed apart. I imagine it's the same at most companies.


BTW... good to "see" you Tam. How you been ? I've been flirting with the idea of picking up cygnar again. There's a good crew at the local store, and my boy's of pokemon playing age.... the warmachine players just happen to play on the same day as the pokemon kids, soooooo....


EDIT: just read the rest of the thread catching up.

... so people still complain about incorporeal ?! Did i just time warp back to Escalation era where denny and 2 pistol wraiths, a bunch of arcs, and season to taste was the bees knees !?


EDIT 2: Interesting to whomever posted the thing by PPS_DC that said there was a goof. Good on them for admitting it and moving forward. I always liked DC for the most part. Saw eye to eye on most stuff, battled on a very small number of things, and ultimately think we managed to accomplish a nice amount of work together. One thing i appreciate(d) about him was he always shot from the hip, there was very little PC beating around the bush. If an issue were dead or moot, it was dead or moot, thanks for your input, lets move on. It helped you not beat dead horses that weren't going to magically get less dead.

If you are losing to crazy ghost cheese that cant be touched with a TAC list you clearly havent got a TAC list, a TAC list should take all comers, including incopreal stuff and every kind of crazy cute cheese that can be thrown at you

 DukeBadham wrote:
If you are losing to crazy ghost cheese that cant be touched with a TAC list you clearly havent got a TAC list, a TAC list should take all comers, including incopreal stuff and every kind of crazy cute cheese that can be thrown at you

The problem is the term "TAC list" in 40k has evolved into this generic jack-of-all-trades thing, and with the current edition of 40k that's not even in the realm of an effective play style. With WM/H, a TAC list *can* take on all-comers, so there seems to be some language disparity.

To be fair, guys, T3 Bradigus lists can assassinate an enemy warcaster/warlock in their deployment zone. Not turn one, mind you, but that dude is crazy right now.

Other then that, if you lose bottom of one/top of two, it's entirely your fault because you made a mistake. It's not like getting shot off the table with Wave Serpents, but rather you moved into engagement range of a long range threat and didn't protect yourself. My best is top of two Mortenebra who waddled out of her deployment zone and camped no focus. Vayl2 enjoyed that greatly.

Drakeraids wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Drakeraids wrote:

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

How? I'm doing the math and the most that I can get for Vayl is 35" from her board edge (Theme force AD Spell Martyr runs = 13" + 12" + 10" Obliteration range ). How do you get the extra 3.1" needed? If you add a couple of Seraphs to the list you could get an extra 2", but even then you're still short.

I'm not sure on the exact mechanics for Vayl, I think it requires her to be in tier so her warbeasts get +2 speed on the first round, and you need to use slipstream. I don't play her or have her cards, but its been done to me before, and it was explained in a manner that I could not find fault in. I just kinda shrugged and made a note to deploy in shield wall next time. Hexeris 1 I'm more familiar with. It goes like this, it requires you have a Razor Worm, a Titan Gladiator, and Aptimus Marketh. Its activation intensive and you basically give up a warbeast for free, but he can do it.

Both players deploy. You deploy Hexeris at the 7". They deploy something you want to nuke at the 10" (So 38 inches away from you). You advance deploy the Razor Wurm directly opposite at the 13". Marketh moves and puts Soul Slave on the Worm. Gladiator moves, pushes the Worm 1 inch to the 14. Casts Rush on it. Worm activates and runs 14 inches, base speed 6, making 12, then +2 from rush, taking it to the 28. Hexy has 14 inch control area, and is at the 7. He needs to move 7 inches to have the Worm in his control area to arc, so you move something 9~10 inches away and let him charge it. He then arcs an Obliteration 10 inches from the Razor Worm (38)~ into the enemy assuming they are on the deployment line.

Vayl does it better because she can feat and do two fully boosted ones, from closer IIRC. Its janky as hell and typically not worth it but you can do it.

I'm the exact opposite because I play Legion but I know very little about Skorne.

Just an FYI though, in that Hexeris example that you gave, the Obliteration would still have automatically missed. You need to have more than 38" for the spell to be within range, especially since the latest clarification that states that touching something isn't considered within anymore.

Bottom line for me is that 40k seems to boil down to who has the biggest guns and then just rolling buckets of dice (which can be fun, granted) versus a lot more planning and timing - Do I activate this unit first, or should I activate my Warcaster, use this spell, pop my feat and then activate everything else so they benefit. There's a myriad of depth in Warmachine play virtually the entire game that 40k just doesn't seem to have because while there's a lot of special rules in 40k, most of them are just bloat and don't actually add anything of value.

PhantomViper wrote:

Drakeraids wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Drakeraids wrote:

Vayl and Hexeris can both spell you from your deployment zone if they go first. I think that's it though.

How? I'm doing the math and the most that I can get for Vayl is 35" from her board edge (Theme force AD Spell Martyr runs = 13" + 12" + 10" Obliteration range ). How do you get the extra 3.1" needed? If you add a couple of Seraphs to the list you could get an extra 2", but even then you're still short.

I'm not sure on the exact mechanics for Vayl, I think it requires her to be in tier so her warbeasts get +2 speed on the first round, and you need to use slipstream. I don't play her or have her cards, but its been done to me before, and it was explained in a manner that I could not find fault in. I just kinda shrugged and made a note to deploy in shield wall next time. Hexeris 1 I'm more familiar with. It goes like this, it requires you have a Razor Worm, a Titan Gladiator, and Aptimus Marketh. Its activation intensive and you basically give up a warbeast for free, but he can do it.

Both players deploy. You deploy Hexeris at the 7". They deploy something you want to nuke at the 10" (So 38 inches away from you). You advance deploy the Razor Wurm directly opposite at the 13". Marketh moves and puts Soul Slave on the Worm. Gladiator moves, pushes the Worm 1 inch to the 14. Casts Rush on it. Worm activates and runs 14 inches, base speed 6, making 12, then +2 from rush, taking it to the 28. Hexy has 14 inch control area, and is at the 7. He needs to move 7 inches to have the Worm in his control area to arc, so you move something 9~10 inches away and let him charge it. He then arcs an Obliteration 10 inches from the Razor Worm (38)~ into the enemy assuming they are on the deployment line.

Vayl does it better because she can feat and do two fully boosted ones, from closer IIRC. Its janky as hell and typically not worth it but you can do it.

I'm the exact opposite because I play Legion but I know very little about Skorne.

Just an FYI though, in that Hexeris example that you gave, the Obliteration would still have automatically missed. You need to have more than 38" for the spell to be within range, especially since the latest clarification that states that touching something isn't considered within anymore.

Lord Arbiter Hexeris's warbeast bond requires CMD not CNTRL,
a difference of 6". I don't know if that's enough to pull off this
particular trick, but then again I'm too lazy to figure it out. Because
math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:
To be fair, guys, T3 Bradigus lists can assassinate an enemy warcaster/warlock in their deployment zone. Not turn one, mind you, but that dude is crazy right now.

If it's not turn 1, how are you still in the deployment zone? Unless you've
parked there, then this isn't really the same thing. I think the example they
were citing ("making up" or "inventing". If this were politics I'd use the term
"fabricating") was meant to illustrate a win condition allowing for absolutely
no response. Bradigus theme force comes close, but not quite in the way
as posted.

He is crazy right now though. Totes cray cray.

This thread made me google "ghost cheese", and I found adorable lil string cheeses with ghost-y eyes drawn on the wrapper...

Also, everyone is trying to "deal with Bradigus" currently, because he's new and people tend to figure out the crazy "I win" tactics before they figure out the counters.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
...people tend to figure out the crazy "I win" tactics before they figure out the counters.

This can't be true! It's too logical to be true!!!

WayneTheGame wrote:
Bottom line for me is that 40k seems to boil down to who has the biggest guns and then just rolling buckets of dice (which can be fun, granted) versus a lot more planning and timing - Do I activate this unit first, or should I activate my Warcaster, use this spell, pop my feat and then activate everything else so they benefit. There's a myriad of depth in Warmachine play virtually the entire game that 40k just doesn't seem to have because while there's a lot of special rules in 40k, most of them are just bloat and don't actually add anything of value.

Ok look another massive over simplification of one game and "oh the game I actually like is just soo OMG awesome"

40k and WMH are very different - they bring different things and people enjoy different things about them - that's why these threads are pointless - I might as well start a thread of "why Warmachine is not fun" and post my friends and my views on this - but what's the point?

 Mr Morden wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Bottom line for me is that 40k seems to boil down to who has the biggest guns and then just rolling buckets of dice (which can be fun, granted) versus a lot more planning and timing - Do I activate this unit first, or should I activate my Warcaster, use this spell, pop my feat and then activate everything else so they benefit. There's a myriad of depth in Warmachine play virtually the entire game that 40k just doesn't seem to have because while there's a lot of special rules in 40k, most of them are just bloat and don't actually add anything of value.

Ok look another massive over simplification of one game and "oh the game I actually like is just soo OMG awesome"

40k and WMH are very different - they bring different things and people enjoy different things about them - that's why these threads are pointless - I might as well start a thread of "why Warmachine is not fun" and post my friends and my views on this - but what's the point?

This is fair, but having played both games what 40k brings to the table isn't anything in the way of tactical depth, or a meaningful competitive frame work.

It's great for pushing dudes around without having to track a bunch of variables or a complex possibility space. It's great for larking at random moments or interactions. It handles being "paused" better, doesn't require precision measuring and all-in-all just has lower overhead on moment to moment play.

These are fine things to like. These might even be things someone cares about and makes/breaks a game for them. All valid reasons to like 40k over the competition, including WM/H. However, I just don't see the space for making a genuine, informed argument that 40k offers the same quality of tactical game play,diversity with impact or substantive system mastery.

 Mr Morden wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Bottom line for me is that 40k seems to boil down to who has the biggest guns and then just rolling buckets of dice (which can be fun, granted) versus a lot more planning and timing - Do I activate this unit first, or should I activate my Warcaster, use this spell, pop my feat and then activate everything else so they benefit. There's a myriad of depth in Warmachine play virtually the entire game that 40k just doesn't seem to have because while there's a lot of special rules in 40k, most of them are just bloat and don't actually add anything of value.

Ok look another massive over simplification of one game and "oh the game I actually like is just soo OMG awesome"

40k and WMH are very different - they bring different things and people enjoy different things about them - that's why these threads are pointless - I might as well start a thread of "why Warmachine is not fun" and post my friends and my views on this - but what's the point?

We're not saying it's better, just far more in depth in terms of strategy, because it is. If you don't like to think out every move and just want to toss dice around, then WMH isn't for you. That's not right or wrong, fun is subjective. But WMH is more tactical and in-depth in terms of gameplay.