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So my local store is planning a kill team tourney in about 2 months to and me and some mates have decided to use this as an opportunity to start a new modelling/painting mini project. i got AM, and have 4 ideas for lists, but cannot decide which to do. nothing has been purchased yet so any suggestions are welcome.

I'm sure most of you know, but just in case here's the basic rules for kill teams as we are running it:

Selections- 0-1 elite, 0-2 troop, 0-1 fast attack. No HQ or Heavy Support
No model with more than 3 wounds, no model with 4 hull points or more.
Must have AT LEAST 3 models with a toughness value.
Armour Total value (Front+Side+Rear) max 33. e.g rhinos ok (11+11+10= 32), dreadnoughts not ok (12+12+10=34)
no 2+ armour saves
no flyers
no deep striking

Heres the lists:

List 1
5 Rattlings
Armoured Sentinel- Heavy Flamer
Armoured Sentinel- Missile Launcher
Armoured Sentinel- Plasma Cannon, Camo Netting
=200

List 2
10 Vets- 3 Meltaguns, Camo/Snare Mines
Armoured Sentinel- Plasma Cannon
Armoured Sentinel- Plasma Cannon
=200

List 3
3 Bullgryns
Armoured Sentinel- Plasma Cannon
=195

List 4
10 Vets- 3 Metlaguns
10 Rough Riders
=200

Personally i see potential in all of them, rough riders could be brutal in KT due to I5, Str5 and AP3 on charge, but then armoured sentinels with blasts (plas of missile) or templates with AV12 on the front will be very effective as well.

Thoughts please Dakka. which list is better? any suggestions.

What about 3 armored sentinels with auto cannons and a vet squad? Auto cannons can deal with almost anything your opponents gonna throw at you

Fonsio wrote:
What about 3 armored sentinels with auto cannons and a vet squad? Auto cannons can deal with almost anything your opponents gonna throw at you

Thanks for the reply.

Agreed autocannons are good but i figured a mix of weapons and blasts/templates allows the list to deal with more things.

plus templates and/or not rolling to hit is better for guard due to BS3.

That was my thinking anyway.

I agree with Fonsio - autocannons are fantastic. However, if you give every sentinel a long range gun, you're wasting the utility of the Sentinels' armor. Arming them with heavy flamers will force you to get in close and take pressure off your squishy infantry.

List 1 is a glass cannon. Looks like fun, but I don't know how much mileage you'll get out of it. The missile launcher and plasma cannon won’t see a lot of use in a Kill Team-scale fight. Think about trading in those expensive upgrades for two more ratlings and using a lone autocannon Sentinel to take on vehicles.

List 2 has potential. Your meltagunners will probably find themselves without targets, and if something melta-worthy does take to the field, your meltagunners will be mowed down before they can get close to it. Consider replacing the meltagunners with a veteran autocannon team and trading in the plasma cannons for a third Sentinel.

List 3 is illegal, as you do not have at least four non-vehicle/non-swarm models. (I’m going by the rules in the Kill Team book.) Four bullgryns would be funny, but would probably be mulched fairly quickly as they trudge across the field towards a target.

List 4 sounds like it might be really good (Hammer of Wrath followed by three I5 Str5 AP3 attacks is nothing to sneeze at), but I have absolutely no experience fighting with or against Rough Riders, so I really can't say. Your meltagunners still have no way of getting to a target, so think about replacing them with an autocannon team. You should have enough points left over to buy the Forward Sentries upgrade, three sniper rifles, and a boltgun for the vet sergeant.

Thanks for the comment SKWAAAARK.

I agree with Fonsio - autocannons are fantastic. However, if you give every sentinel a long range gun, you're wasting the utility of the Sentinels' armor. Arming them with heavy flamers will force you to get in close and take pressure off your squishy infantry.

I do agree that autocannons are very good, however as mentioned my concern was mediocre BS made me lean towards blast weaponary. and lets face it a plasma cannon is the same cost as 2 flamers, its a bargain on a front armour 12 walker IMHO.

List 1 is a glass cannon. Looks like fun, but I don't know how much mileage you'll get out of it. The missile launcher and plasma cannon won’t see a lot of use in a Kill Team-scale fight. Think about trading in those expensive upgrades for two more ratlings and using a lone autocannon Sentinel to take on vehicles.

Not sure i agree that its a glass cannon, could you explain why? weapon choices give me variety though defo want to keep a plasma in there because i know at least 1 opponent is running 7-8 sternguard, so ap2 at range will be awesome.

List 2 has potential. Your meltagunners will probably find themselves without targets, and if something melta-worthy does take to the field, your meltagunners will be mowed down before they can get close to it. Consider replacing the meltagunners with a veteran autocannon team and trading in the plasma cannons for a third Sentinel.

good points well made. so what would that list look like for reference? sorry don't have my codex to hand.

List 3 is illegal, as you do not have at least four non-vehicle/non-swarm models. (I’m going by the rules in the Kill Team book.) Four bullgryns would be funny, but would probably be mulched fairly quickly as they trudge across the field towards a target.

i was told it was 3, fair enough if thats the case. although i agree it would be fun i think i'm leaning away from it if i have to take 4 as the list loses its ranged firepower.

List 4 sounds like it might be really good (Hammer of Wrath followed by three I5 Str5 AP3 attacks is nothing to sneeze at), but I have absolutely no experience fighting with or against Rough Riders, so I really can't say.

This is what keeps floating through my mind. apart from how fragile they are, i am struggling to see on paper how 10 of them is bad based on their combat output at this points level.

you need 4, 1 captain and 3 specialists.

 M0ff3l wrote:
you need 4, 1 captain and 3 specialists.

Fair enough, leaning away from this on anyway.

any other thoughts on the lists?

List 2 looks best to me, quite simply seems the most balanced in my eyes.

 Cothonian wrote:
List 2 looks best to me, quite simply seems the most balanced in my eyes.

I think its probably the most balanced as well, though i still really like list 1 as well.

I do agree that autocannons are very good, however as mentioned my concern was mediocre BS made me lean towards blast weaponary. and lets face it a plasma cannon is the same cost as 2 flamers, its a bargain on a front armour 12 walker IMHO.

Plasma cannons vs. Heavy flamethrowers:
I feel plasma cannons are not as good as heavy flamethrowers because they’re expensive, fire only one shot with low BS, and the small blast won’t hit more than one enemy in a battle where every model is a unit. Heavy flamethrowers are free, never miss, can hit multiple opponents, annihilate units hiding in buildings or open-topped transports, can fire a wall of death overwatch attack, and don’t waste the utility of the Sentinels’ armor.

Sternguard will be a challenge with either choice. If you’re really worried about them, you might want to consider sticking with the stock multilaser. It won’t negate their armor, but you’ll outrange them, wound on twos, and you’ll get three times the shots as a plasma cannon.

Not sure i agree that its a glass cannon, could you explain why? weapon choices give me variety though defo want to keep a plasma in there because i know at least 1 opponent is running 7-8 sternguard, so ap2 at range will be awesome.

As for the glass cannon comment, five out of eight models are T2. Yes, you have a variety of weapons, but your team lacks variety in roles on the field. Seven out of eight models have the job of “hang way back and fire once.”

good points well made. so what would that list look like for reference? sorry don't have my codex to hand.

I would probably build List 2 like
Vet Sgt. with boltgun
3xVets with sniper rifles
4xVets
Vet autocannon team
3xSentinels with heavy flamethrowers

I would probably build List 2 like
Vet Sgt. with boltgun
3xVets with sniper rifles
4xVets
Vet autocannon team
3xSentinels with heavy flamethrowers

Interesting build.

that list is 200 on the dot isn't it?

that list is 200 on the dot isn't it?

197 spacebucks.

edit: ...but, upon reflection, maybe you should switch one of the heavy flamethrowers back to a multilaser.

had a bit of a rethink:

only 2 lists now

List 1
5 rattlings
Armoured Sentinal- Hunter Killer
Armoured Sentinal- Hunter Killer
Armoured Sentinal- Hunter Killer
=200

Or

List 2
10 Vets- Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Flamer
Armoured Sentinal
Armoured Sentinal
Armoured Sentinal
=200

Giving up on the Rough Riders?

List 2 definitely, the HK missiles at this point level will probably have no targets, plus the auto cannon can probably hit anything your opponent can bring anyway

In kill team rules, if you wanted to take conscripts would you still have to take the whole platoon?

If not;

Armoured sentinel, HF, 40pts
Heavy Weapons team, 2x AC, 1x Mortar 70pts
Conscripts x 30, 90pts

I know when conscripts break they break bad but your opponent is going to have to chew a lot of them up while being hit by AC/Mortar fire and ignoring your sentinel charging up before they do.

If so; Why not go all infantry and drop the sentinels?

Platoon CS, AC 40pts
Infantry Platoon, AC, Flamer 65
Infantry Platoon, AC, Flamer 65
Ratlings 30pts

Both lists have a good mix of hang back and shoot/move forward and toast, while not allowing you opponent to focus fire on a handful of models.

Giving up on the Rough Riders?

its more a case of knowing what to expect from the players taking part. most will be able to deal with rough riders at range. However few will have enough ranged fire power strong enough to down 3 av 12 walkers.

List 2 definitely, the HK missiles at this point level will probably have no targets, plus the auto cannon can probably hit anything your opponent can bring anyway

i am seeing validity in both lists, HK are useful as they present either a good AT weapon or simply can be used to target that pesky meltagun or plasmagun. killing that in the context of kill teams and my army list(s) makes them worth every point.

In kill team rules, if you wanted to take conscripts would you still have to take the whole platoon?

units still have to be comply with normal unit selection so i would say so yes.

f so; Why not go all infantry and drop the sentinels?

Platoon CS, AC 40pts
Infantry Platoon, AC, Flamer 65
Infantry Platoon, AC, Flamer 65
Ratlings 30pts

Both lists have a good mix of hang back and shoot/move forward and toast, while not allowing you opponent to focus fire on a handful of models.

Whilst i quite like the idea of massed guard, i really don't fancy painting loads of guard.

Also the issue i see with pure infantry is that every weapon the opponent has can kill guard. running sentinels removes that luxury from the opponent.

 mixer86 wrote:

Whilst i quite like the idea of massed guard, i really don't fancy painting loads of guard.

Ha ha ha, I feel your pain!

 mixer86 wrote:

Whilst i quite like the idea of massed guard, i really don't fancy painting loads of guard.

Also the issue i see with pure infantry is that every weapon the opponent has can kill guard. running sentinels removes that luxury from the opponent.

True. But he only has to kill the few squishy infantry accompanying them (and the rest will probably run off once the team is broken). Granted, the walkers will stick around, but expect to lose their support - and the associated victory point for being broken - fast.

By comparison, stopping 30+ infantry is bloody hard because whilst you may have (for example) a multilaser on a sentinal, that gun can kill precisely one guy. It can kill him very dead indeed, but his nearby mates are fine.

I'm not a fan of plasma cannons in kill-team - you don't need plasma to deal with 2+ saves, and you really, really can't afford to miss a turn of fire with an expensive heavy weapon due to gets hot!, even if it does no damage to you, but some area effect weapons are a good idea for that one time that you find yourself trying to fend off twenty stormboyz or thirty-five guardsmen.


With regards to the painting, I sympathise. One of the best painters I know proudly showed me a test model for a guardsman a few years ago.
"It looks fantastic." I said.
"Thanks!"
"How long did it take to paint?"
"A couple of hours, why?"
"You do fully understand that that's a five point model which comes in fifty-strong squads, yes?"
".....Oh. Err....Something involving more ink washes and drybrushing may be in order?"

locarno24 wrote:

 mixer86 wrote:

Whilst i quite like the idea of massed guard, i really don't fancy painting loads of guard.

Also the issue i see with pure infantry is that every weapon the opponent has can kill guard. running sentinels removes that luxury from the opponent.

True. But he only has to kill the few squishy infantry accompanying them (and the rest will probably run off once the team is broken). Granted, the walkers will stick around, but expect to lose their support - and the associated victory point for being broken - fast.

By comparison, stopping 30+ infantry is bloody hard because whilst you may have (for example) a multilaser on a sentinal, that gun can kill precisely one guy. It can kill him very dead indeed, but his nearby mates are fine.

I'm not a fan of plasma cannons in kill-team - you don't need plasma to deal with 2+ saves, and you really, really can't afford to miss a turn of fire with an expensive heavy weapon due to gets hot!, even if it does no damage to you, but some area effect weapons are a good idea for that one time that you find yourself trying to fend off twenty stormboyz or thirty-five guardsmen.


With regards to the painting, I sympathise. One of the best painters I know proudly showed me a test model for a guardsman a few years ago.
"It looks fantastic." I said.
"Thanks!"
"How long did it take to paint?"
"A couple of hours, why?"
"You do fully understand that that's a five point model which comes in fifty-strong squads, yes?"
".....Oh. Err....Something involving more ink washes and drybrushing may be in order?"

i understand what you are saying but i know for a fact the only horde army turning up to this tourney is an ork player with near 60 grots, not something i'm worried about whichever list i run.

i am tempted by a couple of missile launcher sentinels for the flexibilty of either high str of blast effect.

i don't see heavy flamers as a great option, it relies on the sentinel being close enough to the enemy where meltaguns can get within metla range and also means they are close enough that the enemy can get to side or rear armour, rendering the AV12 irrelevant.

Missiles and Mutli-Lasers allow me to our range the enemy, whilst having a good str value to still trouble vehicles.

most will be able to deal with rough riders at range.

Any individual guardsman is easy to deal with at range. Putting down ten cavalry units before they can charge into melee will be a challenge for most enemy kill teams, especially when fire from the veteran long-range specialists at the rear of your lines will be taking out their most effective shooters.

HK are useful as they present either a good AT weapon or simply can be used to target that pesky meltagun or plasmagun.

Hunter-killers are indeed good for anti-tank, but in a Kill Team-scale fight, you won’t find a lot of armor. You’re better off using long-range guns (autocannons, sniper rifles, multilasers) to take out enemy weapon specialists. Of these, autocannons are the best at dealing with both light vehicles and heavy infantry.

i understand what you are saying but i know for a fact the only horde army turning up to this tourney is an ork player with near 60 grots, not something i'm worried about whichever list i run.

A 60-strong grot team sounds like a very challenging opponent. Remember – you might only have five rounds of shooting. How many units can you reliably put down in five rounds?

i don't see heavy flamers as a great option, it relies on the sentinel being close enough to the enemy where meltaguns can get within metla range and also means they are close enough that the enemy can get to side or rear armour, rendering the AV12 irrelevant.

Yes, it is true that a heavy flamethrower strategy would require that you send your forces into harm’s way. You can reduce the threat of enemy weapon specialists by prioritizing their destruction with your long-range guns, avoiding them, or charging your walkers into melee with them.

i know at least 1 opponent is running 7-8 sternguard...
...i know for a fact the only horde army turning up to this tourney is an ork player with near 60 grots...
its more a case of knowing what to expect from the players taking part.

What else do you know about the opposing forces? Perhaps we can give better advice if we know what you're up against.

Any individual guardsman is easy to deal with at range. Putting down ten cavalry units before they can charge into melee will be a challenge for most enemy kill teams, especially when fire from the veteran long-range specialists at the rear of your lines will be taking out their most effective shooters.

The issue would be finding decent models for them.

You’re better off using long-range guns (autocannons, sniper rifles, multilasers) to take out enemy weapon specialists. Of these, autocannons are the best at dealing with both light vehicles and heavy infantry.

I agree about utilising range, though i struggle to see how an autocannon is better against heavy infantry. most infantry regardless is T4 at best, so both it and multilaser wound on 2' s but the laser has more shots. Against vehicles i concur.

A 60-strong grot team sounds like a very challenging opponent. Remember – you might only have five rounds of shooting. How many units can you reliably put down in five rounds?

hence the consideration of missile launchers. provides flexibility as a weapon, combined with a flamer and grenade blast from the vets potentially. could also consider a mortar heavy weapons team over an autocannon?

Yes, it is true that a heavy flamethrower strategy would require that you send your forces into harm’s way. You can reduce the threat of enemy weapon specialists by prioritizing their destruction with your long-range guns, avoiding them, or charging your walkers into melee with them.

true, although marine armys will happily charge and krak grenade me if i am close enough and DE will probably have a heat lance or two.

What else do you know about the opposing forces? Perhaps we can give better advice if we know what you're up against.

don't know lists exactly but:

Marines- sternguard spam
2 Wolves- 1 is likely to run thunderwolfs, the other is running a lone wolf and 15 or so fenrisian wolfs (V.cool idea)
2 DE- looking at grotesques or scourges here
Nids- likely genestealers
Orks- all the grots in the world
2 guards- 1 is me, the other i don't really know much about, i expct 1 sentinel from him though.
1 Eldar- likely to be jetbike spam

If I take krak grenades in a squad, can throw them without limits? Not like 1 grenade per phase as normal game?

I honestly don't know why you posted your lists. These people have given you good ideas, and while that doesn't mean you have to accept them all you've just completely defended your original build. If you aren't going to change your stuff, or even listen to change, just run what you were going to run initially.

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:
I honestly don't know why you posted your lists. These people have given you good ideas, and while that doesn't mean you have to accept them all you've just completely defended your original build. If you aren't going to change your stuff, or even listen to change, just run what you were going to run initially.

Ok.

I honestly don't know why you would take the time to make that statement. did it make you feel big?

Completely useless post and you didn't even give your opinion on the lists.

I have agreed with people who have made good suggestions. are you saying that i should blindly accept everything without challenging the points made?

its called discussion.

bless you for trying to contribute though. i appreciate the effort.

You're only making my point. I'm not trying to bully you. I understand you've listened, but you've made no changes. Even for arguments sake, lets say your list is perfect and you didn't want to change. Why post it for criticism? I even said in my original statement you don't have to accept all the criticism, but you came in asking for advice and while you acknowledged other people, you basically changed nothing.

Hi there, thanks for asking our opinions. Just checking, are you using the official Kill Team supplement? If so, are only missions being used? It may be worth to get a copy somehow, just to flip through it. Look through the missions especially.

For now, let's comment on what you got. Of those you mentioned, this is the list IMHO should probably be the most successful:

mixer86 wrote:
List 2
10 Vets- Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Flamer
Armoured Sentinal
Armoured Sentinal
Armoured Sentinal
=200

The Armoured Sentinel saturation I find interesting. We usually make a unit a Stealth Specialist: Infiltrate with a Meltagun to take care of a vehicle...but not 3. In fact, it's typically difficult to fit more than 1 vehicle in a KT. Obviously, watch out for things like 18 Scouts who all have Krak Grenades; I worry about this a lot more than some guy with a Missile Launcher. Multilasers should be sufficient in KT, but we haven't field-tested those enough. The downside is that they are quite expensive, and failing to utilise even 1 of them at its full potential is like costing you 1/5 of your force. I think this is very cool, and worth trying, but just be aware this is a gamble.

If there's something to tweak, it's giving all the Veterans Krak Grenades, and even then I'm not totally sure. I just find Krak Grenades really useful. I've also found that in KT, giving everyone some wargear rather than just giving 1 guy, say, a Missile Launcher, tends to be much more successful. But I also realise you gave Special Weapons to 3 guys so you can have 3 Specialists...really tough trade-off here, I myself am 50/50 on this issue.

(I know you don't want to paint a platoon, but that was some top notch advice there about having as many regular Guardsman as possible. It's a great idea.)


Let's take a look at your opponents:


Marines- sternguard spam

Yeah, this will be very tough. Of all the things I fielded my own Sternguard against, I found they pay off the most against 4+ and 5+ armour saves. They will use their Kraken Bolt, 30" (rapid fire at 15"), AP4. I find their Special Ammo wasted on other targets. Of the Chapter Tactics, just watch out if your opponent says he'll use the Imperial Fists Bolter Drill; that does NOT apply to Special Ammo, but I've seen people who either don't know or are trying to trick you. White Scars actually have the most useful one because it allows them to Hit & Run out of melee. If your opponent is smart and up to date, he may use the Blood Angels Sternguard to run 9 guys instead of 8 (due to BA Sternguard starting a little cheaper).


2 Wolves- 1 is likely to run thunderwolfs

This is possibly even tougher. Aside from Thunderwolf Cavalry being a top unit, they also got even more cost-efficient recently, and they have a great quality with KT: speed.


the other is running a lone wolf and 15 or so fenrisian wolfs (V.cool idea)

Very fluffy, very cool, but with a flaw. KT has a thing called the Break Test; when your force is reduced to half its starting number, every unit has to make a Ld to stay in the game. Wolves have a particularly low Ld, and aren't that survivable, so try to force that Test on them ASAP. Incidentally, vehicles, like your Armoured Sentinels, automatically pass Break Tests, which was partly a reason I was so interested in them. So just thin the herd then the rest will flee.


2 DE- looking at grotesques or scourges here

Strangely absent in our local meta, so I can't comment.


Nids- likely genestealers

Good call, way to know your enemy. Tyranids have to pay a synapse tax, so unless your meta waives those rules, in 200 pts Genestealers is the most likely. In paper they're awesome, in practice I've never lost to them. They're easily kited, they're great at taking objectives but don't hold them very well. HOWEVER, watch out as they're a full Infiltrate force. Not many people have played against that in the last few editions. Just deploy with that in mind, watch your corners, deny them from Infiltrating too close, and you'll be fine. Also, there's 1 mission called Alone in the Dark that so favours Infiltrators, where your army appears on the table randomly unless they have Outflank, that Genstealers should have a definite win.


Orks- all the grots in the world

Believe it or not, this is the one I worry about the most nowadays. There's just too many bodies on the table to take down. Even though they're so weak, there's not enough shots to take them down to a Break Test probably.


2 guards- 1 is me, the other i don't really know much about, i expct 1 sentinel from him though.

This will be a great test of exactly how good Armoured Sentinels, and your usage of them, will be.


1 Eldar- likely to be jetbike spam

Eldar are really good at KT. Actually, they got a great codex in general, plus they just have great mobility across the board, great for KT. You got some great dakka against their low Toughness, though. There's a mission called Infiltrate the Camp where the attacker just needs to drive off the defender's table edge. If you get that mission and he's the attacker, it's a near instant victory for him. You need to kill 3 for every 1 he gets off the table. But aside from that, I'm interested if your firepower will flatten them.


Just giving you a heads up, maybe it'll help you play a battle through your head before face them, since you so kindly did some recon.

As I rememeber, models with armor value don't allowed in kill team. So, Sentinels will be illegal.

Thanks for the constructive comments Kommissar Waaaghrick.

Hi there, thanks for asking our opinions. Just checking, are you using the official Kill Team supplement? If so, are only missions being used? It may be worth to get a copy somehow, just to flip through it. Look through the missions especially.

It will be the KT rules as they currently stand. apparently they have been updated for 7th ed.

The Armoured Sentinel saturation I find interesting. We usually make a unit a Stealth Specialist: Infiltrate with a Meltagun to take care of a vehicle...but not 3. In fact, it's typically difficult to fit more than 1 vehicle in a KT. Obviously, watch out for things like 18 Scouts who all have Krak Grenades; I worry about this a lot more than some guy with a Missile Launcher. Multilasers should be sufficient in KT, but we haven't field-tested those enough. The downside is that they are quite expensive, and failing to utilise even 1 of them at its full potential is like costing you 1/5 of your force. I think this is very cool, and worth trying, but just be aware this is a gamble.

If there's something to tweak, it's giving all the Veterans Krak Grenades, and even then I'm not totally sure. I just find Krak Grenades really useful. I've also found that in KT, giving everyone some wargear rather than just giving 1 guy, say, a Missile Launcher, tends to be much more successful. But I also realise you gave Special Weapons to 3 guys so you can have 3 Specialists...really tough trade-off here, I myself am 50/50 on this issue.

i agree with what you are saying, i recognise its an interesting decision to run 3 sentinels. As you say though many will struggle to deal with 3 AV12 walkers, especialy at range. I also agree that multi krak grenades up my exhaust is a problem. but i am hoping that i can deal with the enemy whilst at a safe distance.

i am in two minds regarding which, if any, heavy weapon should be taken on the Vets squad. i like the grande launcher for is blast and the flamer for the same reason. these blasts help to off set the idea of running multilasers to keep the sentinel cheap and on task as i see it. i originally was thinking autocannon to take full advantage of BS4, but i could see a missile launcher being useful also, would be another blast as well. what do you think?

As I rememeber, models with armor value don't allowed in kill team. So, Sentinels will be illegal.

Vehicles are allowed as long as their total AV (front+side+rear) is equal to or less than 33. Armoured Sentinels are AV 12-10-10. so are legal.

not sure but are you possibly thinking of combat patrol? not sure about the rules for that though.

Ok so, thinking i might try this:

10 Vets- Flamer, Grenade Launcher- 70
Taurox- 50
Armoured Sentinel- 40
Armoured Sentinel- 40

=200

anyone think this is any good?