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 DarkLink wrote:

changemod wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:


Don't try and fight Paladins in close combat. You will lose that battle. And, no, the Culexus won't help you much other than to stop invisibility (which admittedly is a big deal). Grey Knights really only use psychic powers for assault buffs, and Paladins will beat you in assault handily anyways. I guess I should say, yes, Culexus is good at stopping Invisibility, but no, it's not anything like a hard counter to Grey Knights just because they're psychic. Plus... get close enough to block Invisibility and they will kill the Culexus.

Yes, the Pariah is dead when he's in invisibility range.

That's why you use him as a guided missile to kill some of them with his higher initiative and instant death before they charge him and he does even less.

By which point between his psychic phase shooting, the rest of the army's shooting and his combat damage, your guided missile will ideally have crippled the unit.


Another idea is the various test characteristic or be removed from play abilities Necrons have. Little hard to apply many of those here though.

Paladins are still extremely durable even under normal conditions, and he'll shoot the assassin to death before it ever gets to charge. The best you should be hoping for is blocking invisibility for one single turn and killing one of his other units so you won't give up first blood. Plus, Draigo can challenge the assassin and prevent you from killing any Paladins even if you do manage to charge.

Waste of perfectly good massed AP2 you could be tossing at them if you ask me.

Only reason to not charge is because you've trimmed the unit down small enough in your round of visible shooting that they can't output enough shots to kill the Culexus... Even then, Draigo will certainly want to charge it to keep it from touching the rest of his army.


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 DarkLink wrote:
Oh, the TCtan will table him in like two turns, because it's bs broken and GKs don't have any superheavies.

If you're winning in objective games but losing in purge, that's about the best you can expect. Play different missions or something. If you're not having fun, then keep in mind bringing the TCtan won't let your opponent have any fun either.

Best strategy with the Tran C'tan would actually be to transliminal stride through the Deathstar, slaughter things that aren't invisible and try to tempt him into charging it.

Invisible Draigo with backup and hammerhand on everyone actually stands way more chance of beating it down than basically anything else non-superheavy.

Necrons are probably the best placed army to deal with invisibility because:

Tesla
Death Rays
And SWEEP attacks from CCBs

Seriously. You should deal with that shiny chump. Especially with multiple doom scythes and the surely standard CCBs.

Sweep for 3/4 str 7 ap2 hits, then flat out a teasing amount away. He is not killing those barges.

3 doom scythes is the hard counter to any Deathstar without a meaty cover save.

Kholzerino wrote:
Sweep for 3/4 str 7 ap2 hits, then flat out a teasing amount away. He is not killing those barges.

Which does what, kill one paladin every two turns since you've now turbo-boosted out of sweeping range and can't afford to not turbo boost since he'll charge you? For nearly three hundred points?

It never ceases to amaze me how much people overvalue those things just because they happen to be durable hunters of some of the nastier things to crop up at tournaments.

If it is invisible and you don't have a crulexus, then just ignore it. Your firepower and time ill be better spent elsewhere.

If not playing purge the alien then try to delay or distract them with throw away units, and just play the objectives.

For 1k points the unit puts out a pathetic amount of firepower. And unless the librarian gets the right psychic power they are one of the lowest 'star' units in the game.

changemod wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Sweep for 3/4 str 7 ap2 hits, then flat out a teasing amount away. He is not killing those barges.

Which does what, kill one paladin every two turns since you've now turbo-boosted out of sweeping range and can't afford to not turbo boost since he'll charge you? For nearly three hundred points?

It never ceases to amaze me how much people overvalue those things just because they happen to be durable hunters of some of the nastier things to crop up at tournaments.

So your two sweeping barge lords kill 6 of the blob. The rest of your army should be able to deal with the rest. And the point of Bargelords is:

Durability, Mobility and the ability to kill wave serpents with ease. They can move across the board and score the hell out of stuff. Clearing objectives v efficiently. They really help to win games because they are there turn 5/6/7 and can move and score with ease.

Kholzerino wrote:

changemod wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Sweep for 3/4 str 7 ap2 hits, then flat out a teasing amount away. He is not killing those barges.

Which does what, kill one paladin every two turns since you've now turbo-boosted out of sweeping range and can't afford to not turbo boost since he'll charge you? For nearly three hundred points?

It never ceases to amaze me how much people overvalue those things just because they happen to be durable hunters of some of the nastier things to crop up at tournaments.

So your two sweeping barge lords kill 6 of the blob. The rest of your army should be able to deal with the rest. And the point of Bargelords is:

Durability, Mobility and the ability to kill wave serpents with ease. They can move across the board and score the hell out of stuff. Clearing objectives v efficiently. They really help to win games because they are there turn 5/6/7 and can move and score with ease.

I think you are missing the post important point of the OP's problem: Invisibility.

2 Barge lords sweeping will usually get 6 attacks, of these 1 of them will hit, have a high chance to wound, then the paladin gets an invulnerable save, and then FNP. Even if the dice gods were generous to you, 2 bargelords, (460-540 points) with shooting as well, might manage to kill 1 paladin per turn.

I don't see how this is viable.

Also keep in mind yhat Paladins get enough psycannons to drop a necron vehicle a turn with decent reliability.

How many times have you played this person and they have reliably rolled invisibility? Even if he is running a ML3 libby he is only gonna get invisibility half the time. An option would be tesla spam. Since you can only hit on 6's against invisibility, you could drown them in Str 7 hits. which wound on 2's.

 GKTiberius wrote:
How many times have you played this person and they have reliably rolled invisibility? Even if he is running a ML3 libby he is only gonna get invisibility half the time. An option would be tesla spam. Since you can only hit on 6's against invisibility, you could drown them in Str 7 hits. which wound on 2's.

Played that game myself, and it doesn't work.

Hit on a six, wound on a 2 (or 3 if using Immortals, but immortals have more massed shots so it works out similarly) and then no AP so you go through two rounds of 1/6 elimination... On two wound models.

Takes way too long to cut down on their firepower.

That's the problem here, really. Grey Knights are superficially "Overpowered" because they're balanced around a crippling alpha strike followed by each loss of one Knight being a large erosion of their overall firepower.

By adding invisibility too, they survive too long and get too much use out of points that are meant to be dying off.

 GKTiberius wrote:
How many times have you played this person and they have reliably rolled invisibility? Even if he is running a ML3 libby he is only gonna get invisibility half the time. An option would be tesla spam. Since you can only hit on 6's against invisibility, you could drown them in Str 7 hits. which wound on 2's.

He gets it most of the time, but really those 6's do not matter..I actually managed to put a lot of wounds on him, doesn't matter cause 2+ armor, then 5+ FnP. I would get lucky to do a wound a turn despite stacking so much tesla, such as 3 barges, 3 Scythes.


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 KingCorpus wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
How many times have you played this person and they have reliably rolled invisibility? Even if he is running a ML3 libby he is only gonna get invisibility half the time. An option would be tesla spam. Since you can only hit on 6's against invisibility, you could drown them in Str 7 hits. which wound on 2's.

He gets it most of the time, but really those 6's do not matter..I actually managed to put a lot of wounds on him, doesn't matter cause 2+ armor, then 5+ FnP. I would get lucky to do a wound a turn despite stacking so much tesla, such as 3 barges, 3 Scythes.

Honestly, invis is just a broken power. They should change it from "snap fire" to BS 1. I want my templates dang it.

I woudl then resport to str8 ap2 or better and in the crosn codex that includes
Doomsday cannon (Stationary)
Death ray
tachyon arrow
heat ray (focused)
Heavy Gauss Cannon

and there are 3 Ctan abilities on a shard that can help
one is Transdimentional thunderbolt
and the other two are CC abilities is not worth looking at.

Ultimately for 1000 points you may just want to field a transcendent ctan. there isn't much in the GK arsenal besides a Vortex of Doom that can kill the TCtan effectively.

 GKTiberius wrote:
How many times have you played this person and they have reliably rolled invisibility? Even if he is running a ML3 libby he is only gonna get invisibility half the time. An option would be tesla spam. Since you can only hit on 6's against invisibility, you could drown them in Str 7 hits. which wound on 2's.

Against which he gets 2+ armor and fnp, and even with tesla you aren't getting that many total hits in.

I'd like to remind everyone that Invisability is not inherent to the GK codex, and there are far better units in the game to use Invisability on than over-priced, under-performing Paladns. If your opponent is casting Invis on such a poor "Deathstar", you should laugh and kill the rest of their army, because they just handed you a win.

SJ

What's poor about Paladins? Oh wait, they're not Dreadknights are they?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'd like to remind everyone that Invisability is not inherent to the GK codex, and there are far better units in the game to use Invisability on than over-priced, under-performing Paladns. If your opponent is casting Invis on such a poor "Deathstar", you should laugh and kill the rest of their army, because they just handed you a win.

SJ

Well, recently I played against a guy with two of these invisible paladin blobs, and the rest of his army consisted of:

Dreadknight,
Stormraven,
Five power armoured guys of some sort,
Allied inquisitor armed only with a bolt pistol lurking out of line of sight in the back corner.

I did kill the rest, and it made no difference.

It must be an odd meta you play in where two different units in the same army have guaranteed Invisability every game. Guess you are screwed.

What makes Paladins a poor choice is their cost versus vulnerability to being one-shotted by S8+ AP2/1 weapons that are way too common in this game. For roughly the same points, you get twice as many GKT for 2-4 times the survivability at the same firepower, same CC, and being a Troop choice. Yes, Paladins can have a Banner and FnP, but it's at the cost of more models in a low model count army. Paladins have the exact same issues as all TDA, at half again the cost. GKT do what the Pallies do at a lower cost and are Troops.

A Paladin base Deathstar is a huge waste of points. If you cannot deal with wants left after your opponent makes such a bad mistake of wasting points on Paladins, you need to reevaluate your list building phylosophy.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It must be an odd meta you play in where two different units in the same army have guaranteed Invisability every game. Guess you are screwed.

I've played against that guy bringing what he refers to as his "Tournament list" once. Generally he just does a few terminator squads, a Dreadknight, a Stormraven and a few other random things. Seems really big on the Servo Skulls from that otherwise worthless and cowardly inquisitor for some reason.

The problem with the list honestly isn't that it's inherently broken, it's that it randomly breaks and decides the game before play starts. With my army not specifically filled with invisibility counter spam, I may as well have shrugged and said "Okay, you win I guess" right there.

i run backup telepathy on my GK's and i have rolled invisibiltiy once in the last 4 games. but is supposed if i threw 2 libbys worth of ML at telepathy i might be more successful. Paladins are rough, but the guy who said they are a point sink is right. paladins seem more survivable with the apothecary but for the 5 man squad with banner and apothecary an 2 special weapons (360 points) i can take a 10 man terminator squad with 2 daemon hammers and an incinerator. This generates double the warp charges, can be broken into two squad that are both troops, and despite only haveing 1 wound, are almost as durable as a paladin squad.

But also has significantly less ranged firepower.

it has double the storm bolter shots at the expense of the psycannons. but you could have the same build in a 10 more if you gave up the hammers for the ranged power

The thing is I never have trouble against termies, my wraiths eat them with no issues most of the time.

 GKTiberius wrote:
it has double the storm bolter shots at the expense of the psycannons. but you could have the same build in a 10 more if you gave up the hammers for the ranged power

And Storm Bolters don't matter, psycannons do. Trust me, I've been bringing Paladins to tournaments a long time, they're as good as anything else in the GK codex.