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 Polonius wrote:
So, they really, really don't want to provide any real discounts on this.

Ding ding ding.....

Honestly everything they have done is to try to cut the savings margin as much as possible and fog the issue of the actual savings.

 Polonius wrote:
So, they really, really don't want to provide any real discounts on this.

You do know what freebies are right?


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Look at the graphic again.. you get a total of 3 freebies PLUS $35 bonus dollars worth of stuff PLUS free shipping PLUS 6 objective markers..

Edited by RiTides - see mod note posted on the last page

Yeah, I guess I haven't crunched the numbers too much here, but I was just going off of the point levels on the bottom left of the bundle deals, so that much is correct.

But it does seem to me they aren't doing quite enough to tempt people in here - I'm not finding an accessible pledge level for me to dip a toe in (the basic pledge is $32, so if I want the tank I'd have to make that $35 plus $15 shipping). A tank and 5 marines (free) for $50 shipped is not bad, but I wish there had been an easier way to dip a toe in (and on the flip side, an easier way to go for a whole army). The bundles definitely are the sweet spot so for folks wanting to pledge around there things should work fine, though.

Have you put together what models you're trying to get and worked out how many points it would be?

I think it's going to depend on what people's ideal whole army is too.. most of the games I play are more skirmish rule sets.. I don't really do the whole 40k thing so 100+ models isn't really a thing I see very much anymore.


A lot of people asked them to change from points to dollars and it screwed a lot of things up for them to transition after the KS had already launched. They have said though, that if you would have the points for it but the $$ value doesn't add up then you can just round it off and they would cover the difference. That could work out to people squeaking stuff in as well for a little bit more of a saving.

 MLaw wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
So, they really, really don't want to provide any real discounts on this.

You do know what freebies are right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at the graphic again.. you get a total of 3 freebies PLUS $35 bonus dollars worth of stuff PLUS free shipping PLUS 6 objective markers..

Edited by RiTides - see mod note posted on the last page

But let's look at the math:

Lvl 4: $535 + $20 (Free Shipping) + $51 (3 Freebies) is a $606 value for $500
3 Bundles (Using 1 of each Daemon as an example): $552 - $20 (Shipping) + $17 (Freebie) is a $549 value for $480.

So there is a light discount going in that large. Right at $500 is a 30% value over the individual bundles if you don't early bird. If you do early bird it's a $7 difference.

The differences between the bundles covered at the $500 level comes out to about 18% off before the "freebies" which add approximately 11% more for a total of 29%. That said, it's based on their possible MSRP which will be inflated vs. the euro and which doesn't take into account that they regularly bundle units as well. And shipping is a wash because I put in a similar sized order on their website to test it and at that size there is no shipping cost. It's free.

So in reality, at their best level, you're probably looking at between 15-20% of a discount. Maybe less and maybe more depending on the performance of the euro vs. the dollar.

**Edit**

I was wrong about the saving difference between 3 bundles seperate and 3 bundles in the $500 pledge because I forgot you pay an extra $17 for the dollar difference for the 3 bundles. So it's about a half and cheaper if you can mass order the early bird of bundles which they said you could do via messenger to me.

Edited by RiTides - Edited comment responding to a line which had already been edited previously

Hulksmash you're forgetting the additional $35.. that is on top of the freebies.


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You're also not associating any value to the objectives. Granted, I don't need them and maybe most people won't either but they are there and at the very least offer re-sale value if people don't want them.

My starting value includes the $35. Re-read. I actually made a small error. And I didn't include the objectives because they are a wash in the comparison between the two ways of doing things that RiTides was discussing.

 Hulksmash wrote:

But let's look at the math:

So there is a light discount going in that large. Right at $500 is a 30% value over the individual bundles if you don't early bird. If you do early bird it's a $7 difference.

Wait, I'm not sure I follow your math.. or at least the way you're presenting it. Is the 30% value the amount saved if you go with the $500 pledge level? 30% isn't minor (some people even said that they need a 25% savings before jumping in) and if the $500 is in fact offering a 30% savings, it's worth noting and perhaps should not be downplayed.

 MLaw wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

But let's look at the math:

So there is a light discount going in that large. Right at $500 is a 30% value over the individual bundles if you don't early bird. If you do early bird it's a $7 difference.

Wait, I'm not sure I follow your math.. or at least the way you're presenting it. Is the 30% value the amount saved if you go with the $500 pledge level? 30% isn't minor (some people even said that they need a 25% savings before jumping in) and if the $500 is in fact offering a 30% savings, it's worth noting and perhaps should not be downplayed.

I think, if anything, a 30% discount at the $500 pledge level should be downplayed out of courtesy to the Kickstarter!

That's a horrendously small discount for such a large pledge amount with a six month (in theory) delay..

Look, if people don't like the price, that's fine, but Titan Forge seems to be doing all they can to distract people from how little savings are involved.

@Polonius

the 30% is the difference between the bundles which I was actually wrong about. It's less. The discount on the product at their MSRP using my above example of the 3 bundles of daemons w/3 freebies and not including the objectives is:

Total Cost (1 of each bundle + 3 free infantry units): 672.7
Total Paid: $517
Discount: 23.2%

This is based on the MSRP they present, free shipping (as their website currently offers on orders this high), and not including the objectives.

It also doesn't take into account that most of the units are currently on the website are between 5-15% cheaper ordering using the euro.

Two Examples being

The Descendents of Decay which are noted at $42.20 but cost 35 euro. Which is $39.92. A 5% difference.

The Skybeasts which are noted as 26.6 but are 20 euro which is $22.80. A 14% difference.

@The thread in general

This just additional information. Do with it what you will. But the actual discount on product at the best "value" pledge is demonstratably under 20% unless the euro makes a massive gains on the dollar.

EDIT: I just saw that I mis-read what you said about the difference in the two.. and yeah.. I see where you're at now on the math. My math below on just bulk ordering Marines could raise a different topic. I dunno.. I don't think any math in the world will sway some opinions and that's fine..


Going off of the point system (they do allow you to use points and that does convert to more savings over flat $ amounts) you can get 29 squads of 5 marines plus 3 more for the freebies. Plus 2 more for the $35 (I would have to double check that they will cover the $1 difference). That works out to $2.94 per model for multi-part resin marines with free shipping and objective tokens.

I might be mistaken but I don't know anywhere else to get resin figures for under $3. If someone does.. let me know.

I haven't done the math using the Guardians.. they drop even lower because the base unit is $1 cheaper. I also did not check the bikes. They are $30 for 3 bikes.


EDIT: Hulksmash, are you factoring in that you take the cheaper of the two between points and dollar values? Also, on the stuff in the store.. the things I'm interested in aren't in the store at all or I would just order them and leave the whole thing alone. If I were in the shoes of someone wanting things from the store and things on offer for the KS.. I would order the things from the store separately to minimize headaches and stay closer to the bundle sweetspot.

EDIT2: People are implying you can purchase the TF miniatures for cheaper on other sites.. but then go back to make comments on currency conversion and shipping options through the TF website. Which is it? I am not saying there aren't places selling TF but I really don't know who they are. I do know that drawing a comparison between one or the other is fair but taking the worst aspects of each is cherry picking for a negative comparison.

 MLaw wrote:
Go try to buy a TV or a video game system for 30% off.

Pretty sure when I buy one of those I either walk out with it or it is shipped to me immediately. Having to wait a indeterminate amount of time for something from someone with a less than stellar history changes my expectations.

 Eldarain wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Go try to buy a TV or a video game system for 30% off.

Pretty sure when I buy one of those I either walk out with it or it is shipped to me immediately. Having to wait a indeterminate amount of time for something from someone with a less than stellar history changes my expectations.

Yeah, that's fair. As someone who has pre-ordered video games that got delayed though I can't say there aren't legitimate commercial/retail parallels though.

EDIT: Also.. I don't know about most people but when I pre-order video games or consoles, I don't really get that much of a discount.. typically it's maaaaaybe 10% because of Amazon which sometimes cover shipping (not nearly as much as it used to :/ ). I think there are some exceptions.. like maybe EB's paid gaming membership but I wouldn't bet on that.

 MLaw wrote:

EDIT: Hulksmash, are you factoring in that you take the cheaper of the two between points and dollar values? Also, on the stuff in the store.. the things I'm interested in aren't in the store at all or I would just order them and leave the whole thing alone. If I were in the shoes of someone wanting things from the store and things on offer for the KS.. I would order the things from the store separately to minimize headaches and stay closer to the bundle sweetspot.

The daemon bundles points and cash costs are the same. When they shifted to dollars they just made the cost the points divided by 20. Maybe I'm blind but I'm not seeing where you get a better value on points vs. cash. Especially since they won't let you "buy" bundles out of the $500 pledge but you have to build in place using the cash or point values (which are the same and come out higher than the bundles that way). That means you can't take advantage of the pre-set forces higher discount.

Regarding the stuff in the store it was to show that the pricing is likely to be just as far off. so you are likely looking at a less than 20% discount unless the euro makes massive gains. It had nothing to do with wanting to purchase existing items at a discount.

And while I agree that if I wanted something from the store I would purchase now. The bundles (my focus) that are the largest savings until the $500 pledge however have items that exist on the store at this time. And they are are selling at higher than current cost on the website. So they become relevant that way as well.

Also this isn't pre-order. These items, outside of existing models, aren't ready for production. This money is going into to getting these models into production. That's a horse of a different color from video games or regular pre-orders.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

EDIT: Hulksmash, are you factoring in that you take the cheaper of the two between points and dollar values? Also, on the stuff in the store.. the things I'm interested in aren't in the store at all or I would just order them and leave the whole thing alone. If I were in the shoes of someone wanting things from the store and things on offer for the KS.. I would order the things from the store separately to minimize headaches and stay closer to the bundle sweetspot.

The daemon bundles points and cash costs are the same. When they shifted to dollars they just made the cost the points divided by 20. Maybe I'm blind but I'm not seeing where you get a better value on points vs. cash. Especially since they won't let you "buy" bundles out of the $500 pledge but you have to build in place using the cash or point values (which are the same and come out higher than the bundles that way). That means you can't take advantage of the pre-set forces higher discount.

Regarding the stuff in the store it was to show that the pricing is likely to be just as far off. so you are likely looking at a less than 20% discount unless the euro makes massive gains. It had nothing to do with wanting to purchase existing items at a discount.

And while I agree that if I wanted something from the store I would purchase now. The bundles (my focus) that are the largest savings until the $500 pledge however have items that exist on the store at this time. And they are are selling at higher than current cost on the website. So they become relevant that way as well.

Also this isn't pre-order. These items, outside of existing models, aren't ready for production. This money is going into to getting these models into production. That's a horse of a different color from video games or regular pre-orders.

I think perhaps this form of reasoning is backwards. It's looking at percentages of the total and it's not shopping the way I think people normally would.
For instance.. Figure out what you want (if it's actually anything). Add it up and look at how much it would cost you to get there. Then determine if that's a fair market value. All of this other stuff is just meta-shopping nonsense.

I'll dig out where they said that about the points. If it was in the chat it'll take me a while (I have stuff to do so I might not get to it if I don't find it on the updates or main page). TF has communicated with us a lot in the comments and then forgotten to include it in the update. I think whoever they hired for the social liaison stuff might not realize that unless it's put in the updates people struggle to find it (even then too most times). There've been a few times he said some things in comments and 2 days later we have to nudge him to get it in an update. When I find the original bit about the points I'll drop in a new reply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:


Also this isn't pre-order. These items, outside of existing models, aren't ready for production. This money is going into to getting these models into production. That's a horse of a different color from video games or regular pre-orders.

Some video games are on pre-order while they're still in production. In fact, more and more they're doing paid betas. Considering TF has already started casting some units.. I'd say it's pretty fair to say they are transitioning into production. The airship and APCs are probably the parts I'd be most concerned about because of their size.

I used pre-order as an example because it's the closest thing to Kickstarter in the retail scene. I've said exactly what you've said here, and I do agree with it. The exception is, as I stated, games and game consoles who both go into pre-sale prior to finishing completion in many cases and are also in a pretty similar "luxury" pricing type of niche.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is right on the front page under pledges.

Point Rewards work just as they did in our previous campaigns - every one of them contains a number of points that you can spend in the pledge manager for products that we unlock during the campaign. We have added $ costs for each model so it will be easier to check it's actual cost. In right top corner in pledges description and in models pictures there is still a point cost with *. If you prefer to use points to calculate your pledge you can still do it.

People are criticizing this kickstarter and haven't even bothered to read the main page. I'm done replying to people who have not even bothered to look at the main page.

Ha, yeah right

MLaw, the point was that the dollar value and point value on the daemon bundles were the same - not that they didn't offer to round where necessary.

Kickstarters aren't pre-orders. They're loans.

Backers essentially loan money to companies to use as capital to create products. In return, they get product, usually at a significant discount to allow for the Time-use of money.

Some kickstarters are "pure," in that they represent products that simply would not exist without crowdfunding, and thus the creation of something neat is basically the only reward.

Other kickstarters are basically liquidity machines for ongoing businesses, in which they do almost no product development outside of the the kickstarters, and thus rely only on kickstarters to "fund" the products that they are working on. This is the mantic model, in which a company keeps a steady cashflow going while building a product line and avoiding debt. This is a lot more brazen, and requires a lot more sweetening of the pot for backers to really accept them.

Others are kind of in the middle, and that's what this sounds like. I don't doubt that Titan Forge was going to release some or all of these models, but they probably do need the money to turn the renders into models and fund production. That said, it sounds like they need cash for many, many purposes.

This is where the relatively skimpy discount comes in. What's my incentive to pledge? Why don't I just wait and buy these at retail for only pennies more, while avoiding the possibliity of getting nothing?

RiTides - Using the points system you get 31 units Berserkers of Fury. Using $$ you get 29. (neither including the freebies)
10700 pts / 340
$500 / $17

If you use your freebies and the $35 on Berserkers of Fury they work out to ~$2.78 per model.
Not only is that a pretty fair price point.. it's also shipped and with the objective markers. Granted, I don't expect anyone to buy 180 Berserkers of Fury.. but if we're just throwing out hypothetical numbers, that's what I'm going with.

RiTides before the huge edit, I asked if you had pointed up anything yet. Why not make a list of what you would want and calculate it in points and $$. See how it shakes out since for the most part I think the debate has just used single units.


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Polonius.. I understand and even said as much. I was drawing a pre-order parallel because it's closest. And.. fun fact.. financial institutions do not share your opinion and allow chargebacks if project creators don't deliver. You have to make a good faith effort to collect your pledge and they have to demonstrate a lack of communication and/or lack of ability to deliver promised goods.
EDIT: Also.. if they produce the models they've indicated and deliver them, then I could give a rat's arse what they do with the funds. I would hope that anything past paying employees and materials for production would go into growing the business. That's none of my business if they fulfill their end of the agreement.

 MLaw wrote:
RiTides - Using the points system you get 31 units Berserkers of Fury. Using $$ you get 29. (neither including the freebies)
10700 pts / 340
$500 / $17

This is wrong. You get 31 units with a dollar left over at at the $500 pledge ($35 bonus dollars, not freebies) and 31 Berserkers of Fury for 10700 (which is the original 10k + 700 which is the equivelent of 1 dollar per 20pts). So no savings on the points vs. dollars there.

And your math per model is off. 31 units is 155 models. Plus 3 Freebies (15) is 170 models.

$500/170 is $2.94 per model.

Just so that the math is actually clear for those seeing this.

The fact that even a person super supporting them can't properly follow their system kinda speaks for itself. It's complicated and designed to confuse people to seeing a larger discount than exists. As above.

500/17 = 29
10700/340 = 31
Neither of those factors in $35 or freebies.
I said as much.
When you do factor in the freebies and bonus money to the better value of the two the value jumps to the $2.78 that I quoted. Why you would factor it on the higher makes no sense.

My math is not off. 31base+3freebies+2bonus money =36 Units * 5 per unit= 180 models.

EDIT:
It's not complicated to confuse people. At first it was just points. They changed that because people complained about the points.

The $500 pledge is either:

10700pts
or
$535

There are no bonus points. Unless you can find me a post that says differently all the math points to the above.

The bonus dollars are equivelant to the bonus points they had previously had in the same spot. That totalled the exact amount divided by 20 of the dollar value given as a bonus. They just added the additional 700pts to the 10k pledge when they put the values in the corner. Just like on the $250 pledge.

You math does work out on the numbers as you see them. But unless you get confirmation that they are adding basically another 700pts to the point allowance it's inaccurate in reality.

Dollars and points are used interchangeably. They addressed this in the comments. Why not visit the KS page and actually do some research since you're so concerned



Upper right corner 10700 pts or 500$ plus $35 in bonus to spend as per descriptive text.


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Here's the thing.. when I see something like this.. I do the sensible thing and ask the project creator. Even if I was only thinking of backing, I would shoot them a message.

In this particular instance I know this was discussed in the comments section. Perhaps I'll mention it as an update for the QA

I'd confirm that if I was you. I'm well aware of what that says. But 10700, when it was points, was 10000 and then the bonus text said 700 bonus points. Just like it now says 500 plus 35 bonus in cash. So I think you are misinterpreting it but I could be wrong. I'd suggest confirming.

I agree, I think it's just 10700 points including the bonus.

$500 + $35 bonus = $535
10,000 points + 700 bonus = 10,700

Since 20 points is $1 USD, 700 points is $35... the 700 is the bonus. So it's exactly the same value in dollars or points.

Barring that.. which I am waiting for an official response... we're still talking about resin demons for under $3 each. The quality has been described as matching those renders.. which I think most people would agree means awesome. Both RiTides and Hulksmash own TF products and we've seen photos of the castings and it all points to top notch models.
Just for comparison's sake.. GW retail (which admittedly nobody pays) marks their plastic Bloodletters at 29 bucks for a box of 10. Multipart plastic. I honestly don't know who else makes demons as an army. Reaper's Warlord has 9 demonic warriors in pewter for $40.. I dunno.
The point is.. whatever math adds up to, whether it's $2.80 per model or $2.90 per model, it's still really reasonable.

I definitely agree with that, my casts from Titan Forge are some of the best I've ever seen and I'm extremely pleased with the products I have from them. That's why I've been tracking this

I do find them a bit pricey and in the past have wished I've been in on their campaigns more since there is some discount. However, it was extremely convenient for me last month to be able to order their product in-stock from Element Games in the UK, and get it in less than 2 weeks! So far I haven't found a level to tempt me in here yet, but even if I don't pledge I will definitely be considering buying some of the marine items at retail, like that lovely tank.

So I just got some hobby money from a friend as a late Christmas gift. I now have no excuse, and I am locked in with a 37$ pledge. (Which I think Mlaw/TFG on the KS comments explained is a Claymore and some Marines.)

I guess it is just a waiting game now to see if the Dropship is unlocked. I also feel awful for the snarkiness last night, just adopted a twenty four pound ball of fur in the form a cat who kept me up till 5:59 this morning. It's not a good excuse for being salty on Dakka though, so I apologize to you all as I was in the wrong.

Stormwall - Make sure you hit up the Facebook contest. Your pledge is high enough to get a chance at $160 additional loot!

RiTides -
I like the tanks, though I'm not really keen on the side-by side treads.. IRL that'd be a pain to work on, especially if the inner tread needed fixed. I like it a lot better than WW2 or M113 in space though.
The things I want are not at retail though, so I have to hope it works out.. including that airship. I like settings like Shadowrun or Ghost in the Shell and having something like that for an E-Swat type of force.. mmm.. delicious.

The Terra Guardian types are expensive when you compare them to multipart Cadians and similar.. but I've been building a lot of multipart resins from Puppetswar, Mad Robot, etc.. and this works out cheaper. The armoured guys with that Edge of Tomorrow/Elysium e-frame are not something anyone else has.. and I wants it.. precious..




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh.. Stormwall - I hope I didn't give the impression I'm with TFG.. I've loosely helped them concept the airship and I've been waving their banner like a madman but I am just a backer like you.

Does it matter where I share it, IE: On timeline or on a friends wall?

Edit: You actually gave me that impression until you explained in the KS comments you're an avid fan, and I would be going crazy over that ship too if it had the original rotors or a detachable troop box like in Starship troopers or Mechwarrior.

I have no use for it unless of course it goes in the display case, as I am already (failing,) building a Stormraven and Stormfang kitbash/ truescale dropship scratchbuild, along with a Fallen Destiny Dropship at the end of this year.

And yet again, I'm sorry about my actions from yesterday.