Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so lets say my chaos lord is in a challenge with an enemy character. They strike at the sametime and both kill each other....Do i still roll on the table? and if I do roll on the table and get the Daemon prince/spawn transformation, would he turn into a DP or spawn ?

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok, so lets say my chaos lord is in a challenge with an enemy character. They strike at the sametime and both kill each other....Do i still roll on the table? and if I do roll on the table and get the Daemon prince/spawn transformation, would he turn into a DP or spawn ?

Yes, you still roll.
There is no point though, as you must place the spawn or Daemon Prince within 3" of the champion.
If the model with the Champion of Chaos rule is dead, you cannot measure from 3" of him.

This actually happened the other day. Thing is, you are "immediately" supposed to roll on the table. If that happens at the same time as suffering your last wound, what happens first? Rolling on the table, or removing the model?

We decided they were pretty simo, and went with "player whose turn it is decides order of simultaneous events", so my dead lord became a chaos spawn.

 Spellbound wrote:
This actually happened the other day. Thing is, you are "immediately" supposed to roll on the table. If that happens at the same time as suffering your last wound, what happens first? Rolling on the table, or removing the model?

We decided they were pretty simo, and went with "player whose turn it is decides order of simultaneous events", so my dead lord became a chaos spawn.

Depends on when a models is considered "killed". Is it when it loses its last Wound, or is removed from the table?

If the first, then Boon happens first (immediately upon killing a character). If the second, then there is no Champ to roll on the boon table.

Could be a case where the 'Sequencing' rule comes into play.

It is all down to sequencing and depends on when the model is removed.

Thematically it would make sense to roll, simply for that last ditch chance for the champion to survive and ascend - the whole idea is pretty damn cinematic.

You have to kill a character before you can roll on the table. That's what triggers it.

So both characters being killed come before rolling on the table.

The rules for chaos boons states you must do it immediately if the champion kills a character.

if a model is reduced from 1 to 0 wounds it is removed as a casualty.

models removed as casualties are removed from the table and placed to one side.

the spawn/DP model has to be placed within 3" of the champion of chaos model, if its off the table you can't really do that.

so the question, as most of us already know, is which happens first.

as codex generally trumps rulebook, and the rulebook does not say immediately remove the model, but tells us we must immediately roll on the boon table. Because part of being reduced from x-0 wounds is being removed as a casualty which is going off the table and its not listed a separate step the question is now does "must immediately" interrupt the process. Technically both models are removed at the same time so when you kill the model with the champion it kills you at the same time. We cannot say this is an event that can be sequenced, or the order picked by who's turn it is, because we are told:

If both sides have models with the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously.

so unlike other times when we are not told how to resolve things that happen during the same part of a phase, we are spefically told attacks are made simultaneously here.

as such we cannot invoke a sequencing rule and say that we can pick the model to be removed before the champion is removed.

The result is the champion is removed at the same time it kills the other model s the champion is definitely removed from the table.

Despite it seeming illogical to roll a result on a table for a model that is dead there is nothing in the rules stopping it from rolling on the boon table, as there is no requirement in the rules for the champion to be alive, at full wounds, or on the table to roll.

As such you can still roll on the boon table, but a result of spawnhood or daemonhood does nothing as the champion is off the table and you cannot place the spawn daemon within 3" of the champion.

Under the spawn rule, which daemonhood says to follow as well, we are told that if the spawn/daemon model cannot be placed on the board it counts as killed.

The only issue with the above is if you roll "bloated' which gives you +1 wound if at full wounds, or is returned to full wounds. Technically the champion is alive again but is off the table as it was removed as a casualty.

I don't think I agree. The only part of that list that says it MUST be simultaneous is the models attacking, if they're at the same initiative step. After that, it seems we have what we often have - several things that happen at the same time and the player whose turn it is gets to decide the order.

HIWPI is that in a tournament, don't bother rolling and the champion is just dead. In a friendly game, just roll and see what happens because it IS very thematic to have him get transformed at his moment of triumph - or failure.

If you're concerned further, ask your opponent. "Ok, if we kill each other, do you mind if I roll on the table to see if I get daemon prince or spawn?"