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When I play in my local shop I notice when people cant get into base contact for an assault they just stop, yet I was playing with my friend today and found some weird wording in the rulebook any clarification would be nice.

The rulebook states: A Unit cannot declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, this being normal max charge range (12). So for an example: a unit rolls to charge, gets 8. Moves the initial charger so that it is now 6 inches away from the squad it was charging.

Now, a failed charge is "If the initial charger is found to be further than its charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved." Since its charge range was 8" and the unit is only 6" away, the assault is a success but the units are not locked in combat right? I'm a little confused on this one. Thanks for any help.

If you can't reach base contact, the charge fails.

If your movement doesn't get you into base contact, you don't have sufficient movement to get into base contact. So the target is outside your charge range.

 insaniak wrote:
If you can't reach base contact, the charge fails.

If your movement doesn't get you into base contact, you don't have sufficient movement to get into base contact. So the target is outside your charge range.

"If you can't reach base contact, the charge fails. " Where does it say this? It only says it cant "Declare a charge" You declare a charge before rolling for it right? The exact rule is this:

"A unit can never DECLARE a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

The order for assault phase is:

Charge Phase

1. declare charge
2.resolve overwatch
3. ROLL CHARGE RANGE
4. Charge move
5. Declare next charge


Why would the fail charge rule have the text "If the initial charger is found to be further than its charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved" If there is zero use for it?

What are you arguing for exactly? I'm sure what the question here is.

Huh? I think you are misunderstanding. You roll your charge range. If this is not enough to reach your declared target (eg the declared target is 10" away, and you roll 9" or less), the charge fails and you do not move any units. Simple as that.

Why would there be no use for it?

To declare a charge, you have to be able to reach it. This generally means that you are within 12 inches and are physically able to move your closest model into base to base contact, assuming you roll a 12".

If you are 8" away and you roll a 6, then your roll wasn't enough to get you into range and the charge fails with your unit never moving. You only move if the charge is successful. I feel like you think your unit moves regardless. Not the case.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Huh? I think you are misunderstanding. You roll your charge range. If this is not enough to reach your declared target (eg the declared target is 10" away, and you roll 9" or less), the charge fails and you do not move any units. Simple as that.

Ok The phase order is:


1. declare charge
2.resolve overwatch
3. ROLL CHARGE RANGE
4. Charge move
5. Declare next charge

For declare charge the rule text is:
"A unit can never DECLARE a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

This is done BEFORE ROLLING FOR RANGE from my understanding of the turn order. Because how do I skip ahead to roll for the charge range then go back to declare the charge? That makes no sense to me, you would use the flat 12" max range for the Declare charge not the Roll for charge range 2 steps ahead of it. If I'm totally mistaken here please explain it to me. Because Im just trying to understand how you are applying the roll in step 3 to the charge declared in step 1?

Since you can never roll higher than a 12, you normally can't declare a charge against targets 13" or more away.

 Kriswall wrote:
To declare a charge, you have to be able to reach it. This generally means that you are within 12 inches and are physically able to move your closest model into base to base contact, assuming you roll a 12".

If you are 8" away and you roll a 6, then your roll wasn't enough to get you into range and the charge fails with your unit never moving. You only move if the charge is successful. I feel like you think your unit moves regardless. Not the case.

Yes it says you cannot DECLARE a charge on a unit you cannot reach, so a unit 15 inches away from a squad could not reach it with the 12 inch max. This still has NOTHING to do with step 3 yet. Thats how I understand that rule. It says nothing under step 1: declare charge, about base contact.

 Kriswall wrote:
Since you can never roll higher than a 12, you normally can't declare a charge against targets 13" or more away.

Exactly, I totally agree, but where does it say about base contact?

1. Declare charge
2. Resolve overwatch
3. Roll charge range
4. If charge range rolled is enough to get your unit into base to base contact, move the unit. Charge succeeds. If the charge range rolled is NOT enough to get your unit into base to base contact, do NOT move the unit. Charge fails.
5. Declare the next charge.

You seem to be confusing a couple of different issues.

Step one stops you from delaying a charge against a unit you can't reach. That would cover both units outside the maximum possible charge distance and units that you can't reach for some other reason.

Then, once you have rolled your charge distance, your charge will fail if you can not move into contact with the declared target.

Zeeth wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
To declare a charge, you have to be able to reach it. This generally means that you are within 12 inches and are physically able to move your closest model into base to base contact, assuming you roll a 12".

If you are 8" away and you roll a 6, then your roll wasn't enough to get you into range and the charge fails with your unit never moving. You only move if the charge is successful. I feel like you think your unit moves regardless. Not the case.

Yes it says you cannot DECLARE a charge on a unit you cannot reach, so a unit 15 inches away from a squad could not reach it with the 12 inch max. This still has NOTHING to do with step 3 yet. Thats how I understand that rule, it says nothing under step 1: declare charge, about base contact.

 Kriswall wrote:
Since you can never roll higher than a 12, you normally can't declare a charge against targets 13" or more away.

Exactly, I totally agree, but where does it say about base contact?

It says you can't declare against a target you can't reach. How can you reach a target you can't get into base to base with?

A successful charge requires you to also be able to make base contact. Just because the unit may be closer then the distance you rolled does not mean you automatically make a successful charge.

If an enemy unit were completely surrounded by another unit, you can't reach that unit so you can't declare a charge to that unit, even if they were within 12"

Removed by insaniak - This sort of comment adds nothing constructive to the discussion.

What about a Dread Knight(or any other large model for that matter) declaring a charge against a unit on the second level of a ruin? It can make the charge because it rolled the correct distance plus going up a level, but there is no legal position to place the model on the ruin.

Wobbly model syndrome is for being able to let go of the model and have it stand in place, but moved to prevent it falling and being damaged. Not, the very tip of my base can squeeze in here so that is where it is at.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
What about a Dread Knight(or any other large model for that matter) declaring a charge against a unit on the second level of a ruin? It can make the charge because it rolled the correct distance plus going up a level, but there is no legal position to place the model on the ruin.

Wobbly model syndrome is for being able to let go of the model and have it stand in place, but moved to prevent it falling and being damaged. Not, the very tip of my base can squeeze in here so that is where it is at.

From a rules as written standpoint, completely filling up a level on a ruin effectively makes you immune to a charge. Silly, I know, but this is what the rules say. Shoot a couple of dudes first to make space.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
What about a Dread Knight(or any other large model for that matter) declaring a charge against a unit on the second level of a ruin? It can make the charge because it rolled the correct distance plus going up a level, but there is no legal position to place the model on the ruin.

Wobbly model syndrome is for being able to let go of the model and have it stand in place, but moved to prevent it falling and being damaged. Not, the very tip of my base can squeeze in here so that is where it is at.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to that situation, there is no legal way for the Dreadknight to reach the enemy unit, so you would have been unable to declare the charge in the first place.

I think OP is misunderstanding what "declare charge" means.

Declare charge is: "My assault marines are going to charge your Warriors" or something similar.

Then your opponent will be like "Yup I will overwatch now" and shoot your dudes.

Then you roll the dice to see how far you charge - if the number you roll is not enough to get at least 1 model in base contact they do not move at all and the assault for that particular unit ends....

EDIT: And for the sake of "cannot reach" that simply means greater than 12" away or cannot physically be placed in base contact (unit might already be surrounded or something similar).

Zeeth wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
To declare a charge, you have to be able to reach it. This generally means that you are within 12 inches and are physically able to move your closest model into base to base contact, assuming you roll a 12".

If you are 8" away and you roll a 6, then your roll wasn't enough to get you into range and the charge fails with your unit never moving. You only move if the charge is successful. I feel like you think your unit moves regardless. Not the case.

Yes it says you cannot DECLARE a charge on a unit you cannot reach, so a unit 15 inches away from a squad could not reach it with the 12 inch max. This still has NOTHING to do with step 3 yet. Thats how I understand that rule. It says nothing under step 1: declare charge, about base contact.

 Kriswall wrote:
Since you can never roll higher than a 12, you normally can't declare a charge against targets 13" or more away.

Exactly, I totally agree, but where does it say about base contact?

I says contact all through the Charge move section. Read the Failed Charge rule. The easiest examples of this are losing models to Overwatch and moving around a unit to charge.

As far as having enough distance but unable to reach base contact. Ive seen it most often played that if you would have made the charge, then you make the charge. either by moving the models next to an agreeable spot on the table. or sometimes moving them to the top level for an epic visual.

the other day i wasnt going to tell the person i was playing that his IK couldnt charge me bc even though im three inches away you cant fit in the ruins haha sucka

most importantly you should have a good convo about terrain an what you expect out of it before the game..

 insaniak wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
What about a Dread Knight(or any other large model for that matter) declaring a charge against a unit on the second level of a ruin? It can make the charge because it rolled the correct distance plus going up a level, but there is no legal position to place the model on the ruin.

Wobbly model syndrome is for being able to let go of the model and have it stand in place, but moved to prevent it falling and being damaged. Not, the very tip of my base can squeeze in here so that is where it is at.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to that situation, there is no legal way for the Dreadknight to reach the enemy unit, so you would have been unable to declare the charge in the first place.

Okay, as your point on this issue has changed (from our earlier discussions of "simply fails"; it does not exist; etc), could you provide a quote of the rules which disallow you from declaring a Charge against a Unit you should technically have no issue reaching, but which you cannot get into base contact with?

Not being provocative here, just want to understand the exact system you are now going by and to see if it can change my point of view.

Here is an example of the most simplistic form:
A Space marine is 1.5" away from a 2" high Box, this box is about 0.5" x 0.5". The marine can easily reach and climb this box.
An ork moves past the marine, and gets on the box.
The marine now declare a charge against the ork, but cannot in any way reach B2B with this Ork (he is 2" higher after all).

 BlackTalos wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
What about a Dread Knight(or any other large model for that matter) declaring a charge against a unit on the second level of a ruin? It can make the charge because it rolled the correct distance plus going up a level, but there is no legal position to place the model on the ruin.

Wobbly model syndrome is for being able to let go of the model and have it stand in place, but moved to prevent it falling and being damaged. Not, the very tip of my base can squeeze in here so that is where it is at.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to that situation, there is no legal way for the Dreadknight to reach the enemy unit, so you would have been unable to declare the charge in the first place.

Okay, as your point on this issue has changed (from our earlier discussions of "simply fails"; it does not exist; etc), could you provide a quote of the rules which disallow you from declaring a Charge against a Unit you should technically have no issue reaching, but which you cannot get into base contact with?

Not being provocative here, just want to understand the exact system you are now going by and to see if it can change my point of view.

Here is an example of the most simplistic form:
A Space marine is 1.5" away from a 2" high Box, this box is about 0.5" x 0.5". The marine can easily reach and climb this box.
An ork moves past the marine, and gets on the box.
The marine now declare a charge against the ork, but cannot in any way reach B2B with this Ork (he is 2" higher after all).

You cannot reach the ork. Therefore you cannot declare a charge.

This is because no matter how high you roll, you can never reach B2B. Just like if the target unit was 20" away.

The easiest way to answer the question is to ask...

If you can't get into base to base, then how can you reach the unit? If you can't reach the unit, you can't declare the charge. So, just like in the real world, if an opponent is balanced on top of a small box, you can't reasonably run up, stand next to him (in mid air) and fight him. You'd stand at the bottom and throw rocks at him (shoot, shoot, shoot).

From a gaming standpoint, this isn't much of an issue. It just means you have to shoot enough in the preceding phase to get rid of at least one dude and thereby make some space. You only need to get one model into base to base to have a succesful charge.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, as your point on this issue has changed (from our earlier discussions of "simply fails"; it does not exist; etc),

My point hasn't changed.

The previous discussions have been about the fact that if you had declared the charge, and your movement is insufficient to bring you into contact with the enemy unit, your charge fails.

The point being made in this thread is that if it is evident that you will be unable to reach the enemy unit, then you can't actually declare the charge in the first place.

... could you provide a quote of the rules which disallow you from declaring a Charge against a Unit you should technically have no issue reaching, but which you cannot get into base contact with?

This question confuses me.

You want a rules quote that says that you can't declare a charge against a unit that you can reach, but that you can't reach?

Here is an example of the most simplistic form:
A Space marine is 1.5" away from a 2" high Box, this box is about 0.5" x 0.5". The marine can easily reach and climb this box.
An ork moves past the marine, and gets on the box.
The marine now declare a charge against the ork, ...

Since it is readily apparent that he will be unable to reach base contact with the ork, you can not declare a charge against it.

If you did declare a charge against it, then your charge would fail because no amount of charge distance you roll will be sufficient to allow the marine to move into base contact.

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, as your point on this issue has changed (from our earlier discussions of "simply fails"; it does not exist; etc),

My point hasn't changed.

The previous discussions have been about the fact that if you had declared the charge, and your movement is insufficient to bring you into contact with the enemy unit, your charge fails.

The point being made in this thread is that if it is evident that you will be unable to reach the enemy unit, then you can't actually declare the charge in the first place.

... could you provide a quote of the rules which disallow you from declaring a Charge against a Unit you should technically have no issue reaching, but which you cannot get into base contact with?

This question confuses me.

You want a rules quote that says that you can't declare a charge against a unit that you can reach, but that you can't reach?

Here is an example of the most simplistic form:
A Space marine is 1.5" away from a 2" high Box, this box is about 0.5" x 0.5". The marine can easily reach and climb this box.
An ork moves past the marine, and gets on the box.
The marine now declare a charge against the ork, ...

Since it is readily apparent that he will be unable to reach base contact with the ork, you can not declare a charge against it.

If you did declare a charge against it, then your charge would fail because no amount of charge distance you roll will be sufficient to allow the marine to move into base contact.

The Box would be considered a Barricade/Wall. As per Pg. 109 "Battlefield Debris" moving into base contact with the box would count as being in base contact.

Balisong wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, as your point on this issue has changed (from our earlier discussions of "simply fails"; it does not exist; etc),

My point hasn't changed.

The previous discussions have been about the fact that if you had declared the charge, and your movement is insufficient to bring you into contact with the enemy unit, your charge fails.

The point being made in this thread is that if it is evident that you will be unable to reach the enemy unit, then you can't actually declare the charge in the first place.

... could you provide a quote of the rules which disallow you from declaring a Charge against a Unit you should technically have no issue reaching, but which you cannot get into base contact with?

This question confuses me.

You want a rules quote that says that you can't declare a charge against a unit that you can reach, but that you can't reach?

Here is an example of the most simplistic form:
A Space marine is 1.5" away from a 2" high Box, this box is about 0.5" x 0.5". The marine can easily reach and climb this box.
An ork moves past the marine, and gets on the box.
The marine now declare a charge against the ork, ...

Since it is readily apparent that he will be unable to reach base contact with the ork, you can not declare a charge against it.

If you did declare a charge against it, then your charge would fail because no amount of charge distance you roll will be sufficient to allow the marine to move into base contact.

The Box would be considered a Barricade/Wall. As per Pg. 109 "Battlefield Debris" moving into base contact with the box would count as being in base contact.

That's not what the rule says.

It says you'd be in base contact with the other side of the wall, not the top of the wall.
And that's if you decide the box is a barricade.

IMHO it is simply sloppy work to have a rules discussion without writing out all the rules that relate. I'm at work and don't have my BRB with me or I'd do it. Can one of you kind souls please write out the rules for what a successful charge is and what a successful charge isn't?

The relevant rule for this discussion has been posted twice already in this thread.

@Insaniak, you might want to reread the discussion real closely... the only "Quotes" I can find are referenced below and everything else looks like paraphrasing to me. The difference in this kind of discussion is HUGE. I guess I'll just wait till I get home and have a look at my BRB, but thanks for trying.

"quotes" I found in the discussion:

The rulebook states: A Unit cannot declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, this being normal max charge range (12). So for an example: a unit rolls to charge, gets 8. Moves the initial charger so that it is now 6 inches away from the squad it was charging.

For declare charge the rule text is:
"A unit can never DECLARE a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

Models that are in base contact with a barricade or wall are treated as being in base contact with any enemy models who are directly opposite them and in base contact with the other side of that barricade or wall. Units charging an enemy that is behind a barricade or wall count as charging through difficult terrain.

(note the lack of any definition of a successful charge here)