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Suppose there is a squad of Grey Knights (Strike squad) and attached is Tigurius and a GK Librarian. If the Justicar casts Hammerhand does the entire unit including the two ICs benefit? Suppose either Tigurius, the GK Librarian or Justicar cast Force - again does the entire unit including the two ICs benefit ?

Thanks.

What do those powers say? Do they say all models in the unit gain the benefit or only some of them? Remembering that ICs are considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.

It's the entire unit that benefits.

Both those are unit powers. First time playing againnt gks lol?

No - I've been playing GK allied with SM and wasn't sure... Should have checked the rules. There was a concern since some TOs don't allow the same unit to cast the same power twice during one psychic phase. No worries now.

No, they shouldn't allow the same power from the same unit twice in one phase. It's strictly disallowed in the BRB.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
No, they shouldn't allow the same power from the same unit twice in one phase. It's strictly disallowed in the BRB.

Only if you believe a Psyker stops being a Psyker when he joins a non-pychic unit. And that the game breaks if the Psyker joins a Psychic Brotherhood unit that has a different mastery lvl...

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
No, they shouldn't allow the same power from the same unit twice in one phase. It's strictly disallowed in the BRB.

Doesn't matter for this particular case since both powers affect the unit not just the caster.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
No, they shouldn't allow the same power from the same unit twice in one phase. It's strictly disallowed in the BRB.

Doesn't matter for this particular case since both powers affect the unit not just the caster.

It does matter if the cast fails and you want to try again with another pyscher. But that's up to the TO because currently the psychic rules are broken.

What's broke about them ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What's broke about them ?

That the BRB prohibits Psyker units from casting the same powers twice.

What happens when a Psyker IC joins a brotherhood of Psyker unit? Or another Psyker IC?

The end result is that they are still a "Psyker unit".

The Psyker rules prohibit Psyker Units from casting the same power. You also add mastery lvls for Psyker Units when determining Warp Charge. You also select Psyker Units when manifesting powers.

What this means is the interpretation where multiple Psykers in the same unit can't manifest the same powers has the following results. A Psyker in a non-Psyker unit ceases being a Psyker. When a lvl1 Psyker joins a lvl1 Psykuc Brotherhood they generate just 1 Warp Charge between them. When a lvl2 Psyker joins a Lvl1 Brotherhood we have literally no way of determining how much Warp Charge they generate.

So most people don't follow that interpretation because it is dumb.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Psyker rules prohibit Psyker Units from casting the same power. You also add mastery lvls for Psyker Units when determining Warp Charge. You also select Psyker Units when manifesting powers.

What this means is the interpretation where multiple Psykers in the same unit can't manifest the same powers has the following results. A Psyker in a non-Psyker unit ceases being a Psyker. When a lvl1 Psyker joins a lvl1 Psykuc Brotherhood they generate just 1 Warp Charge between them. When a lvl2 Psyker joins a Lvl1 Brotherhood we have literally no way of determining how much Warp Charge they generate.

So most people don't follow that interpretation because it is dumb.

HYWPI = add up all master lvls independently, but prohibit the unit from casting the same power more than once?

HYWPI Psyker Unit does not refer to units but instead can refer to a unit or an IC and whilst joined to other units the Psyker remains a separate Psyker Unit. Presto all the rules work. But 3 Spiritseers in a unit can all cast Psychic Shriek. Makes the most sense to me.

I'm with you FlingItNow.

Yeah, don't look too closely at the psyker rules. They completely break down if you do.

 FlingitNow wrote:
HYWPI Psyker Unit does not refer to units but instead can refer to a unit or an IC and whilst joined to other units the Psyker remains a separate Psyker Unit. Presto all the rules work. But 3 Spiritseers in a unit can all cast Psychic Shriek. Makes the most sense to me.

100% this. It also falls in line with the whole 'an IC attached to a unit is still kinda a unit on his own' logic you see GW use when determinting the number of units held in reserve, the number of vctory points you earn for wiping out a unit that included an IC and a few other things.

The joke in my group is "An IC that joins a unit is a member of that unit for all rules purposes, except when its not."

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Psyker rules prohibit Psyker Units from casting the same power.

No they don't.

They prohibit the same unit from casting the same power twice. It's the one place that the psychic rules refer to just the unit rather than to the psyker or psyker unit.

If you think of Psyker Unit as "Psyker Entity" instead all the rules make sense. As long as you break the assumption that the unit in "Psyker Unit" has anything to do with the game defined term "unit" then the rules are OK. I assume this is just a poor choice of word much like the Allied Detachment which people often confuse for being how you takes Allies...

But that's just the point. If you assume that a psyker unit is a specific thing that is distinct from actual unit, then your unit that contains two joined psykers can have both psykers casting independently... but is still stuck with them not both casting the same power, because the unit, rather than the psyker unit is what is prohibited from casting the same power twice.

Context otherwise you can have a Grey Knight Strike squad manifesting Malefic powers because an attached SM Libby knows them. The start of that paragraph talks about Psyker Units and it is less broken (from a workability sense not power level) to assume that they are still talking about Psyker Units rather than Units. As I stated this is my HYWPI because it makes sense to me and tries to use the written rules as much as possible.

Perhaps I got confused reading the thread, seems some people suggested a unit can have hammerhand twice.

which it cannot as per the blessings, regardless of how many times it was cast and who cast it when.

as for Force, it targets the unit, but only gives the bonus to models that have the Force special rule.

as for psyker unit, yeah. The psychic rules have some holes.

I think most people play a unit of psykers with an attached psyker as two different psyker units for the psychic phase. Despite there being no RAW stating this, it makes more sense as otherwise you have to invent rules on how to generate WC for a mixed unit like that, and how powers work when a unit with powers x,y,z joins a unit with powers ab,z.

Which is fair but it should be a two way street, for things like deny, things that affect units with psykers, etc.

No one was saying a unit can receive the benefit of the same blessing more than once.

I think this is the problem with Insaniak's claim, as Fling sort of pointed out.

BRB p 24, "Select Psyker and Psychic Power wrote:Then, select a psychic power know to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase.

If "unit" means "group of models in coherency," then my GKSS can cast Vortex of Doom because my attached IC Libby knows it, or my Horrors can cast Prescience because my attached Tzerald knows it.
However, if "unit" here means "Psychic unit," (which must mean the unit in army list composition), then Psykers can only cast powers they themselves know.
NOW, if we apply "unit=army list composition" to the whole Psychic Phase section, we conclude that the line at the bottom left of BRB p24 means my Inquisitor and my Psyker he is attached to can both cast Psychic Shriek (so long as they both generated it at the start of game).

If your point is that the psychic rules are a mess that needs house rules to function, you're not going to get any disagreement here...

If it helps, I've been handling it thusly:

If the squad is listed as being comprised of 3 psyker models and only provides a net Mastery Level 1, then it is a single unit.

More often the case though, if a unit is comprised of multiple psykers each with a listed Mastery Level, they are treated seperately.

For instance:

I have 3 X models in my X squad for a total squad Mastery Level of 1 ( as per the army list entry)

I add 1 Y model, an IC, to squad which has a Mastery Level of 2.

Together, they form a squad that has two units both contributing towards the total for my Psychic Phase.

If X+Y casts Crush, neither unit may cast Crush again during that Psychic Phase.

(After all, the Mastery Level 1 unit -did- contribute to your dice pool. It 'helped' cast.)

How we play it is the following, and I think it makes the most sense and it doesn't break any of the rules.

You treat each individual psychic entity as a seperate "unit", so you add up Mastery levels to generate dice, and if 2 psykers in the same unit know the same power they can both cast it. Obviously, the same power will not stack. But if I cast Force with one psyker and failed, it would not stop my other psyker from attempting to do the same and possibly succeed.

Example: You have a Grey Knight Librarian(ML3) and an Allied DA Librarian(ML1) in a unit of GK Terminators(ML1)

When generating Warp Charges, you will generate 5 from the above models. 3 from the GK librarian, 1 from the DA Librarian, and 1 from the GKTs.

All 3 psykers know the Force power. So, you could cast Force up to 3 times. Only one casting would activate every Force Weapon in the unit, but you would have 3 chances to activate.

Likewise, if the GK Librarian and the Squad know Hammer Hand, then you could attempt to manifest the power twice. Again, if it was successfully cast twice you would gain no additional benefit, but you could reattempt with the second psyker if the first one failed.

I believe this is what is intended, RAW is simply too messy to make heads or tails of.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How we play it is the following, and I think it makes the most sense and it doesn't break any of the rules.

You treat each individual psychic entity as a seperate "unit", so you add up Mastery levels to generate dice, and if 2 psykers in the same unit know the same power they can both cast it. Obviously, the same power will not stack. But if I cast Force with one psyker and failed, it would not stop my other psyker from attempting to do the same and possibly succeed.

Example: You have a Grey Knight Librarian(ML3) and an Allied DA Librarian(ML1) in a unit of GK Terminators(ML1)

When generating Warp Charges, you will generate 5 from the above models. 3 from the GK librarian, 1 from the DA Librarian, and 1 from the GKTs.

All 3 psykers know the Force power. So, you could cast Force up to 3 times. Only one casting would activate every Force Weapon in the unit, but you would have 3 chances to activate.

Likewise, if the GK Librarian and the Squad know Hammer Hand, then you could attempt to manifest the power twice. Again, if it was successfully cast twice you would gain no additional benefit, but you could reattempt with the second psyker if the first one failed.

I believe this is what is intended, RAW is simply too messy to make heads or tails of.

It's also important to note that this is functionally the same outside of Perils of the Warp.

Using 10 dice to cast it or using 5 dice twice is still 10 dice. It's just important to note that if you allow the casters to act independently of one another, they must take perils independently for each cast. (Where applicable)

 Grey Templar wrote:
How we play it is the following, and I think it makes the most sense and it doesn't break any of the rules.

You treat each individual psychic entity as a seperate "unit", so you add up Mastery levels to generate dice, and if 2 psykers in the same unit know the same power they can both cast it. Obviously, the same power will not stack. But if I cast Force with one psyker and failed, it would not stop my other psyker from attempting to do the same and possibly succeed.

Example: You have a Grey Knight Librarian(ML3) and an Allied DA Librarian(ML1) in a unit of GK Terminators(ML1)

When generating Warp Charges, you will generate 5 from the above models. 3 from the GK librarian, 1 from the DA Librarian, and 1 from the GKTs.

All 3 psykers know the Force power. So, you could cast Force up to 3 times. Only one casting would activate every Force Weapon in the unit, but you would have 3 chances to activate.

Likewise, if the GK Librarian and the Squad know Hammer Hand, then you could attempt to manifest the power twice. Again, if it was successfully cast twice you would gain no additional benefit, but you could reattempt with the second psyker if the first one failed.

I believe this is what is intended, RAW is simply too messy to make heads or tails of.

At the least, this is the only way to play it that doesn't follow a train of logic that leads the rest of the psychic phase into complete ruin if thoroughly applied to all other aspects of it. It's not so much RAW or RAI as it is "let's make this work in a reasonable manner".