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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Well, if our one lonely special snowflake hero does end up being Draigo coming out the other end of Chaos, who knows what the guy is capable of at that point?

Plus I thought whatever we see in 9th is going to be some time after... time ended. Like centuries and stuff. Good chance for new fluff to start, especially with all the aftermath of what's occurred and how the various factions plan on rebuilding.

Considering the talk about other worlds, I'd say at most the world ended, but not the whole universe.

And even that isn't something that is automatically the end of everything.

When the world is an integral part of the setting, yes it is.

We're not talking about the equivalent of the old philosophical conundrum about the broom here(if you replace this bit and that bit of a broom over many years as they break or wear out until eventually none of the original parts remain, is it still the same broom?), we're talking about breaking the broom in half over your knee, stomping up and down on the remains until they're splinters, burning the splinters, then going out and buying a hoover. Yes, you still technically possess a device for cleaning your floor, but trying to pretend it's even remotely the same is the height of sophistry.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Didn't Dwarf Slayers have a gatling-axe chucking catapult as well?

Seriously.

Manned by a Slayer-Engineer, yeah.

Is it bad that it was still better designed and done than the current End Times AXES ON CHAINS OF BLOOD MCBLOODBLOOD BLOOD?

I also like how Slaanesh and Tzeentch sort of took their holidays before the End Times though. Makes me kind of sad we won't see the love for them.

Slaanesh: "Hey guys we're back! We brought presents. And yes, they ARE sexually suggestive"
Tzeentch: "So did we miss anything while we were away"

Khorne and Nurgle trade a shifty glance

Tzeentch: "Hey! Whos been touching my stuff! Where did my Old World go?!"

Khorne and Nurgle wander off whistling.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Is it bad that it was still better designed and done than the current End Times AXES ON CHAINS OF BLOOD MCBLOODBLOOD BLOOD?

I also like how Slaanesh and Tzeentch sort of took their holidays before the End Times though. Makes me kind of sad we won't see the love for them.

GW's thinking on Chaos is so one-dimensionally "Chaos must be evil! Chaos must destroy everything!"* that they crafted a plot and conclusion that has no room for silly things like pleasure and hope. Tzeentch and Slaanesh have nothing to gain whatsoever from completely destroying a world, so I guess GW just didn't bother addressing it at all, putting their hands over their ears and saying "The chaos gods all wanted this! Why? Lalala I can't hear you!"


*so one dimensionally evil that even friggin' Nagash is teaming up with the good guys at the end.

*so one dimensionally evil that even friggin' Nagash is teaming up with the good guys at the end.

Evil is such a weak concept to begin with. Evil doesn't really even exist. Hunger for power over others, wealth, immortality, all of that is understandable for a sane person. Even psychopaths that murder for the sake of murdering have a reason they're doing it -- A mental illness, a trauma that caused them to in fact go crazy and do something that doesn't benefit them or anyone else in any way. They're in fact dysfunctional, antisocial and mentally handicapped people, and there's neuroscience that proves it. Good and evil are just names people used for behaviour they can't explain in more scientific and accurate means.

Chaos Gods on the other hand are like babies in a sandbox who just randomly throw their toys around, and now in the storyline we're witnessing a tantrum where they just stomp over all the sand castles they've built. Next I think they'll start crying and looking at mommy and wondering what happens next. That's the only way I can rationalise the behaviour of these fictional 'Chaos Gods'.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Well, if our one lonely special snowflake hero does end up being Draigo coming out the other end of Chaos, who knows what the guy is capable of at that point?

Plus I thought whatever we see in 9th is going to be some time after... time ended. Like centuries and stuff. Good chance for new fluff to start, especially with all the aftermath of what's occurred and how the various factions plan on rebuilding.

Considering the talk about other worlds, I'd say at most the world ended, but not the whole universe.

And even that isn't something that is automatically the end of everything.

When the world is an integral part of the setting, yes it is.

We're not talking about the equivalent of the old philosophical conundrum about the broom here(if you replace this bit and that bit of a broom over many years as they break or wear out until eventually none of the original parts remain, is it still the same broom?), we're talking about breaking the broom in half over your knee, stomping up and down on the remains until they're splinters, burning the splinters, then going out and buying a hoover. Yes, you still technically possess a device for cleaning your floor, but trying to pretend it's even remotely the same is the height of sophistry.

Exactly. At the end of the book, they explicitly destroyed everything. Every character, every army, every living thing in the Warhammer world is dead. For them to bring back any of the current kits, they have to engage in a serious erasure of what they've just written.

In a way, it makes sense. One of the rumors for this new edition is that they'll be implementing short-run, limited edition kits that will only be available for a short time and then gone forever. What if the End Times kits are the first of these?

They certainly lost a lot of their nuance over the years. Nurgle was never originally just about disease, he was also about hope.
Khorne went from being a martial god to KILLMAIMBURNBLOOD BLOODAXEWHIPCHAIN and lost any kind of subtlty at all.
Slaanesh no doubt made the PR guys trying to sell plasticrack to kids uncomfortable.
Tzeentch, well how do you represent twistyness and long term conspiracy on the tabletop when Lord Commander Chainaxe McBloodsplatter is wandering around spweing skulls everywhere.

 Guildsman wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Well, if our one lonely special snowflake hero does end up being Draigo coming out the other end of Chaos, who knows what the guy is capable of at that point?

Plus I thought whatever we see in 9th is going to be some time after... time ended. Like centuries and stuff. Good chance for new fluff to start, especially with all the aftermath of what's occurred and how the various factions plan on rebuilding.

Considering the talk about other worlds, I'd say at most the world ended, but not the whole universe.

And even that isn't something that is automatically the end of everything.

When the world is an integral part of the setting, yes it is.

We're not talking about the equivalent of the old philosophical conundrum about the broom here(if you replace this bit and that bit of a broom over many years as they break or wear out until eventually none of the original parts remain, is it still the same broom?), we're talking about breaking the broom in half over your knee, stomping up and down on the remains until they're splinters, burning the splinters, then going out and buying a hoover. Yes, you still technically possess a device for cleaning your floor, but trying to pretend it's even remotely the same is the height of sophistry.

Exactly. At the end of the book, they explicitly destroyed everything. Every character, every army, every living thing in the Warhammer world is dead. For them to bring back any of the current kits, they have to engage in a serious erasure of what they've just written.

In a way, it makes sense. One of the rumors for this new edition is that they'll be implementing short-run, limited edition kits that will only be available for a short time and then gone forever. What if the End Times kits are the first of these?

If they release WHFB 9Ed and just dismiss the End Times like they did Storm of Chaos and leave the game relatively unchanged then I think that would almost be worse than just destroying the game and starting over completely new.

 Pete Melvin wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Didn't Dwarf Slayers have a gatling-axe chucking catapult as well?

Seriously.

Manned by a Slayer-Engineer, yeah.

Is it bad that it was still better designed and done than the current End Times AXES ON CHAINS OF BLOOD MCBLOODBLOOD BLOOD?

I also like how Slaanesh and Tzeentch sort of took their holidays before the End Times though. Makes me kind of sad we won't see the love for them.

Slaanesh: "Hey guys we're back! We brought presents. And yes, they ARE sexually suggestive"
Tzeentch: "So did we miss anything while we were away"

Khorne and Nurgle trade a shifty glance

Tzeentch: "Hey! Whos been touching my stuff! Where did my Old World go?!"

Khorne and Nurgle wander off whistling.

Congratulations, I have just spat my drink all over my nice sofa, you sir owe me a damn new sofa!
Oh, I'm also claiming this for my sig, thanks

How many people though play the game and read non of the fluff? I have not read a single book... Still enjoy the game. I would imagine its like that for alot of people as well, not all but I bet alot. Old world, new world, no world.. Wouldnt change anything really.

 tomball0706 wrote:



Congratulations, I have just spat my drink all over my nice sofa, you sir owe me a damn new sofa!
Oh, I'm also claiming this for my sig, thanks

Then the Changer of Ways plan is complete. Another liquid-based victory for Chaos.

Chopxsticks wrote:
How many people though play the game and read non of the fluff? I have not read a single book... Still enjoy the game. I would imagine its like that for alot of people as well, not all but I bet alot. Old world, new world, no world.. Wouldnt change anything really.

Thats like some of the guys I play Bolt Action with who know nothing about WW2. Its depressing is what that is.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I must have missed the time where GW cut a huge number of their new plastic kits.

Because according to the lists that have been thrown out as part of this whole 9th edition rumor, that's what is happening.

They cut a lot of metals, its kinda the same. They have shown they will just dump stock instead of putting it in a sale.

Same with Specialist Games. Do you remember the Massive withdrawal of stock during 2nd and 3rd 40k and the corresponding Warhammer.

They've shown they will cut ranges and entire games simply because they feel like it. From what I have come to understand Warhammer 9th will be Warband based. Maybe a big hero, or 2 and some core guys, maybe a " big kit as support" but yeah... its Going this way.

There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Is it bad that it was still better designed and done than the current End Times AXES ON CHAINS OF BLOOD MCBLOODBLOOD BLOOD?

I also like how Slaanesh and Tzeentch sort of took their holidays before the End Times though. Makes me kind of sad we won't see the love for them.

GW's thinking on Chaos is so one-dimensionally "Chaos must be evil! Chaos must destroy everything!"* that they crafted a plot and conclusion that has no room for silly things like pleasure and hope. Tzeentch and Slaanesh have nothing to gain whatsoever from completely destroying a world, so I guess GW just didn't bother addressing it at all, putting their hands over their ears and saying "The chaos gods all wanted this! Why? Lalala I can't hear you!"


*so one dimensionally evil that even friggin' Nagash is teaming up with the good guys at the end.

Or Tzeentch knew this was coming, and simply waited, knowing Franz would survive to try to recreate the world, letting Tzeentch have fun with all the recreation and new dynamics, while Slaanesh enjoyed the self-destructive phase and is now going to join Tzeentch in all this new creation and new life. Helps that they are in opposition to Nurgle and Khorne, it would let the first two have their fun destroying the Old World, and the other two get some time in the spotlight in the new world with 9th edition.

Franz recreates what he can of the old world, but Tzeentch corrupts those plans, causing much of the old stuff to be lost and the new world to be in disarray. Slaanesh is enjoying all the new sensations and corruption.
Bein a new world, war and decay have not had time to really gain a foothold, putting Khorne and Nurgle on a weaker footing for now.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Well, if our one lonely special snowflake hero does end up being Draigo coming out the other end of Chaos, who knows what the guy is capable of at that point?

Plus I thought whatever we see in 9th is going to be some time after... time ended. Like centuries and stuff. Good chance for new fluff to start, especially with all the aftermath of what's occurred and how the various factions plan on rebuilding.

Considering the talk about other worlds, I'd say at most the world ended, but not the whole universe.

And even that isn't something that is automatically the end of everything.

When the world is an integral part of the setting, yes it is.

We're not talking about the equivalent of the old philosophical conundrum about the broom here(if you replace this bit and that bit of a broom over many years as they break or wear out until eventually none of the original parts remain, is it still the same broom?), we're talking about breaking the broom in half over your knee, stomping up and down on the remains until they're splinters, burning the splinters, then going out and buying a hoover. Yes, you still technically possess a device for cleaning your floor, but trying to pretend it's even remotely the same is the height of sophistry.

Exactly. At the end of the book, they explicitly destroyed everything. Every character, every army, every living thing in the Warhammer world is dead. For them to bring back any of the current kits, they have to engage in a serious erasure of what they've just written.

In a way, it makes sense. One of the rumors for this new edition is that they'll be implementing short-run, limited edition kits that will only be available for a short time and then gone forever. What if the End Times kits are the first of these?

If they release WHFB 9Ed and just dismiss the End Times like they did Storm of Chaos and leave the game relatively unchanged then I think that would almost be worse than just destroying the game and starting over completely new.

It really, really, really, really, really, really wouldn't.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

What is exclusive to GW is dumping stock instead of first putting it on sale to attempt to get something out of it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

Where did i claim it was exclusive? its not they USED to have sales. you said they don't have a habit of dumping kits i proved otherwise.

migooo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

Where did i claim it was exclusive? its not they USED to have sales. you said they don't have a habit of dumping kits i proved otherwise.

I love how you focus in on the second part.
YOU are the one who brought up "dumping stock", sales and other nonsense. That is not the same as cutting down the range.

The rumors that we are getting right now are that huge swathes of the Fantasy range are not simply having "dumped stock", but rather being cut entirely from existence. No replacements(which is when they usually DESTROY stock, not dump it) to be had, just genericized nonsense.

It's entirely beyond the pale to think that kits like the Treeman Ancient, the new Verminlords, the Mortarchs, etc are going to be cut from existence. Especially when we're also talking about two kits for Wood Elves(Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn and Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers) that just got put as mandatory stock for independents also being on that list of kits that are going to be discontinued/destroyed within the next few months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

What is exclusive to GW is dumping stock instead of first putting it on sale to attempt to get something out of it.

Yeah, let's put army books on sale! That's totally helpful!


The only real argument for them to put things on sale is when we're talking about really old models like the current Eldar range. The majority of the other items(such as metals) are still priced lower than the equivalent resin/plastic model--and generally they'll still be available up until the new items actually go up for sale.

Saldiven wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

What is exclusive to GW is dumping stock instead of first putting it on sale to attempt to get something out of it.

Also I am not sure where everyone is getting the idea that they have dropped a fortune in making molds, there all made internally by staff on the company payroll using there own machines, so the only additional cost when making the molds is materials and the time spent making a whfb mold when they could be making some kind of space marine

 Kanluwen wrote:

migooo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a difference between the cost of metal molds and plastic molds.

And to pretend as well that "dumping stock instead of putting it in a sale" is exclusive to GW is silly.

Where did i claim it was exclusive? its not they USED to have sales. you said they don't have a habit of dumping kits i proved otherwise.

I love how you focus in on the second part.
YOU are the one who brought up "dumping stock", sales and other nonsense. That is not the same as cutting down the range.

The rumors that we are getting right now are that huge swathes of the Fantasy range are not simply having "dumped stock", but rather being cut entirely from existence. No replacements(which is when they usually DESTROY stock, not dump it) to be had, just genericized nonsense.

It's entirely beyond the pale to think that kits like the Treeman Ancient, the new Verminlords, the Mortarchs, etc are going to be cut from existence. Especially when

Why would i argue on a point when your right but if I must they've dumped plastic kits before they have i just didnt feel like correcting you but fine.
Space dwarves - a plastic kit. Dumped, Space marines original plastic kit guess what??? dumped replaced by metals and then eventually plastic kits, ork battle wagon, Dumped,? replaced years later ( i think it was like over a decade but if i must ill look it up. )


but we will see whos right wont we me somebody whos seen 3 decades of this or you. I'm honestly too old for this I'm sorry oh defender of the great and fantastic Mr Kirby and the board... can you leave me alone now?

They used to produce specialist games they cut it, the Necromunda bulkheads were plastic as were the goliath and other gang whos name which escapes me as were the plastic orks for Gorkamorka

They used to make a range for Lotr back in the 80s as well as Judge Dredd and dr who stuff all gone...

limited kits stuff that was dumped for storm of chaos the dwarf doomseekers ( which i missed getting), lustria (limited setting) the Vampire pirates bag and those are just off the top of my head and ill give you the second one as it was just 2 other kits combined but still. Used to be sold for a limited time then not.

lets also not forget the seeker chariot that was out that was 2 kits in 1 box for like 3/4 of the price. you can still make it if you buy 2 chariots i guess... but still plastic box ltd edition.


last edit - im going to release godzilla

Also hang on Kan you think because independents have been forced to take a kit that gw won't get rid of it.

Sounds like a good way to run down stock to me, although I admit those kits do seem like ones to keep.

I absolutely LOVE when people try to bring the whole "I've been around for longer than you!" card into this.

LOTR, Judge Dredd, and Dr. Who stuff was all done under license. Did you really expect them to continue selling it without the license?

And quite frankly, what you do not seem to grasp is that all of the examples you gave(barring the Squats) were replaced. Whether they were replaced by a metal or a plastic kit or a macaroni and cheese do it yourself kit, they got a replacement(unless they were Squats).

The rumors, again, are that a significant number of plastic kits are not being "dumped "to get replaced--they're just flatout getting DUMPED.

Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers and Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn were put onto the mandatory stockist list, purportedly, and both kits have also been mentioned as two of the kits to vanish when this forthcoming edition hits.

So please, put the whole "you young whippersnapper"(for the record? I've been into WHFB since 1997, when I was 10 years old. I have seen plenty of how the current GW) attitude aside and try using a bit of critical thinking.

migooo wrote:limited kits stuff that was dumped for storm of chaos the dwarf doomseekers ( which i missed getting), lustria (limited setting) the Vampire pirates bag and those are just off the top of my head and ill give you the second one as it was just 2 other kits combined but still. Used to be sold for a limited time then not.

The Sartosan Vampire Pirate was still up for sale as of last year. He's actually in some of the photos that just got leaked from "Archaon", so I would not be surprised to see him released soon for another go around.

The Dwarf Doomseekers and the Goblin-Hewer both remained for sale for at least two years following Storm of Chaos(with the latter being able to be taken as a Dog of War option for Dwarfs).

 Kanluwen wrote:
I absolutely LOVE when people try to bring the whole "I've been around for longer than you!" card into this.

LOTR, Judge Dredd, and Dr. Who stuff was all done under license. Did you really expect them to continue selling it without the license?

And quite frankly, what you do not seem to grasp is that all of the examples you gave(barring the Squats) were replaced. Whether they were replaced by a metal or a plastic kit or a macaroni and cheese do it yourself kit, they got a replacement(unless they were Squats).

The rumors, again, are that a significant number of plastic kits are not being "dumped "to get replaced--they're just flatout getting DUMPED.

Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers and Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn were put onto the mandatory stockist list, purportedly, and both kits have also been mentioned as two of the kits to vanish when this forthcoming edition hits.

So please, put the whole "you young whippersnapper"(for the record? I've been into WHFB since 1997, when I was 10 years old. I have seen plenty of how the current GW) attitude aside and try using a bit of critical thinking.

migooo wrote:limited kits stuff that was dumped for storm of chaos the dwarf doomseekers ( which i missed getting), lustria (limited setting) the Vampire pirates bag and those are just off the top of my head and ill give you the second one as it was just 2 other kits combined but still. Used to be sold for a limited time then not.

The Sartosan Vampire Pirate was still up for sale as of last year. He's actually in some of the photos that just got leaked from "Archaon", so I would not be surprised to see him released soon for another go around.

The Dwarf Doomseekers and the Goblin-Hewer both remained for sale for at least two years following Storm of Chaos(with the latter being able to be taken as a Dog of War option for Dwarfs).

were specialist games replaced?

SeanDrake wrote:
Also hang on Kan you think because independents have been forced to take a kit that gw won't get rid of it.

Sounds like a good way to run down stock to me, although I admit those kits do seem like ones to keep.

It does sound like a good way to run down stock, but at the same time?
These trade terms were supposedly set down very recently, and are intended to last until next year.

The new edition of WHFB is supposed to hit in the next few months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

migooo wrote:

were specialist games replaced?

How many Specialist Games lines were purely plastic?

 Kanluwen wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Also hang on Kan you think because independents have been forced to take a kit that gw won't get rid of it.

Sounds like a good way to run down stock to me, although I admit those kits do seem like ones to keep.

It does sound like a good way to run down stock, but at the same time?
These trade terms were supposedly set down very recently, and are intended to last until next year.

The new edition of WHFB is supposed to hit in the next few months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

migooo wrote:

were specialist games replaced?

How many Specialist Games lines were purely plastic?

Wait your whole argument that kits wont go is that there plastic?


And you think i don't use critical thinking


Plastic molds are not as expensive as they once were. And from rumors some kits are supposed to have a duration of 6 months soon.

maybe in the usa Doomseekers were around 2 years but i think much less time in the UK

And you think that they would legitimately have kits around for 6 months?

 Kanluwen wrote:
And you think that they would legitimately have kits around for 6 months?

I honestly wouldn't put anything past them.

migooo wrote:
They have done it before so yeah they will do it again.

I doubt when Specialist Games was axed that they had as much in inventory as they do WFB.

I believe all the 'lists' of kits that will survive the transition were specifically described by the original rumour monger as INCOMPLETE,

this fact did seem to be lost when the list was reproduced

so while we may well see a bunch of stuff disappear I expect most of it will be the metal, finecast and maybe really old plastic kits which are too similar to historicals (sorry Bretonia)

 Yodhrin wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Well, if our one lonely special snowflake hero does end up being Draigo coming out the other end of Chaos, who knows what the guy is capable of at that point?

Plus I thought whatever we see in 9th is going to be some time after... time ended. Like centuries and stuff. Good chance for new fluff to start, especially with all the aftermath of what's occurred and how the various factions plan on rebuilding.

Considering the talk about other worlds, I'd say at most the world ended, but not the whole universe.

And even that isn't something that is automatically the end of everything.

When the world is an integral part of the setting, yes it is.

We're not talking about the equivalent of the old philosophical conundrum about the broom here(if you replace this bit and that bit of a broom over many years as they break or wear out until eventually none of the original parts remain, is it still the same broom?), we're talking about breaking the broom in half over your knee, stomping up and down on the remains until they're splinters, burning the splinters, then going out and buying a hoover. Yes, you still technically possess a device for cleaning your floor, but trying to pretend it's even remotely the same is the height of sophistry.

They've already been pulling that broom thing over a few decades now. Let's be honest, the game isn't the same thing a number of people bought into, and while some don't mind the changes, others have.

This is just (potentially) the most drastic change for the game so far.

migooo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And you think that they would legitimately have kits around for 6 months?

I honestly wouldn't put anything past them.

As it stands, the rumor is that they are going to do "Limited Edition kits" with shelf lives of 6 months(or until the production run sells out). That's ridiculous to take at anywhere near face value, unless we're talking about things somehow tied in to campaign boxes or things of that nature like we have seen with 40k.

Now if the rumor were that they were going to change the distribution model for new kits, and have them be in stores for 6 months before going Direct Only?
That is a believable rumor.