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Hi guys,

so I'm moving from GW to Vallejo for my paints, and picked up five paints from the Vallejo Game Color series. If you're interested/if it matters, we're talking about the following:
- 72.023: Electric Blue
- 72.008: Orange Fire
- 72.011: Gory Red
- 72.034: Bonewhite
- 72.006: Sun Yellow

I didn't try the blue and bonewhite yet, but I wanted to use the red, orange, and yellow to paint a fire on one of my banners, but I found that the paints were incredibly thin, so much so that about 10 layers of each color were necessary for full coverage. So a bunch of questions popped up in my head, and now I turn to you to find the answer:

- Are Vallejo paints supposed to be that thin? I did shake each bottle for a minute or two before use, but they were still so thin they barely provided any coverage and ran everywhere.
- I've only painted models for half a year and only know what the guy at my local GW store told me when I bought my first set of paints - base paints to get the base color, shades to get, well, shades, and layers for highlights. Does the Vallejo Model Color range include any paints that are as thick as the GW base paints? If so, how can I tell them apart from the rest of the range?

My plan is to phase out GW completely, and I know lots of people are happy with the Vallejo paints, so I'm assuming that I'm doing something wrong. If Vallejo is indeed this thin, are there any other brands of paints out there that are thicker but still priced reasonably?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

The pigments have likely settled heavily at the bottom. Pull the dropper off and stir it up with a brush handle.

They ARE thinner than GW paints usually are, but that is a good thing.

Also keep in mind that Reds and Yellows are difficult to cover in one coat. Put a basecoat of brown under the red or yellow and you will have a much easier time of things.

Ask and you shall receive... so I embarrassingly have to admitt that I read the wrong FAQ section, and after looking again I found answers to most of my questions there.

 Todosi wrote:

*snip*

Very good tips! Thank you, I will try them next time I paint my models.

1. What level of painter would you consider yourself? 1-10 1-being new and 10 being golden daemon level
2. do you use an airbrush?
3. what color do you prime with and do you always use the same color?
4. Is it vallejo game color or vallejo model air?

Your answer will help judge what the problem is. If the problem is in fact that the paints have settled(which usually isn't the case) then there are a couple things you can do. first always store the paint on their sides. second, take the tip off of the bottle and place a ball bearing (doesn't have to be ball bearing but it cant be something that will corrode in the paint) in paint and replace cap. These things will help break up the pigment in the bottle.

Please answer the first three questions though so we can narrow down the problem

i38steelrain wrote:
1. What level of painter would you consider yourself? 1-10 1-being new and 10 being golden daemon level
2. do you use an airbrush?
3. what color do you prime with and do you always use the same color?
4. Is it vallejo game color or vallejo model air?

1. Somewhere between 2 and 3, I think. I got the basics down and am fairly happy about the results I am getting considering my short time in the hobby, but also recognize that I have a lot left to learn.
2. No.
3. I prime my High Elves black, but will soon pick up a white primer for my Dust Tactics minis.
4. Vallejo Game Color. I just saw that they do in fact have thicker paints available, but I still thought their range was rather limited. No metallics, for example, from what I can tell.

I disagree with Todosi. Most Vallejo paints are much thicker than most GW paints. All Vallejo paints must be thinner, while GW layer paints can be painted straight to model if you're lazy and it's an easy color (like blue) or a layer metallic.

Re: the original question -- Vallejo paints settle much, much more than Citadel paints, and require that you shake them like crazy if they are new or have been sitting on the shelf. For all the complaining about citadel pots, they are very easy to inspect. Eyedropper bottles require you to take the dropper out, and use a long, thin rod to test, or, you dike them longer then you think you need, or you juryrig a shaker contraption.

Finally, Mephiston Red is much, much better than anything Vallejo makes in red, and GW's red/orange range is really the best of all the brands when it comes down to coverage.

Using Vallejo, properly thinner so that the results are totally brushstroke free, takes like 8 coats to get opaque red over black primer. I think, compared to Citadel, P3, and Army Painter, Vallejo's red is the worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Announcement wrote:

i38steelrain wrote:
1. What level of painter would you consider yourself? 1-10 1-being new and 10 being golden daemon level
2. do you use an airbrush?
3. what color do you prime with and do you always use the same color?
4. Is it vallejo game color or vallejo model air?

1. Somewhere between 2 and 3, I think. I got the basics down and am fairly happy about the results I am getting considering my short time in the hobby, but also recognize that I have a lot left to learn.
2. No.
3. I prime my High Elves black, but will soon pick up a white primer for my Dust Tactics minis.
4. Vallejo Game Color. I just saw that they do in fact have thicker paints available, but I still thought their range was rather limited. No metallics, for example, from what I can tell.

I find Vallejo game thick totally useless, except *maybe* for drybrush. There is nothing really nice about them, and shaking them up is such a pain. I have four of them, and they essentially sit unused.

Game color is good, but you will need to supplement with Model color, especially for the darker shades (like a dark red, or dark grey).

answers will correspond to question.
1.If you are using VGC or VMA (game color or model air) Then we can safely assume that you are wanting to up your game and get better at painting. the further you get into the painting the more you are going to realize that you appreciate layers more and more. Many techniques call for multiple layers for example (NMM, shading, OSL. etc etc)
2, If you were using an airbrush believe me that you would appreciate the thinner paint. vallejo of any kind is superior for airbrushes and if you really want your models to look good i suggest looking into an airbrush.
3. priming and basecoating, and your application of, are extremely important. I would suggest not basing with black unless using an airbrush. if you do i would suggest that you pick up a can of grey or white primer and spray downwards onto the top of the model after uve based black. This will create shadow instantly and it will help with coverage.
4.As for valejo as a whole I would not suggest it for you yet. I don't use it for anything except metalics myself. I personally think that GW paint is more versatile going from hand painting to airbrush and back, but everyone differs. If Gw would just wake up and put paint in dropper bottle then i would hardly ever use vallejo.

Also, As someone else said already. yellow and red are notoriously hard to cover with, not to mention that if your wanting ur models to look much better then yellow or red would never be the first color anyhow. You would use brownish colors for yellow and brown or green, or a mix of the two, for bases to red.

hope this helps

Talys wrote:

Using Vallejo, properly thinner so that the results are totally brushstroke free, takes like 8 coats to get opaque red over black primer. I think, compared to Citadel, P3, and Army Painter, Vallejo's red is the worst.

So if not Vallejo, which brand should I go for? Are P3 and Army Painter about the same level of quality? I don't like Citadel's paints because I think they dry up too quickly (even though I clean the lids of the pots often) and because they're so incredibly expensive.

i38steelrain wrote:

Also, As someone else said already. yellow and red are notoriously hard to cover with, not to mention that if your wanting ur models to look much better then yellow or red would never be the first color anyhow. You would use brownish colors for yellow and brown or green, or a mix of the two, for bases to red.
hope this helps

So you would base with brown, then another base layer of red/yellow before applying highlights? Interesting.

Also, thanks for all your help, guys! I guess for now I'm just looking for paints that cover as well as GW paints but that do not carry the GW price tag. If GW is the only brand carrying a certain color I don't mind picking it up, but generally speaking I was hoping that I could get most of my paints elsewhere.

Well if youre not gonna go with gw i guess id suggest p3, but theyre thick like gw too so they gum up like youre trying to avoid. What id really though if you have a problem with them drying up is to put some flowaid or slow dri in them. liquitex makes both of them. if ou have a hobby lobby near you theyll be 40% off with their coupon they always have.. or you could do what i sometimes do. when you have a new bottle of gw paint transfer it to a dropper bottle.

i38steelrain wrote:
Well if youre not gonna go with gw i guess id suggest p3, but theyre thick like gw too so they gum up like youre trying to avoid. What id really though if you have a problem with them drying up is to put some flowaid or slow dri in them. liquitex makes both of them. if ou have a hobby lobby near you theyll be 40% off with their coupon they always have.. or you could do what i sometimes do. when you have a new bottle of gw paint transfer it to a dropper bottle.

That's a good idea, I'm assuming I can get empty dropper bottles at a hobby store. Are P3 paints in dropper bottles?

15ml droppers from ebay/china are usually fine. Plastic beads or ballbearings or something are handy for agitators.

p3 comes in pots like gw. yes you can get the droppers at hobby lobby too

Announcement wrote:

i38steelrain wrote:
Well if youre not gonna go with gw i guess id suggest p3, but theyre thick like gw too so they gum up like youre trying to avoid. What id really though if you have a problem with them drying up is to put some flowaid or slow dri in them. liquitex makes both of them. if ou have a hobby lobby near you theyll be 40% off with their coupon they always have.. or you could do what i sometimes do. when you have a new bottle of gw paint transfer it to a dropper bottle.

That's a good idea, I'm assuming I can get empty dropper bottles at a hobby store. Are P3 paints in dropper bottles?

P3 paints are in pots that are identical to GW pots from the 80's. Keep in mind that the P3 colors are more different from GW (and there are more gaps in the color range) than Game/Model Color. P3 paints are a real pleasure to use.

By the way, I'd suggest not going out and buying 30 paints in another line. Buy a couple, play with them, and see if you like the way they behave. Every brand of paint is different, and I would worry more about how you like using them more than the bottling, as you can put pots in bottles, and bottles in pots, if that turns into a deal breaker

I will second Liquitex Flo-Aid. A fantastic product.

Talys wrote:
By the way, I'd suggest not going out and buying 30 paints in another line. Buy a couple, play with them, and see if you like the way they behave. Every brand of paint is different, and I would worry more about how you like using them more than the bottling, as you can put pots in bottles, and bottles in pots, if that turns into a deal breaker

Vallejo is way thick. I always pull the top off and add some water before using. P3 paints are right in the middle for me.

Give reaper master series a shot. For metallics try vallejo model air.

I recommend making an exception and sticking to GW Mephiston Red, if only just for basecoating. It goes on in one or two layers, and it really is just that much better!

Barring that, I havent used Reaper's reds, but I like their other stuff. However, they are also very thin. Takes some getting used to after GW.

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I recommend making an exception and sticking to GW Mephiston Red, if only just for basecoating. It goes on in one or two layers, and it really is just that much better!

Barring that, I havent used Reaper's reds, but I like their other stuff. However, they are also very thin. Takes some getting used to after GW.

They're nothing to write home about. Nor is Army Painter, although AP's Pure Red and Dragon Red primers are quite acceptable, and a good way to avoid having to paint red if you're using any pigment other than Games Workshop.

Really, nobody's reds are as nice as the GW system -- Mephiston and Khorne are by far the best basecoat paints; and there are so many bright varieties -- Evil Sunz Scarlet, Wadzaka Red, and Wild Ryder Red, plus the Fire Dragon Bright and Lugganth Oranage as ideal highlights and corner highlights. Squig Orange and Troll Slayer Orange are good alternatives for the highlights too. None of the other paint ranges have that type of bright selection.

If anything, what GW lacks in the reds is dark reds, ask Khorne is not that dark. Burgundy Red in the VMC line is slightly (but not a lot) darker.

Talys wrote:
I find Vallejo game thick totally useless, except *maybe* for drybrush. There is nothing really nice about them, and shaking them up is such a pain. I have four of them, and they essentially sit unused.

If you're talking about the 'Extra Opaque' in the Came Color line, then they should have the exact same formulation as the Model Color line (Acrylicos Vallejo FAQ, Question 4.2):

4.2. Are the new extra opaque colors in Game Color similar to Model Color?

Yes, for these 16 Extra Opaque colors, the Model Color formula was used, since the viscosity of this formula supplies the opacity needed for a quick, one- coat base or foundation application.

 Ghaz wrote:

Talys wrote:
I find Vallejo game thick totally useless, except *maybe* for drybrush. There is nothing really nice about them, and shaking them up is such a pain. I have four of them, and they essentially sit unused.

If you're talking about the 'Extra Opaque' in the Came Color line, then they should have the exact same formulation as the Model Color line (Acrylicos Vallejo FAQ, Question 4.2):

4.2. Are the new extra opaque colors in Game Color similar to Model Color?

Yes, for these 16 Extra Opaque colors, the Model Color formula was used, since the viscosity of this formula supplies the opacity needed for a quick, one- coat base or foundation application.

Huh. Learn something new every day! Perhaps they are just extra-old on the shelf then. Since Vallejo paints or bottles are not dated, I can't tell (this is one thing I really do like about GW paints. I wont buy it if it's older than 2013). I can only say that my extra *opaque* paints are awful -- all 4 are way thicker than the viscosity of model color for me.

By the way, the "single coat" stuff from every company is liez. On almost any color, if you try to get opacity in one coat, it will look horrible. Gw says the same thing about their base paints, and also that their layer paints can go straight from the pot. Liez!!!

Yep. Also note question 4.4 from the FAQ:

4.4. Are the colors in Game Color the same as in Model Color, only more liquid?

No, we produced a selection of colors designed for Fantasy Figures, and although the basic colors (red, blue, etc.) may be alike, the major part of the range will not have any match in Model Color, always excepting the 16 colors in the Extra Opaque series, which have exact equivalents in the Model Color range.

They're not even unique colors, just relabeled Model Colors (you can find the equivalents in the Game Color Pamphlet).

As a side note, and I admit I haven't read all the posts, there are also Vallejo Game Air colours now, which are supposedly thinner than the brush version.
That said, your best friends are bearing balls.
Just drop a small (6mm-ish) steel sphere in each bottle (or pot, for all that matters) and your paint shaking becomes way easier.
Also, experiment with brands to find what you like... vgc is more pigmented, vmc are quite matte, andrea colour makes a very, very, very nice matte black, gw's mephiston red, averland sunset and ceramite white are very good to base "difficult colours" (red, yellow and white, respectively),
DecoArt 'Americana' line is cheap and good for "bulky" (read, terrain) painting (with nice matt finishes and quite good "effects" like a paintable cracle finish)

As a note, make sure you use something nonreactive as an agitator in your paints. I've heard of people using cheap bbs as agitators and losing the pot of paint as the bbs rusted and changed the color of the paint.

 Ghaz wrote:

If you're talking about the 'Extra Opaque' in the Came Color line, then they should have the exact same formulation as the Model Color line

So the model color line is thicker? That sounds good to me, don't know why I'd use the thinner paint. You can always thin it down, so what would the advantage be of buying thinner paint?

Given that the one piece of advice I keep seeing given to painters is "thin your paint" and "it's better to use multiple thin layers rather than one thick layer of paint", I'd say the reason to buy thinner paints is obvious. I use VGC paints exclusively and I will say that some of their colors are horrendous when it comes to thickening up/clogging if you don't use them that often, especially any of the colors on the warm end of the spectrum, i.e. reds, oranges, yellows, etc.

As far as adding an agitator to the bottle, I use hematite beads. Non-reactive as they are a stone as opposed to any metal, and inexpensive (8.00 for a hundred beads at Michaels).

Announcement wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

If you're talking about the 'Extra Opaque' in the Came Color line, then they should have the exact same formulation as the Model Color line

So the model color line is thicker? That sounds good to me, don't know why I'd use the thinner paint. You can always thin it down, so what would the advantage be of buying thinner paint?

Read the Vallejo FAQ and you'll note that there's other differences between the Model Color and Game Color lines other than paint consistency.

Peredyne wrote:
Given that the one piece of advice I keep seeing given to painters is "thin your paint" and "it's better to use multiple thin layers rather than one thick layer of paint", I'd say the reason to buy thinner paints is obvious.

Yeah but thicker paints need more thinning, and therefore VMC will last you longer.
In either case I was just perplexed at how incredibly thin their yellow, red, and orange is. It would take at least ten layers of paint to even get them anywhere near opaque even without any thinning, which seems excessive.