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Hey guys, google isnt being too helpful so I thought i'd ask here. Im after a modern ish game (post WW2) and also a range of models I can use as well.

The only one I found was force on force. Is that recommended or are there other games out there?

A few things... I love helicopters. I also love smaller scales. But it must also have infantry (so cant be one of those games that ignores infantry and focuses on vehicle warfare).

If you could suggest some awesome models that would be cool too.

Cheers for the help.

Some friends and I currently play Skirmish Sangin, it has a really nice feel to it and unlike Force on Force which are really good rules in there own right Skirmish Sangin gives us the ability to build forces with a points list.

Skirmish Sangin can be found over at http://www.radiodishdash.co.uk/

We also use 20mm minatures mainly because of the wealth of plastic kits available, though all my infantry come from http://www.elhiemfigures.com/ and they are just beautiful models. Also have several vehicles from http://sandsmodelsshop.com/ which are good for the most up to date kit.

So my recommendation would be Skirmish Sangin, but you won't go to far wrong with Force on Force.

Of course if you want the full blown modern experience then go for 'A Fistful of TOWs 3', however those rules really suit much larger scales and we play in 10mm to accommodate that.

Somewhere in between though is Flames of War, you have Vietnam and Arab Isreali settings and i think a cold war fan made variant exists as well.

Also you might get more answers posting this across in the historical games section.

I play flames of war for WW2, but I want something more than that for this one...

I like the idea of points lists, simply because my group isnt very easy to get into these sorts of games. Having points means they have a goal and and get started faster. Which is a huge bonus.

I may get both the rule sets (f on f and sangin) with some models and it can work fine?

How well are helicopters represented in these games?

I don't know exactly, but I don't think FoF is going to use Copters as much more than an objective/insertion point, terrain, or an off-board artillery mechanic.

The problem is that 28mm gaming doesn't give you enough space to really make use of copters. The area represented by the playing field is just too small. The only games where you see VTOL's hanging around the board in 28mm tend to be sci-fantasy games like 40k which have no problem rediculously cramming a company of troops, armor and air support onto a battlefield the size of a soccer pitch.

I don't know all the games, but something in 15mm would probably have more in-game use of helicopter models.

Peter Pig offers a range of figs and a game or two that will put men, tanks, PBR's, copters and men on the same battlefield in 15mm.
http://www.peterpig.co.uk/range1.htm

There are alot of rulesets aimed at 15mm that would probably do what you want to. Just get rid if the idea that the figs and rules have to come from the same company. Most historical games don't operate that way and you'll find excellent suppliers of figs, vehicles and rules that can be mixed and matched to your heart's content.

Yea hence why I hoped for much smaller scale games BUT still have infantry. A long time back I saw some tiny tiny scale games that had everything except infantry. Which was disappointing. But it looked very nice.

The problem im having is finding a game set to start buying minis for, I like to have some aim. I just buy whatever minis fit. For example, I dont want to buy models, but then have a game set that turns out awesome but means I need to buy more models due to composition of forces or something etc.

Once I settle on rules I will buy the models.

But yea I was hoping for smaller scales, I think the game I saw when I was young was 3-5mm or something ridiculous.

In Skirmish Sangin helicopters and close air support is abstract off-the-board stuff since most of the action takes place in a small area and with realistic weapon ranges (ie pistols have got something like a 30 or 40" range).

There are rules for technicals (modified civilian vehicles) and smaller AFVs that aren't difficult to integrate into a normal game. There are even rules for MBTs but they would hose most forces just by themselves and I doubt many people ever put one on the table.

Hmmm.

Any idea what scale would be needed for a skirmish game that can contain combined arms approach to modern warfare?

I mean, range shouldnt be an issue since the board will be broken up with terrain as one would expect.

Hmmm, maybe I need to compromise with my wants and see what I can do.

For combined arms I wouldnt want to go any larger than 15mm, and even then I'm of the opinion thats pushing it since even WW2 prop planes are going to be going so fast they'd be over a standard 6 by 4 table in under a turn.

10mm or 6mm seem to be the standard in combined arms moderns but at that scale calling it skirmish is once again pushing it. As you want infantry then 6mm might be too small, as although you can get infantry they tend to be of the mulitiple dudes to stand type. (for obvious reasons).

I think this is going to be one of those cases where as you have said you may have to compromise.

http://www.magistermilitum.com/ do all sorts of scales of moderns, might be worth a look and see if there is anything there that catches your eye. I've got some of their 1:285 (roughly 6mm) tanks and planes and they are nice.

Oh and one bit of advice. If you do go with 6 or 10mm then I'd advise you to either get all your minis from the same source or do some serious comparison checks. A size difference of 2mm between the maker of one 28mm Sherman tank and the maker of another 28mm Sherman tank and they can look ok side by side, at 6mm they can look ridiculous.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hmmm.

Any idea what scale would be needed for a skirmish game that can contain combined arms approach to modern warfare?

I mean, range shouldnt be an issue since the board will be broken up with terrain as one would expect.

Hmmm, maybe I need to compromise with my wants and see what I can do.

When you talk combined arms skirmish, range IS an issue. An Apache engages from several hundred to several thousand meters away. Your typical board, even when using 15mm figures (smallest I would go for skirmish) is a fraction of that distance.

Having said that, games like Force on Force (I am pretty familiar with this one) allow combined arms (vehicles and infantry) and use air assets as well, though they may spend most of their time off board (like your artillery will). The reality is, assets like attack helicopters don't generally get allocated to squads and platoons (though in recent wars, rich western armies like that of the US will push air/other enablers to troops in contact. Having said that, it takes specially trained guys with special comms gear to direct close air support.

If you really want to get a big combined arms feel, perhaps you are not looking for a skirmish game. Perhaps something like Modern Spearhead or Cold War Commander would be better.

As for figure ranges, I used 15mm and 1:600 for moderns. 1:600 stuff was for big battles (I used platoon bases and could field brigade sized forces with enablers like arty and air). My 15mm stuff was a mix of Peter Pig (some infantry and technicals), QRF (some vehicles and copters), Khurasan (infantry and vehicles), Rebel Minis (infantry), and a few others.

Jake

The Captain makes a very good note about copters.
Even in a 15mm game, you're mostly going to deal with transport copters. They're the only sort of air vehicle that has any reason to hang round at low altitudes and move slow enough to be over the board for more than half a turn.

If you're nuts for choppers and want to go 15mm, Viet Nam is probably the best option for you since you're dealing with so many chopper-based scenarios, though various modern spec-ops scenarios would work as well.

Yea oh well. Worth a shot to search though.

Ill look through some non skirmish games and see what I can find (going through your suggestions).

http://www.magistermilitum.com/ has some really nice models though.

Thanks heaps guys.

Another skirmish game is Flying Lead (Ganesha games).

1:1200 scale actually looks very cool.

I might look more into that scale game.

No im gonna go with the 6mm as mentioned above.

Consider the 1:600 stuff for moderns:

http://s247.photobucket.com/user/CptJake_Minis/library/1_600











The detail is amazing, the prices are great, and I honestly think it gives the Big Unit Combined Arms look.

Alright ill bring it up with mates and see if we go 6mm or smaller.

Hey a tip for your helicopters, get some thin clear plastic and cut a circle. Put that on top to make it look like spinning rotor blades.

They come with rotor disks. I had not put them on when the pictures were taken.