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My tactical squads keep coming up short on the table top, as a result I find my self spending fewer and fewer point on them. This has been a long term trend for me, over the last few editions. I was writing a list the other day and I found my self wanting to include two 10 man squads in rhino's, no upgrades, 175 points a pop.

Anyone else run 175 point, 10 man squads? If so, how have they preformed for you?

It looks like you are treating them as a tax if you don't plan to allow them to even try to perform a certain role. If so, you might as well use scouts, or 5 man tac squads as those are cheaper.

Alternatively, you could make 5 man tac squads and give them a missile launcher/lascannon etc and use them as bonus shots against anything they happen to have line of sight to.

On the contrary I'm trying not to treat them as a tax. I'm not fielding 20 tac marines because I have to, I'm including them because I want them in my list. I just want them to be efficient. 350 point for 20 power armored bodies seem like a bargain on paper, but if they turn out to be useless the fact that their cheap is meaningless.

So anyone use tac squads with no upgrades?

The whole point of a tac squad is they are able to perform multiple roles on the battlefield, stripping them of their options just seems a waste and relegates them to just being able to shoot at infantry.

Assuming you're taking a rhino I'd always take a couple of melta weapons and melta bombs so now they can threaten all vehicles as well of infantry.

In what way are they coming up short? Perhaps what we need to see how you're using them before selecting wargear?

Who would use naked Tac squads? anyone who has used naked guard platoons.

Nope. Bolter fire, while decent (although some will say otherwise), doesn't really get the job done. Tac marines are only good at the job you give them tools for, and 'meh' at everything else (but not bad). Not giving them a special/heavy means the squad is just an all around 'ok' squad-it'll hold some ground, it'll do a bit of damage, but it's not really a specific threat, more of an all around nuisance to everything. If you're running them as IF, then bolter drill will probably make them a bit tastier, as at least bolter fire will improve. I think most people see the extra ~10% points cost as worth it for some bite that makes the squad more survivable in a specific situation-better to be prepared for something, even if it might be the wrong thing, because you don't lose out on too much by taking an upgrade.

If you're set on trying it out, then I would run them in combat squads and keep the squads somewhat spread out, running them within about 12 inches of one another-two squads in front, two in back like the corners of a square, or in a curved arc which pushes up the field. That way you have overlapping fields of fire between the squads for anything that decides to come and play (with rapid fire potentially adding to the damage pool), and they're close enough to conceivably support one another in CC-you should be able to move, run and charge 12 inches reasonably reliably, and if the dice are good to you you could even skip the run and try a few pistol shots.

Not a terrible tactic to try on tac squads in general, even if they have specials...not sure why I've only just thought of it. Hmmmm.

You would need to plan the rest of your list just right to make it work-it will probably work best with a heavy hitter to pull some focus off the tac squads (dready, tank, flier...there are a lot of options) because they aren't kitted out to deal with heavy hitters themselves. And you'll need some serious anti-tank in the rest of your list.

Honestly I think playing them naked is very smart. Keep them as cheap as possible in a rhino and use them for all they are good for. Fire 20 bolters into something after jumping out of the rhino and divert firepower from something more important. Now...if they are dumb enough to let 10 tactical marines charge them...unless they are some kind of elite close combat unit - the marines have done their job and will likely win that combat without many loses at all - without any special upgrades. Im of the opinion that 5 man with laz or naked in a rhino is probably thier best use. Throw on plasma guns and combi plasmas after you have all the other units you are interested in because I promise you they do the job better.

If you run them naked, DO NOT combat squad them. A 10 man tactical is actually pretty dang good in CC if you can get them there.

carldooley wrote:Who would use naked Tac squads? anyone who has used naked guard platoons.

lol, thats me... I use naked guard platoons (not all the time but enough)

Edit* I should qualify this, I still take vox casters on my naked sqauds (5 points per squad to make orders work more often is well worth it)

Xenomancers wrote:Honestly I think playing them naked is very smart. Keep them as cheap as possible in a rhino and use them for all they are good for. Fire 20 bolters into something after jumping out of the rhino and divert firepower from something more important. Now...if they are dumb enough to let 10 tactical marines charge them...unless they are some kind of elite close combat unit - the marines have done their job and will likely win that combat without many loses at all - without any special upgrades. Im of the opinion that 5 man with laz or naked in a rhino is probably thier best use. Throw on plasma guns and combi plasmas after you have all the other units you are interested in because I promise you they do the job better.

If you run them naked, DO NOT combat squad them. A 10 man tactical is actually pretty dang good in CC if you can get them there.

I agree with this. IMO using naked tac squads makes you use them as intended and in the way they are best used. I feel people often expect their kitted out tac squads to accomplish too much.

Iv used them a few times. Ran them up behind los blocking stuff. shot weaker units and charged av10 rear armor things.

Thends to do ok but nothing toooo spectacular.

Yeah should only do that if your playing imperial fist with there chapter tactics... besides that you should give em something they have great potential.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Yeah should only do that if your playing imperial fist with there chapter tactics... besides that you should give em something they have great potential.

Guess who runs imperial fist tactics (actually sentinels of awesome)

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Yeah should only do that if your playing imperial fist with there chapter tactics... besides that you should give em something they have great potential.

Ultra marines have awesome chapter tactics for tactical squads too, and DA have dakka banner for 40 shots ranged 24 tacticals. Pretty good stuff. Only problem is you need a target - there might not be one.

Its cool against other TAC lists I guess, but I'd get a Sargent upgrade 'cause I do that wherever I can in any army. (Luckily IG get it free)

...No? I'd rather have five guys with a heavy weapon than ten guys with no upgrade guns, anti-infantry volume isn't usually a hole I need to plug.

Good spread of opinions here. I've always been a fan of running one or two,10 man squads, in a rhino or pod. Combat squads, five dudes with a heavy weapon, and razorback squads are a different animal that I do field time to time. I like the 'meat' a two ten man squads add to a list. However I got to the point were I was about to give them a flamer and combi-flamer and asked myself is those 30 points could be spent better else where.

What chapter is this for? BA tacs are different than C:SM tacs.

I think that if you're taking a 175 pt squad, why not spend at least 10-15 pt for a melta, melta bomb. For a marginal price increase you increase their versatility tremendously.
Otherwise it's like taking 30 boyz without a pk nob.

Meltabombs are great, but I still like plasma on tac squads a lot over melta. Specifically for BA, I"m gonna try five men with heavy flamer, in a TL HF razorback.

I've been considering this for Wolves. I spend a lot of points on weapons that honestly would be quite a bit more 2-or-3-attack-having Grey Hunters on the board. The weapons always seem lackluster and I think in general GW overestimates their potency. The idea that one special or heavy is going to make a lick of difference unless it's an ideal target is pretty subjective. I feel like it often costs these units big during gameplay because you put them into sticky spots only one or two guys are really going to handle well and the rest are just their meat shield. OR you put them in a spot that the bolters rock but the extra weapons are wasted.

I am curious to hear how Wolves players who run this way end up. Our weapons got expensive but our models got cheaper so I imagine, over the course of a large force, this is a significant chunk of points given back.

 Fenris Frost wrote:
I've been considering this for Wolves. I spend a lot of points on weapons that honestly would be quite a bit more 2-or-3-attack-having Grey Hunters on the board. The weapons always seem lackluster and I think in general GW overestimates their potency. The idea that one special or heavy is going to make a lick of difference unless it's an ideal target is pretty subjective. I feel like it often costs these units big during gameplay because you put them into sticky spots only one or two guys are really going to handle well and the rest are just their meat shield. OR you put them in a spot that the bolters rock but the extra weapons are wasted.

I am curious to hear how Wolves players who run this way end up. Our weapons got expensive but our models got cheaper so I imagine, over the course of a large force, this is a significant chunk of points given back.

I have not done it with Grey Hunter, but with Power Armored Wolf Guard, both with Bolt Pistol/CCW and Bolt Pistol/Bolt Gun with some decent results.

That's why I like plasma for tacs. Usually plasma targets are something that bolters have a hope against, even if a faint hope. Most melta targets are immune to bolters. Flamers require my worst-troop-in-the-game-for-their-points-in-hand-to-hand tacticals to get close.

I would have thought barebones tacticals were very points efficient, especially in rhinos.

My impression of marines is that they really lack the numbers to lay down a thick carpet of fire with their weapons, and this problem is only compounded if you start giving them weapons that limit their mobility and waste what limited bolter concentration they might have had.

Concentrating bolters is not worthwhile. Tacticals aren't points efficient because naked tacticals don't DO anything.

^ what he said.
Why would you EVER concentrate on Bolters? That 15 points for a Plasma Gun is giving more killing power than another marine whole being able to actually handle multiple targets...

Bare bones is good but why not throw a plasma gun in there?

I run my as such and am seldom disappointed, mind you I never expect much. Just hold down an objective and maybe blast a few weaker units.

I usually CS them if I have an HQ who needs meat shields. Run the plas gunner with the other four and try to utilize.

Don't feel bad not giving them toys, after all, in the fluff they seldom get anything more than a Bolter and a fresh purity seal...

Martel732 wrote:
Meltabombs are great, but I still like plasma on tac squads a lot over melta. Specifically for BA, I"m gonna try five men with heavy flamer, in a TL HF razorback.

I was just giving an example of how you can significantly increase the effectiveness/versatility of the squad having payed just~6-7% of their cost. Plasma is a bit more expensive but is a great weapon in a rhino squad. A bit less versatile than a melta, however, cause you do want to fire+charge from time to time with the guyz. Especially against vehicles. But the larger range of a plasma + possibility to get a second shot is nice too. 3+ armor helps against gets hot a lot. It's more about what your list needs. Sometimes it's worthwile to give them a flamer and have your own mini-immolation suqad to get launched on the flank and eventually get rid of some enemy infantry hiding in cover. If you have no other flamers in your list - why not?

To be honest, if you want them 'naked in rhinos' why not go for a 5-strong squad?

Well Reading I had the thought of this.
IC with Combi-Plasma
Sargent with Combi-Plasma
1x Marine with Plasma Gun
8x Bolter Marines
All in a Rhino

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well Reading I had the thought of this.
IC with Combi-Plasma
Sargent with Combi-Plasma
1x Marine with Plasma Gun
8x Bolter Marines
All in a Rhino

That still sucks pretty hard, besides... rhinos only hold ten.

Same idea but better.

Sarge Combi-Plas
4 Tacticals and a Plasma gun
Drop pod

...and we're already looking at a more mobile and threatening force.

I find five guys in a pod with a special and a combi to be rather unreliable, especially when equip with melta, which my list needs more than plasma.

In general I find that one special and a combi to be rather lack luster, and five marines are way to easy kill in most situations.

I've always used 10 man squads for staying power. Having some of the squad left late game to hold an objective.