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Grand Master(warlord)
-Cuirass of Sacrifice
-master crafted Psycannon
-halberd
-melta bombs

Librarian
-lvl 3
-Stormbolter
-melta bombs
-Domina Liber Daemonica

Librarian
-lvl 3
-Fury of Deimos
-melta bombs


10 terminators
-2 psycannons
-5 halberds
-2 pairs of falchions
-2 hammers
-melta bombs

10 terminators
-2 psycannons
-5 halberds
-2 hammers
-melta bombs

Dreadknight
-sword
-heavy psilincer
-heavy psycannon

Dreadknight
-sword
-heavy psilincer
-heavy psycannon


1845/1850 pts

2 detachments, Nemesis Strike force

Idea behind the list is that the Liber Daemonica librarian and the Grand master roll on Sanctic and the other librarian rolls on Divination, hopefully getting me GoI, VoD, Sanctuary, and Forewarning so I can gate around and hand out 3+ invulns to my squads and my Dreadknights.

Dreadknights have Psilincers instead of Incinerators so I have some ranged ID threat if needed. And I had points to spend.

How do you deal with high AV targets? Pure GK only has one real answer.... Storm Raven. (take 2)

Also you have no range... your enemies will keep distance and murder you.

I would drop any weapon adds until you get to the end of your point list. Psy cannons yes. Hammers Yes.

If you are spending that much on a grand master... why not go Draigo? OR. Eliminate that slot entirely.

Drop the liber daemonica - Not worth the points. Also go for invisibility. It wins you EVERYTHING.

Also you NEED to drop first turn Nemesis Strike Force.
Why not Imp Bunker w comm Relay (75 points) and an inquisitor w/ 3 servo skulls (reduces your scatter) you can also add melta / heavy bolter servitors for 10 points each. Sit them in the bunker.

1) Between Dreadknights, Daemon Hammers, every unit having 2-3 Melta bombs, and VoD I am not worried about vehicles.

2) I don't need range between Deep Striking, Gate of Infinity, and Shunting.

3) Well I don't own Draigo for one, and that also pigeon holes my psychic power options. Guaranteed Gate is nice, but his other powers are meh.

4) The Domina Liber Damonica is totally worth its points. Having 4 Sanctic powers is amazing.

5) It would be nice to get a Comms Relay in, but the true cost of it is pretty high since it mandates taking a unit to sit on it.

Personally, I would probably drop one Librarian and a few upgrades to get another 5 Terminators with a Hammer and Psycannon. Or, a Storm Raven. You don't have the shots to kill flyers. Not that Ravens are particularly good, but GKs don't get Fire Raptors. Come up against Tyranids and the flying Tyrants will just drown you in shots. Same with Necrons.

I'm also a fan of rolling Telepathy for Psychic Shriek, but I haven't used Daemonology much so I can't really compare.

I'd still ditch the Psilencers. Even the heavy ones are crap. It's great and all that they have force, but they just can't put wounds on anything that matters. Your odds of wounding a Riptide or flying Tyrant are practically zero, you can't even hurt Wraithknights, etc. The Incinerator is better against infantry, might as well take advantage of that and save a few points.

You obviously need to cut costs for that comms relay. Which you can do.

1. Why are you bringing two NSF detachments? Only for your extra Grand master? You are better off taking one detachment and getting Draigo. You say you don't like his powers, but they are strictly better then the Grand Master's powers since he gets all those powers plus gate.

2. You don't need storm bolters or the fury of deimos on your libbys, keep them cheap, they only have two wounds. Hell you don't even need the melta bombs. Most of your army will have access to hammerhand and can easily kill most vehicles in close combat. You say this is a competitive list, in that case you don't need to worry about AV 14 since it is bad in competitive environments. (top 10 lists adepticon, and LVO)

3. Get rid of the falchions on the terminators, you don't need the extra attack.

4. Dreadknights are how you kill big nasty things. Keep them cheap and simple. Don't take the psilencer at all. As a matter of fact don't take any weapon but the incinerator on the dreadknights. If you really want to have the heavy psycannon fine, but remember the heavy psycannon want's to get shot at big nasty things that the heavy psilencer has no chance of hurting. That's bad weapon synergy and a waste of 40 points.

5. The great sword is amazing, and remember your psychic powers on that Daemonica libby are insane. Vortex of doom is great for killing anything, cleansing flame kills hordes, light vehicles, and light armor flyers, sanctuary combined with draigo (hello 2++) and forewarning is amazing. Extra hammerhand can never go amiss, and an extra gate user isn't bad. The only bad non-primaris power is number 4.

I think the comms relay could help in your list if you were willing to combat squad a unit of terminators to start on the board with it. Your list isn't going to get first blood on your alpha strike anyways, so you might as well give them a sacrificial unit that they have to move out of position to kill. I also like the inquisitor idea.

if you refuse to follow any of my advice for whatever reason and are just going to argue all of the points I made don't bother posting at all. You posted this list because you know it isn't perfect and want to improve it. Arguing like you did in the above post is purely defensive and doesn't get you anywhere.

P.S. you say you have shunting for gap closing but you didn't indicate that you paid for the personal teleporter on your dreadknights.

Alright, I'll see if I can slim down enough to work in a Comms relay, but the Grandmaster is staying because I really want to see how having 3 high level psykers plays out on the table. Its basically a big experiment.


Ok, 1847 pts total

Grandmaster
-Halberd
-MC Psycannon
-Cuirass of Sacrifice
-Melta Bombs

Librarian
-lvl3
-Stormbolter
-Domina Liber Daemonica
-Melta bombs

Librarian
-Fury of Deimos
-Melta Bombs

10 Terminators
-2 Psycannons
-2 Hammers
-5 Halberds
-Melta Bombs

10 Terminators
-2 Psycannons
-2 Hammers
-5 Halberds
-Melta Bombs

Dreadknight
-Teleporter
-Greatsword
-Heavy Psycannon

Dreadknight
-Teleporter
-Greatsword
-Heavy Psycannon

ADL with Comms Relay

I've ran the GM in that configuration and basically every other viable one bar the relic bolter. I've personally found the liber daemonica to be key on a GM otherwise his powers are too random. However I usually roll sanctic with a GM. Also after running every weapon option I've found falchions to be my favorite by far, although the halberd would be next in line. The only real down side of the falchion is if he gets seperated and hasn't rolled up HH which has screwed me. Once.

The cuirass I would suggest giving to a libby. Much better value here since the libbys are usually better off rolling on telepathy/divination meaning they are often slanging the bigger spells like invis/prescience. With only 2 wounds they really welcome a chance to mitigate perils damage.

Meltabombs everywhere just feels over tooled to me. I used to run that way but after evaluating them I never really saw a good return on the investment. They are usually pretty irrelevant for GK, at least IME.. but ymmv. Just something to keep an eye on.

Lastly I highly recommend the bunker as mentioned above. Its my go to choice for GKs and I use it extensively, although if running allies then a damocles cmd rhino is also a serious contender.

Anyway in a nutshell the bunker is a scoring unit in your army, can operate its own comms so doesn't need a unit dedicated to babysit and even gains cover from the comms relay of 5+. So for 5 pts more you can plunk this thing on an objective behind the comms, set, forget, profit. If your opponent looks like they can destroy av14 in cover before your turn 1 then by all means put a NDK there too as insurance.

The only reason to take an ADL in GK is literally you don't have a bunker model.

dominuschao wrote:

Anyway in a nutshell the bunker is a scoring unit in your army, can operate its own comms so doesn't need a unit dedicated to babysit and even gains cover from the comms relay of 5+.

Is this true? I thought the comms relay required a friendly model to operate and buildings didn't count.

Apparently this is not that well known which is probably why I still see lists posted here that have ADLs..

Here we go:

pg references (my brief summary in parenth italics following each section):

Comms Relay:
-BRB pg 109, listed as battlefield debris. "unless otherwise stated, a model in cover behind difficult terrain has a 5+ cover save."

-Battlefield Debris- "battlefield debris is difficult terrain."

Comms Relay- "any player with an unengaged model within 2" of a comms relay can re-roll reserve rolls."


Fortifications:
-BRB pg 130 fortifications; "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

-BRB pg 132 scenery upgrades; "some pieces of scenery can be purchased as upgrades for a fortification. For example, a comms relay can be purchased as an upgrade for an imperial bastion. When this is the case, the upgrade can either be placed on top of the building's battlements (if it is a building with battlements), or set up as a separate model within 6" of the model taking the option."

(so the bunker deploys as a unit in your army at the same time, the comms placed within 2". The comms is terrain and as such cannot be destroyed. It is an unengaged model thus activates the comms for whoever controls it.)


Objectives:
-BRB pg 134 controlling objective markers; "you control an objective marker if there is a t least one model from one of your scoring units (see below), and no models from enemy scoring units, within 3" of it.. Any unit that is in a building is considered to be within 3" of any objective markers that are on or within 3" of the building."

-BRB pg 134, scoring units; "any unit can be a scoring unit, unless:
(go to 4th bullet point).. "It is a building or fortification that is unclaimed (claimed buildings count as a scoring unit from the claiming player's army)."

(A claimed bunker is a scoring unit.)


Claiming Buildings:
BRB pg 112, claiming buildings; "to keep track of which side currently controls a building, we use the concept of 'claiming' buildings (or, if you prefer, planting your flag).
at the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are 'unclaimed'.
a claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy.
if a unit enters a building, they immediately capture and claim that building, and it becomes part of that unit's side until the building is either destroyed, or an enemy unit re-enters it (and therefore re-claims it)."
(The bunker is claimed at the start of the game and if set within 3" of an objective (or on top one even) can score/contest that objective, while operating the comms)



Whew. As you can see it takes an act of congress to find and put all that together into a strategy but everything I use is supported by the rules and apparently even intentionally encouraged by design.

Anyway hope this helps clarify and maybe helps other players to see the insane value of fortifications in an army as flexible as GKs, when taken in the context of a scoring 55 pt model and when compared to say an aegis DL which does none of the above. Much of this can also be applied to other forts like vengeance weapons batteries etc which I used extensively up until 7th's nerf to skyfire.

Wow, thank you for that. This changes a lot for me because I've been having a lot of trouble trying to fit a comms relay into my GK army without having to babysit the comms relay.

Very interesting. Unfortunately I don't have a bunker. Only ADL, Aquila Strong point, and Vengeance battery.

I think ADL is a waste - just roll the 3+ - a fair amount will hit turn 1 and youll have reinforcements to place after they react to your alpha. Also I only like 2 setups with Dreadknights - Cannon/incinerator/sword/tele or Incinerator/sword/tele typically you are going to want the psycannon though...i mean it's 6 shots str 7 - it's incredible. I'd say drop a libby and ADL and take another maxed out dread-knight. Also I would give the DLD to the GM.

Grand master is only ml2 right? Draigo is, too, with one oif the powers you want guaranteed. Taking the grand master in the hopes that you get the two powers you want isn't competitive. Being competitive takes as much chance out of the gas me as possible.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think ADL is a waste - just roll the 3+ - a fair amount will hit turn 1 and youll have reinforcements to place after they react to your alpha. Also I only like 2 setups with Dreadknights - Cannon/incinerator/sword/tele or Incinerator/sword/tele typically you are going to want the psycannon though...i mean it's 6 shots str 7 - it's incredible. I'd say drop a libby and ADL and take another maxed out dread-knight. Also I would give the DLD to the GM.

The problem is shiit happens. I've failed 5 reserves WITH the reroll before. I would of been tabled without it. Then consider counter reserve manipulation (reason I failed most of those 5) that everyone has access to and some have in spades. Casual sure you can take your chances but competitive with that many units and ICs you absolutely need to reroll. Its silly not to spend 70-75 pts to increase the odds of getting multiple 200+ pt units. Then consider the bunker is a better scoring unit then any GK unit could hope to be, albeit an immobile one.

I will say that I agree with dropping HQs to get NDKS. If were talking competitive then GKs builds are fairly cookie cutter. Not that I begrudge the OP for trying something different though.

siege2142 wrote:
Grand master is only ml2 right? Draigo is, too, with one oif the powers you want guaranteed. Taking the grand master in the hopes that you get the two powers you want isn't competitive. Being competitive takes as much chance out of the gas me as possible.

Disagree. Draigo doesn't have a psycannon and he can't get vortex of doom or cleansing flame so taking him is basically a 215 point transport. Your warlord can do so much more than that. He can provide destruction the turn he drops in - he can drop vortex of doom into a death star for goodbye death star - he can use cleansing flame to break out of a tarpit due to a failed gate. The GM is just doing more as long as hes not dying. Thats why I like him and use him over draigo wherever possible - biggest drawback is no eternal warrior - not a big deal if you are in a 10 man term squad.

Xenomancers- Lol ninja'd each other. I agree on most points with the GM vs draigo, in THIS list. That said he can't cast cleansing flame from combat (unless I misunderstood ya).

You can proxy a bunker with an appropriate sized box for now, or make one out of foam fairly easily.

If you move the liber daemonica to the GM that would work too.

I am not sure why you put a master craft weapon on the GM

Also you say you don't need flying if you have gate to infinity - but you aren't guaranteed that right off the bat FYI.

Move your melta bombs off of your librarians, and onto your justicars. Librarians are already targets - keep em cheap and spread out your good stuff in your units. Also make sure the hammers are not on your justicar's either. and hammers aren't on your psy cannon guys. In case your opponent gets a lucky strike, you don't have all your eggs in one basket.

Torrent Flamer is 6 STR Torrent and is very rapeface against many units. I run my NDK/s with flamer, shunt, sword.

There are two reason I add an inquisitor: 25 points - plus 9 points for 3 servo skulls. 1) Servo Skulls are AMAZING - they deny your opponent infiltrate and scout moves and 2) anything you deep strike within 12" of a servo skull only scatters 1d6 instead of 2d6. When you are trying to place large units of terminators, making sure you don't peril is HUGE. 2) If your opponent is able to deep strike and get to your bunker, you are boned.

marinecorpstim wrote:
2) If your opponent is able to deep strike and get to your bunker, you are boned.

They would have to get inside the bunker so you'll have it for at least the first turn reserve rolls. After that, the bunker has served most of it's purpose. You could also hide the inquisitor in the bunker.

^ inquisitor in bunker is what I do.

dominuschao wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think ADL is a waste - just roll the 3+ - a fair amount will hit turn 1 and youll have reinforcements to place after they react to your alpha. Also I only like 2 setups with Dreadknights - Cannon/incinerator/sword/tele or Incinerator/sword/tele typically you are going to want the psycannon though...i mean it's 6 shots str 7 - it's incredible. I'd say drop a libby and ADL and take another maxed out dread-knight. Also I would give the DLD to the GM.

The problem is shiit happens. I've failed 5 reserves WITH the reroll before. I would of been tabled without it. Then consider counter reserve manipulation (reason I failed most of those 5) that everyone has access to and some have in spades. Casual sure you can take your chances but competitive with that many units and ICs you absolutely need to reroll. Its silly not to spend 70-75 pts to increase the odds of getting multiple 200+ pt units. Then consider the bunker is a better scoring unit then any GK unit could hope to be, albeit an immobile one.

I will say that I agree with dropping HQs to get NDKS. If were talking competitive then GKs builds are fairly cookie cutter. Not that I begrudge the OP for trying something different though.

Stuff can totally go wrong. I think the odds are so good though even if you drop a libby that you are getting all your terms in on turn 1 it's not worth the loss of 75 points.

You've got a 36% chance to auto deep strike with 1 squad first turn or gain an additional power from re-rolled warlord trait.

You've got a 50% chance at gates from a 3 spell psyker which he has
a 66% chance to get gates froma 4 spell psyker
a 36 % chance from a 2 spell one
and it's a 66% chance to get 1 unit in from reserve.

Pretty good chances.

If these risks increase your chances to win (which adding more firepower and more useful spells should do this.) your chances of winning go up imo.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:
Xenomancers- Lol ninja'd each other. I agree on most points with the GM vs draigo, in THIS list. That said he can't cast cleansing flame from combat (unless I misunderstood ya).

Is there a rule that prohibits you from using psychic shooting attacks while locked in combat? I've been palying this wrong and no one has stopped me up to this point if that is the case lol.

Edited: My math is totally wrong


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:
Xenomancers- Lol ninja'd each other. I agree on most points with the GM vs draigo, in THIS list. That said he can't cast cleansing flame from combat (unless I misunderstood ya).

Is there a rule that prohibits you from using psychic shooting attacks while locked in combat? I've been palying this wrong and no one has stopped me up to this point if that is the case lol.

The rules for Witchfire spells say to treat them as shooting attacks. You can not perform shooting attacks in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Remember: You can always combat squad your terminators.

The big problems with a list like this (which I ran last tournament - but I used a storm raven VS a grandmaster

is that smart players - Guard / Tau - will "bubble wrap" the stuff you want to get at. That means, they put kroot or cheap guardsmen around things. That means they get 2 solid turns to decimate your squad / move the heavy fire power they want away from your squad. Thats my only real problem with this list-type.

Also if you are using the inquisitor to man your bunker - for 10 points each you can add a servitor w/ heavy bolter or multi-melta. Making your bunker a fire base that protects whatever objective you are sitting on

marinecorpstim wrote:
Remember: You can always combat squad your terminators.

The big problems with a list like this (which I ran last tournament - but I used a storm raven VS a grandmaster

is that smart players - Guard / Tau - will "bubble wrap" the stuff you want to get at. That means, they put kroot or cheap guardsmen around things. That means they get 2 solid turns to decimate your squad / move the heavy fire power they want away from your squad. Thats my only real problem with this list-type.

Also if you are using the inquisitor to man your bunker - for 10 points each you can add a servitor w/ heavy bolter or multi-melta. Making your bunker a fire base that protects whatever objective you are sitting on

Psycannon is range 24...bubble wrap is not much of a concern. For 6 inch melta range it is but not for range 24. It can surely make it harder to not mishap and gain ideal position but it just means that you have to be a little more cautious Combat squading the squads that don't get a sanctuary would be fine but that will just make it harder to not mishap for other squads dropping in. It basically always pays to be bold in those situations and just go for the direct hits where you need to be and if you fail you fail - this is a dice game after all.

Is there a rule that prohibits you from using psychic shooting attacks while locked in combat? I've been palying this wrong and no one has stopped me up to this point if that is the case lol.

Yes since witchfires are treated as shooting attacks. Note that cleansing flame can effect units which are locked in combat.

The big problems with a list like this (which I ran last tournament - but I used a storm raven VS a grandmaster

is that smart players - Guard / Tau - will "bubble wrap" the stuff you want to get at. That means, they put kroot or cheap guardsmen around things. That means they get 2 solid turns to decimate your squad / move the heavy fire power they want away from your squad. Thats my only real problem with this list-type.

Bubble wrap can be troublesome for GK but theres not much to be done about it outside of allies. Its like saying the castle counter tactic is the problem with drop pod armies.

My anti-bubble is the torrent flamers - and using the Inquisitors Servo skulls to allow me to get even closer in.

if you refuse to follow any of my advice for whatever reason and are just going to argue all of the points I made don't bother posting at all. You posted this list because you know it isn't perfect and want to improve it. Arguing like you did in the above post is purely defensive and doesn't get you anywhere.

Wow, dude. Check your ego. He's asking for advice, not for someone to tell him how to play. That's a key difference.

^ No I think he had every right to say that. I made initial advice and felt like the reply was a bit brusque

Eh, sounded to me like you mentioned your thoughts on the list, and he responded with the reasons behind why he felt he could address those issues you mentioned. I mean, if you two had gone back and forth multiple times and he just kept brushing you off, sure, but that was just round one of the discussion.

My solution to bubble wrap is drop pod combat squad purifiers w/cleansing flame.

Drop pod purifiers? So you ally w a space marine chapter or space wolves?