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Pretty simple but specific.

Say a unit and an IC are in a transport. Can the unit disembark, the vehicle move 6", and then the IC disembark?

I cannot find any restrictions on this but I wanted to pool any collective thoughts on the subject.


Let me know

Assuming the squad and the IC are not joined, yes.

"A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6". "

From the Core book on page 81 under the section Disembarking.

The squad and the IC are different units in this scenario.

I don't believe so, and here is why:

Rules state that an independent character can only join or leave a unit in the movement phase. For him to embark on the transport would require him to join the unit, since the transport can't have more than 1 unit inside. A unit may disembark from the transport, as stated above me before or after the transport moves no more than 6 inches. This would lead me to believe that the transport may disgorge a single unit, regardless of size. Now this doesn't imply to me that a unit may get out, either leaving the IC or unit inside the transport. In my opinion doing so is outside of the spirit of the intended rule.

This will surely turn into a RaW or RaI discussion.

Its a NO, I'm afraid. The IC and unit are joined.
They start the turn as a single unit.

From the Movement phase: "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit."

If the unit disembarks and leave the IC inside, then both their moves are done.

 Firehead158 wrote:
I don't believe so, and here is why:

Rules state that an independent character can only join or leave a unit in the movement phase. For him to embark on the transport would require him to join the unit, since the transport can't have more than 1 unit inside. A unit may disembark from the transport, as stated above me before or after the transport moves no more than 6 inches. This would lead me to believe that the transport may disgorge a single unit, regardless of size. Now this doesn't imply to me that a unit may get out, either leaving the IC or unit inside the transport. In my opinion doing so is outside of the spirit of the intended rule.

This will surely turn into a RaW or RaI discussion.

The unit does the disembarking, the vehicle has nothing to do with it.

Also, there's an entire section (on page 81 in the physical, dead-tree rule book) that deals with ICs and disembarking which specifically allows the IC to remain behind in the transport while the rest of the unit leaves or vice versa.

So, i'd say that what the OP proposes is just fine.

 Firehead158 wrote:
Now this doesn't imply to me that a unit may get out, either leaving the IC or unit inside the transport.

The rules specifically allow the IC to remain in the vehicle while the unit gets out, or vice versa.

However, this:

 grendel083 wrote:
Its a NO, I'm afraid. The IC and unit are joined.
They start the turn as a single unit.

From the Movement phase: "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit."

If the unit disembarks and leave the IC inside, then both their moves are done.

It's the same as if you had them on the table, and chose to move the unit away and leave the IC where he is. You can't then go on and move the rest of your army, and then come back at the end and move the IC. He already had his movement with the unit he was joined to... he chose to not move.

 Firehead158 wrote:
I don't believe so, and here is why:

Rules state that an independent character can only join or leave a unit in the movement phase. For him to embark on the transport would require him to join the unit, since the transport can't have more than 1 unit inside. A unit may disembark from the transport, as stated above me before or after the transport moves no more than 6 inches. This would lead me to believe that the transport may disgorge a single unit, regardless of size. Now this doesn't imply to me that a unit may get out, either leaving the IC or unit inside the transport. In my opinion doing so is outside of the spirit of the intended rule.

This will surely turn into a RaW or RaI discussion.

See:

"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it.) After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to the Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry." -Page 82

and

"Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on a if any part of it is" -Page 80

and

"The unit and the Independent Character(s) can, in a later Movement phase disembark together as a single unit. Alternatively they can separate by either the unit or Independent Character(s) disembarking while the others remain on board. They can even separate by disembarking at the same time, so long as they end their moves more than 2" away from each other." - Page 81 section titled Independent Characters & Transports.

Yep. Works just like that.

 insaniak wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Its a NO, I'm afraid. The IC and unit are joined.
They start the turn as a single unit.

From the Movement phase: "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit."

If the unit disembarks and leave the IC inside, then both their moves are done.

It's the same as if you had them on the table, and chose to move the unit away and leave the IC where he is. You can't then go on and move the rest of your army, and then come back at the end and move the IC. He already had his movement with the unit he was joined to... he chose to not move.

Those two situations are slightly different though. When the Unit is on the table, both the Unit and the IC can move.
("An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it."
In the case above, as Grendel says, moving the Transport is "another Unit" <- Or is it? Dedicated?

 BlackTalos wrote:
In the case above, as Grendel says, moving the Transport is "another Unit" <- Or is it? Dedicated?

Dedicated or not, the transport is another Unit. It's not the same Unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Those two situations are slightly different though. When the Unit is on the table, both the Unit and the IC can move.

They can do so in the transport as well. When it comes time to disembark, they can all pile out together, they can all pile out and the IC move off in a different direction, or one of them can pile out and the other choose to remain where they are.


In any of those cases, the unit has performed its movement for the phase.

Hmmm. So an IC can stay onboard an open topped transport while his unit disembarks before the vehile moves and prepares for a charge in the assault phase. He moves with the vehicle 6 more inches and subsequently moves his 6 inches and prepares for his own charge.

 Byte wrote:
Hmmm. So an IC can stay onboard an open topped transport while his unit disembarks before the vehile moves and prepares for a charge in the assault phase. He moves with the vehicle 6 more inches and subsequently moves his 6 inches and prepares for his own charge.

That is not what is being said.

The IC and unit onboard have to finish their move for the movement phase before moving on to the next unit in your army. If you move the transport after disembarking the unit then the IC can't move further because he missed his opportunity to move that turn.

Zimko wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Hmmm. So an IC can stay onboard an open topped transport while his unit disembarks before the vehile moves and prepares for a charge in the assault phase. He moves with the vehicle 6 more inches and subsequently moves his 6 inches and prepares for his own charge.

That is not what is being said.

The IC and unit onboard have to finish their move for the movement phase before moving on to the next unit in your army. If you move the transport after disembarking the unit then the IC can't move further because he missed his opportunity to move that turn.

I agree with the above.

The unit and the Independent Character( s) can, in a later Movement phase, disembark together as a single unit. Alternatively, they can separate by either the unit or the Independent Character( s) disembarking while the others remain on board. They can even separate by disembarking at the same time, so long as they end their moves more than 2" away from each other.

If an IC and Unit are both embarked, they are automatically joined. As such they are one unit. There is no permission to begin moving a unit, move another unit, then go back and finish moving the first unit, as such you can separate the IC and Unit in a vehicle as per the above, but the result of having the unit(minus the IC) disembark and leaving the IC onboard, still counts as the IC moving as the IC and unit were 1 unit when you chose to have the unit disembark, and keep the IC onboard. In effect you chose to move all the models in the unit except for 1, the IC who you forego movement with that turn.

 insaniak wrote:

It's the same as if you had them on the table, and chose to move the unit away and leave the IC where he is. You can't then go on and move the rest of your army, and then come back at the end and move the IC. He already had his movement with the unit he was joined to... he chose to not move.

Unless I missed something, strictly RAW speaking you can't move the unit away and leave the IC where he is. For an IC to leave a unit he must move away from them, not the other way around. I don't believe there is anything that states an IC moving away from a unit counts as that unit moving. You should be able to move an IC away from a unit, then move a transport then move the IC's former unit.

'll admit this is a bit of a gray area as the rule book is shockingly vague in some areas. That being said you should also be able to disembark the unit from a transport leaving the IC behind then move the transport then disembark the IC.

You move units one at a time. The IC doesn't leave the unit until he moves out of coherency with it... so at the time you actually move him, he is a part of the unit. So moving the character is a part of moving the unit. You can't establish that he is out of coherency with the unit until the whole unit's movement is completed.

 insaniak wrote:
You move units one at a time. The IC doesn't leave the unit until he moves out of coherency with it... so at the time you actually move him, he is a part of the unit. So moving the character is a part of moving the unit. You can't establish that he is out of coherency with the unit until the whole unit's movement is completed.

Maybe. What the rulebook actually says is that the IC leaves the unit by moving out of coherency with it. It does not say the IC is still part of the unit until he moves out of coherency. Does that mean he becomes a separate unit the moment you decided he was going to leave and his move is only legal if it takes him out of coherency? Does this mean when the unit moves he may end his part of that move out of coherency and then be counted as a separate unit? Since the passage is vague and lacks a real limiting statements like 'once the IC has left the unit that unit may make no more additional moves this phase' its open for debate.

I'd be happy to play it either way, but even if you go with the second option there is still room for debate. If you go that route you can actually get the scenario you described above. The question then becomes weather of not the IC's new unit counts as having moved. By all accounts all models in the unit have remained stationary up to this point and weather or not a model has moved is in fact checked at the model level.Its plausible to treat the new IC unit as having not moved and allow it to move after other units have completed their movements.

 DJGietzen wrote:
It does not say the IC is still part of the unit until he moves out of coherency.

Not in that sentence, no.

However, we are told that while he is with the unit, he is a part of the unit for all rules purposes. Ergo, he is a part of the unit until he leaves it... which happens by moving him out of coherency. But he can't be out of coherency until the unit has finished its movement... otherwise you have no way of determining that he did, in fact, move out of coherency. The movement is still on-going.

You don't check coherency on the unit the moment you move a single model. If that were the case, it would never be legal to move units that contain more than one model unless you somehow move all of the models at the same time.

 insaniak wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
It does not say the IC is still part of the unit until he moves out of coherency.

Not in that sentence, no.

However, we are told that while he is with the unit, he is a part of the unit for all rules purposes. Ergo, he is a part of the unit until he leaves it... which happens by moving him out of coherency. But he can't be out of coherency until the unit has finished its movement... otherwise you have no way of determining that he did, in fact, move out of coherency. The movement is still on-going.

You don't check coherency on the unit the moment you move a single model. If that were the case, it would never be legal to move units that contain more than one model unless you somehow move all of the models at the same time.

The question is weather or not an IC that is leaving a unit is part of that unit. Is he not part of the until because he is leaving, or is he not part of the unit because has has left. The rules tell us the mechanism for leaving the unit, they do not tell us if the IC stops being part of the unit the moment it begins the mechanism, or the moment it completes it.

It doesn't need to tell us that. The timing is a simple side effect of the way the mechanics work.

He leaves by moving out of coherency. We can't determine that he is out of coherency until after movement is concluded.

 insaniak wrote:
It doesn't need to tell us that. The timing is a simple side effect of the way the mechanics work.

He leaves by moving out of coherency. We can't determine that he is out of coherency until after movement is concluded.

But it does. The question is "Is he part of the unit he is leaving?" You can determine he is leaving because I told you he is leaving, that's what made the move out of coherency legal in the 1st place right? If he is not part of the unit his is leaving, his movement to leave should not count against that unit.

Is it technically possible for the player to accidentally have an IC leave a unit because he placed the IC out of coherency and did not realize it? Or does it need to be a willful decision on the part of the player?

 DJGietzen wrote:
Is it technically possible for the player to accidentally have an IC leave a unit because he placed the IC out of coherency and did not realize it? Or does it need to be a willful decision on the part of the player?

There is no need for it to be declared in the current edition. If you finish your movement out of coherency, you have left the unit.

We're just going in circles at this point.

There is nothing to support the claim the the IC only stops being part of the unit he is leaving once he has moved out of coherency. There is also nothing to support the idea that he stops being part of the unit he is leaving the moment the controlling player decides he is leaving.

If the former is true, then his movement to leave the unit is part of that unit's movement for the turn. However if the latter is true he is not a member of the unit while he is in the process of leaving it, and therefor has no effect on that units movement.

 DJGietzen wrote:
We're just going in circles at this point.

There is nothing to support the claim the the IC only stops being part of the unit he is leaving once he has moved out of coherency.

There is. There's a rule dictating how he leaves the unit. Until he does that, he hasn't left the unit.

There is also nothing to support the idea that he stops being part of the unit he is leaving the moment the controlling player decides he is leaving.

Because you're making that up - there's nothing to support it because it isn't true.

If the former is true, then his movement to leave the unit is part of that unit's movement for the turn. However if the latter is true he is not a member of the unit while he is in the process of leaving it, and therefor has no effect on that units movement.

There are rules to support the former. The latter is wishful thinking. Which one is more important in a rules based discussion?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
We're just going in circles at this point.

There is nothing to support the claim the the IC only stops being part of the unit he is leaving once he has moved out of coherency.

There is. There's a rule dictating how he leaves the unit. Until he does that, he hasn't left the unit.

There is also nothing to support the idea that he stops being part of the unit he is leaving the moment the controlling player decides he is leaving.

Because you're making that up - there's nothing to support it because it isn't true.

If the former is true, then his movement to leave the unit is part of that unit's movement for the turn. However if the latter is true he is not a member of the unit while he is in the process of leaving it, and therefor has no effect on that units movement.

There are rules to support the former. The latter is wishful thinking. Which one is more important in a rules based discussion?

But there is in fact no rules support for the former. There is an assumption on your part that the IC is part of the unit until he is out of coherency.We know that moving out of coherency is how he leaves the unit, but what we don't know is if he remains part of the unit while he is leaving. Exactly when he stops being part of the unit is not in the book. Your assumption is a completely reasonable one, but it is not necessarily correct.

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
We're just going in circles at this point.

There is nothing to support the claim the the IC only stops being part of the unit he is leaving once he has moved out of coherency.

There is. There's a rule dictating how he leaves the unit. Until he does that, he hasn't left the unit.

There is also nothing to support the idea that he stops being part of the unit he is leaving the moment the controlling player decides he is leaving.

Because you're making that up - there's nothing to support it because it isn't true.

If the former is true, then his movement to leave the unit is part of that unit's movement for the turn. However if the latter is true he is not a member of the unit while he is in the process of leaving it, and therefor has no effect on that units movement.

There are rules to support the former. The latter is wishful thinking. Which one is more important in a rules based discussion?

But there is in fact no rules support for the former. There is an assumption on your part that the IC is part of the unit until he is out of coherency.We know that moving out of coherency is how he leaves the unit, but what we don't know is if he remains part of the unit while he is leaving. Exactly when he stops being part of the unit is not in the book. Your assumption is a completely reasonable one, but it is not necessarily correct.

He was part of the unit when you chose to move the unit. At some point after this fact, the IC becomes his own unit again. He was part of the former unit when it moved so he can't move further.

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
We're just going in circles at this point.

There is nothing to support the claim the the IC only stops being part of the unit he is leaving once he has moved out of coherency.

There is. There's a rule dictating how he leaves the unit. Until he does that, he hasn't left the unit.

There is also nothing to support the idea that he stops being part of the unit he is leaving the moment the controlling player decides he is leaving.

Because you're making that up - there's nothing to support it because it isn't true.

If the former is true, then his movement to leave the unit is part of that unit's movement for the turn. However if the latter is true he is not a member of the unit while he is in the process of leaving it, and therefor has no effect on that units movement.

There are rules to support the former. The latter is wishful thinking. Which one is more important in a rules based discussion?

But there is in fact no rules support for the former. There is an assumption on your part that the IC is part of the unit until he is out of coherency.We know that moving out of coherency is how he leaves the unit, but what we don't know is if he remains part of the unit while he is leaving. Exactly when he stops being part of the unit is not in the book. Your assumption is a completely reasonable one, but it is not necessarily correct.

It's not an assumption.

We're told he's part of the unit for all rules purposes.
We're told how he leaves the unit.

You are attempting to insert a gray area where he's not part of the unit and have failed to provide any rules supporting that idea. Failing some kind of rule citation from you, we can't just say "Well, man, he could be, like, transcending, man, and not even on this plane of existence."
I know the world is round. This is because I've seen evidence of it and nothing to the contrary.
I know the IC is part of the unit until he leaves it. I know this because there is evidence of that fact (he doesn't leave until the end of his movement) and nothing to the contrary.

When the character leaves the unit really isn't relevent to the topic at hand. What is important is that when you select the unit to move it, the character is part of it.

It's one unit at this point, even if it isn't one unit by the end of their move, their move still needs to be completed (both of them) before moving onto another unit.

You've "started" the movement of both the unit and the character.

 grendel083 wrote:
When the character leaves the unit really isn't relevent to the topic at hand. What is important is that when you select the unit to move it, the character is part of it.

It's one unit at this point, even if it isn't one unit by the end of their move, their move still needs to be completed (both of them) before moving onto another unit.

You've "started" the movement of both the unit and the character.

Its very important because if the character stops being part of the unit when the controlling player decides the character is leaving that unit then it is no longer part of that unit for all rules purposes and in the frame work of the rules they are two separate units.

The question, that the rules do not answer, is does the character stop being part of the unit because he is moving out of coherency or because he has moved out of coherency.

The rules only tell us that he can leave the unit by moving out of coherency but do not state the he remains in the unit until he is no longer in coherency. Its most definitely a grey area.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
When the character leaves the unit really isn't relevent to the topic at hand. What is important is that when you select the unit to move it, the character is part of it.

It's one unit at this point, even if it isn't one unit by the end of their move, their move still needs to be completed (both of them) before moving onto another unit.

You've "started" the movement of both the unit and the character.

Its very important because if the character stops being part of the unit when the controlling player decides the character is leaving that unit then it is no longer part of that unit for all rules purposes and in the frame work of the rules they are two separate units.

The question, that the rules do not answer, is does the character stop being part of the unit because he is moving out of coherency or because he has moved out of coherency.

The rules only tell us that he can leave the unit by moving out of coherency but do not state the he remains in the unit until he is no longer in coherency. Its most definitely a grey area.

I think you got the point and to answer your question. "beasue he has moved out of coherency". few edition back where you can elect an IC to leave a unit just by declaring it. That section no longer in the BRB. Declaring IC leaving a unit no longer have any effect in the rules, IC now need to physically move out of coherency as per BRB. So IC remain part of that unit until he is no longer in coherency since there is no method allow him not be part of that unit until he physically leave the unit.