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I was thinking of fielding Irillyth and under close reading of his rules I came to a quandry in relation to his special rule "shadow of death". By its wording it suggests that this power does not work on Irillyth as a solo model or as an IC joined to a non-shadow spectre squad.

the forgeworld site pdf on the model is here:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/I/Irillyth-2.pdf

any help on this would be most appriciated

The rule says that there must be a model with the rule in a shadow spectre squad for the ability to take effect. If you check out the ghostlight rule, it's different in that it allows the rule to function no matter who he's attached to.

If I were you, I'd just take a shadow spectre squad. Seems like he would offer more synergy attached to them than to anything else anyway.

I am looking forward to an answer....the fact that it says only one model needs the rule somewhat suggests he doesnt need to be with a spectre squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NightHowler wrote:
The rule says that there must be a model with the rule in a shadow spectre squad for the ability to take effect. If you check out the ghostlight rule, it's different in that it allows the rule to function no matter who he's attached to.

If I were you, I'd just take a shadow spectre squad. Seems like he would offer more synergy attached to them than to anything else anyway.

Only shadow spectres have the ghostlight special rule....so the hits need to be by shadow spectres.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
I am looking forward to an answer....the fact that it says only one model needs the rule somewhat suggests he doesnt need to be with a spectre squad.

To meet the requirement of the Shadow of Death rule, you must be "... within 12" of a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule...". Since Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectre squad', his Shadow of Death power doesn't work since he's not a unit of Shadow Spectres. He does not meet the requirements for the rule to take effect.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
I am looking forward to an answer....the fact that it says only one model needs the rule somewhat suggests he doesnt need to be with a spectre squad.

To meet the requirement of the Shadow of Death rule, you must be "... within 12" of a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule...". Since Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectre squad', his Shadow of Death power doesn't work since he's not a unit of Shadow Spectres. He does not meet the requirements for the rule to take effect.

I'd be fine with this as RAW and leave it there, except the wording is identical with the word "exarch" replaced by "Irillyth" to the exarch power. It's so oddly unique that my statistician brain sets off a "badly edited typography" alarm and that the RAI would give the ability to the Phoenix lord, not dependent on any other squad.

ninety0ne wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
I am looking forward to an answer....the fact that it says only one model needs the rule somewhat suggests he doesnt need to be with a spectre squad.

To meet the requirement of the Shadow of Death rule, you must be "... within 12" of a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule...". Since Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectre squad', his Shadow of Death power doesn't work since he's not a unit of Shadow Spectres. He does not meet the requirements for the rule to take effect.

I'd be fine with this as RAW and leave it there, except the wording is identical with the word "exarch" replaced by "Irillyth" to the exarch power. It's so oddly unique that my statistician brain sets off a "badly edited typography" alarm and that the RAI would give the ability to the Phoenix lord, not dependent on any other squad.

Email forgeworld


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
I am looking forward to an answer....the fact that it says only one model needs the rule somewhat suggests he doesnt need to be with a spectre squad.

To meet the requirement of the Shadow of Death rule, you must be "... within 12" of a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule...". Since Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectre squad', his Shadow of Death power doesn't work since he's not a unit of Shadow Spectres. He does not meet the requirements for the rule to take effect.

So would irrilyth by himself convey the rule? I would say yes. If a squad of one shadow spectre is still a shadow spectre squad.

How does then putting him with different units take away the power? Whats the reason?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could also argue that one unit has multiple squads in it.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
So would irrilyth by himself convey the rule? I would say yes. If a squad of one shadow spectre is still a shadow spectre squad.

No, because Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectres Squad' and thus doesn't meet the requirement of "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

 Smitty0305 wrote:
How does then putting him with different units take away the power? Whats the reason?

Same as above. You don't have "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

 Smitty0305 wrote:
You could also argue that one unit has multiple squads in it.

No, you actually can't. Not using rules anyway.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
So would irrilyth by himself convey the rule? I would say yes. If a squad of one shadow spectre is still a shadow spectre squad.

No, because Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectres Squad' and thus doesn't meet the requirement of "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

 Smitty0305 wrote:
How does then putting him with different units take away the power? Whats the reason?

Same as above. You don't have "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

Just because a squad depletes through casualties to one model doesnt make it cease being a squad.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
You could also argue that one unit has multiple squads in it.

No, you actually can't. Not using rules anyway.

Is there a rule in the BRB that defines a squad?

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
So would irrilyth by himself convey the rule? I would say yes. If a squad of one shadow spectre is still a shadow spectre squad.

No, because Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectres Squad' and thus doesn't meet the requirement of "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

 Smitty0305 wrote:
How does then putting him with different units take away the power? Whats the reason?

Same as above. You don't have "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

Just because a squad depletes through casualties to one model doesnt make it cease being a squad.

Did you actually bother to look at the rules linked in the original thread? Irillyth is not an upgrade for a squad of Shadow Spectres. He is a separate unit.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
So would irrilyth by himself convey the rule? I would say yes. If a squad of one shadow spectre is still a shadow spectre squad.

No, because Irillyth is not a 'Shadow Spectres Squad' and thus doesn't meet the requirement of "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

 Smitty0305 wrote:
How does then putting him with different units take away the power? Whats the reason?

Same as above. You don't have "... a Shadow Spectre squad that includes a model with this special rule..."

Just because a squad depletes through casualties to one model doesnt make it cease being a squad.

Did you actually bother to look at the rules linked in the original thread? Irillyth is not an upgrade for a squad of Shadow Spectres. He is a separate unit.

Thats exactly the point.

And the point is his unit is not 'Shadow Spectres'. His unit is 'Irillyth, the Shade of Twilight'.

 Ghaz wrote:
And the point is his unit is not 'Shadow Spectres'. His unit is 'Irillyth, the Shade of Twilight'.

A phoenix lord still counts as a model of his own aspect...irrilyth is a shadow spectre.

With what ur saying he wouldnt even get the rule if he was leading a squad of his own aspects.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
A phoenix lord still counts as a model of his own aspect...irrilyth is a shadow spectre.

Page and rules quote that a Phoenix Lord counts as a squad of his aspect. You won't find one.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
A phoenix lord still counts as a model of his own aspect...irrilyth is a shadow spectre.

Page and rules quote that a Phoenix Lord counts as a squad of his aspect. You won't find one.

I emailed Forgeworld, will be tickled pick if they give me a response back.

Conceptually it doesnt make sense to me that he looses an offensive ability based on his surrounding units, but who knows.

Are there rules for Shadow Spectres? Where are they?

If so, do they have the Shadow of Death rules? It may be that they, the squad, don't get it unless Irillyth is with them.

But if shadow spectres themselves have the rule, then it kind of makes no sense for Irillyth to have it too unless it applies while he's with any unit.

 Spellbound wrote:
Are there rules for Shadow Spectres?

Yes.

Where are they?

Here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/shadowspectres.pdf

If so, do they have the Shadow of Death rules?

It is an Exarch power.

It would seem then that it's the unit that gets the buff, when a certain character is present.

Perhaps their intent is that the character has the rule, but the way they've written it, it's a rule granted to the unit by the presence of the character. It would allow you to have the same ability for your shadow spectre squad by EITHER buying an exarch or by buying the Phoenix Lord.

However, looking at the wording, it's an ability granted to the squad of shadow spectres by the character, not an ability possessed by the character.

From the strict RAW reading, he would need to be with a unit of spectres for the rule to take effect.

However, in my games, I just count Irillyth as having the rule on his own, and have never had anyone complain. To me, the intent is pretty clear. It would work similar to unit of Spectres that was killed down to a single Exarch who had the power.

Many people on here will defualt and argue the strict RAW if you do not specify that you asking a RAI/HYWPI question, so dont feel discouraged. Few people actually play by strict RAW anyways.

This doesn't seem to be a RaI versus RaW issue.

RaW, Irillyth's rule only has an effect when he is with a unit of a Shadow Spectres.

The probable RaI is that a unit of Shadow Spectres can benefit from the rule when Irrilyth is present even if there is no Exarch present.

Playing it otherwise is making a house rule to benefit yourself. If you opponents are aware of the RaW, but have no issue with you playing it differently, awesome. If you're just telling the opponent this is how it works and have never had anyone complain... Well, that's called cheating. I would just say to make sure your opponent is 100% clear on the RaW and let them draw their own HIWPI conclusion.

 Kriswall wrote:
This doesn't seem to be a RaI versus RaW issue.

RaW, Irillyth's rule only has an effect when he is with a unit of a Shadow Spectres.

The probable RaI is that a unit of Shadow Spectres can benefit from the rule when Irrilyth is present even if there is no Exarch present.

Playing it otherwise is making a house rule to benefit yourself. If you opponents are aware of the RaW, but have no issue with you playing it differently, awesome. If you're just telling the opponent this is how it works and have never had anyone complain... Well, that's called cheating. I would just say to make sure your opponent is 100% clear on the RaW and let them draw their own HIWPI conclusion.

Given that logic, you better have a full 2 hour rundown of the Psychic Phase everytime you play a game against someone new, that way you can be sure nobody is cheating. Hell, you might want to just devote a whole day before the match to reveiw all the broken rules that can not be played RAW. Rather than waste time in the way that you suggest, I would just directly tell my
fellow gamer how I will be playing the rule. I always bring my FW print-outs to the game, and I always read any non standard rules (such as this one) out loud to my opponent. What I was trying to tell the OP is that of the 30+ times that I have fielded Irillyth, not one person has objected to my interpretation of that rule. I made that statement to show in a real world example that most people do not play as "tightly" as they debate on here, and that there is a good shot he can play the way I beleive it was intended.

I play it this way not because I believe it will give me an advantage. If I really wanted an advantafge I wouldnt be running an overcosted, mediocre special character in my army in the first place. I play it like this because I strongly believe that it was intended to be played as such. A single Shadow Spectre Exarch would benafit from the rule if he was on his own, Why would the Phoenix Lord of that Aspect not? This is why I beleive it to be an oversight.

This isn't a broken rule, so your snark about the Psychic phase isn't applicable.

The rule clearly requires Irrilyth to be in a Unit of Shadow Spectres for Shadow of Death to have any effect. RaW isn't vague or ambiguous.

If you believe that the intention was to allow Irrilyth to use the rule alone or in other Units, that's fine. If you let your opponent know that the rule says one thing, but that you will be playing it a different way, that's fine.

If you simply read the rule and then play it a different way without really pointing out that you are purposefully not playing it the way the rules tell you to... Well, that could easily be misconstrued as deceptive. If I found that an opponent was doing this, I'd ask them to be more specific about house ruling something in the future. I would want this exchange to occur...

"Hey, rule A says to do B. I think it makes more sense to do C instead. Are you ok with that?"

Without this exchange it is, at best, unintentionally deceptive; at worst, intentionally deceptive. Either way, the opponent has been mislead into thinking you're playing the rule as written.

It's just good sportsmanship to unambiguously point out any house rules you'd like to use.

In defense of extremefreak17's position, as smitty0305 mentions above, RAW might not be ambiguous but it is so atypical to have any rule on an IC that doesn't apply to the IC, that it seems more to be a typographical error by FW (copy/pasting the exarch ability) than an Intended consequence. Hence the entire thread. I don't think your claim of RAW being clear is really all that more valid given the general issues we all know pop up in RAW. Hopefully smitty0305 will get his clarification email from FW returned and we will have a chapter approved answer. But again this is so unique (power that an IC doesn't get on its own outside any squad, nor confers to a joined squad) that I'm inclined to believe RAW is an editing mistake.

The RAW (rule as written) is clear. You're trying to say that the intention of the rule is not clear.

 Ghaz wrote:
The RAW (rule as written) is clear. You're trying to say that the intention of the rule is not clear.

Absolutely, but the RAW is so strange I put it to a forum based on the assumption it had been FAQ'd or covered somewhere and the community would point me to the updated or corrected docs.

I don't feel that the RaW is that strange. It's an Exarch power that appears specifically intended to improve the effectiveness of a unit of Shadow Spectres. Why would it possibly be strange to restrict usage of the rule to Shadow Spectres. It would be significantly stranger, from a fluff perspective if a Phoenix Lord could give, say, a Unit of Dark Eldar Wyches a power normally reserved to Shadow Spectres.

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't feel that the RaW is that strange. It's an Exarch power that appears specifically intended to improve the effectiveness of a unit of Shadow Spectres. Why would it possibly be strange to restrict usage of the rule to Shadow Spectres. It would be significantly stranger, from a fluff perspective if a Phoenix Lord could give, say, a Unit of Dark Eldar Wyches a power normally reserved to Shadow Spectres.

Afaik it's the only exarch power that works that way hence the oddity of it. It's more bizarre from a fluff standpoint: to be RAW the rule violates the fluff by making the statement a Phoenix lord is not considered part of its aspect.

ninety0ne wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't feel that the RaW is that strange. It's an Exarch power that appears specifically intended to improve the effectiveness of a unit of Shadow Spectres. Why would it possibly be strange to restrict usage of the rule to Shadow Spectres. It would be significantly stranger, from a fluff perspective if a Phoenix Lord could give, say, a Unit of Dark Eldar Wyches a power normally reserved to Shadow Spectres.

Afaik it's the only exarch power that works that way hence the oddity of it. It's more bizarre from a fluff standpoint: to be RAW the rule violates the fluff by making the statement a Phoenix lord is not considered part of its aspect.

You could just as easily say the rule is meant to represent the power a unit being in the presence of their Lord or Exarch would experience. Of course it would have no effect on non Shadow Spectres.

This is why fluff is a terrible argument to bring into a rules debate. For every fluff argument you can raise, I can come up with another to counter it.

 Kriswall wrote:
It would be significantly stranger, from a fluff perspective if a Phoenix Lord could give, say, a Unit of Dark Eldar Wyches a power normally reserved to Shadow Spectres.

I'm really not trying to be snarky with this but you brought up the fluff part


Im only looking at statistical incidence of a rule type. In this case its an outlier, and I dont trust outliers as representing intention in a large population

ninety0ne wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
It would be significantly stranger, from a fluff perspective if a Phoenix Lord could give, say, a Unit of Dark Eldar Wyches a power normally reserved to Shadow Spectres.

I'm really not trying to be snarky with this but you brought up the fluff part


Im only looking at statistical incidence of a rule type. In this case its an outlier, and I dont trust outliers as representing intention in a large population

I definitely see what you're getting at. You'd like this rule to work the same way as all the other Exarch Powers. Then again, what is the population of Forgeworld written Exarch Powers? Let me check... one? Unless I'm mistaken, this is the only Forgeworld written Exarch Power. I might be mistaken, but hopefully my point is conveyed. A different set of authors wrote these rules versus the set who wrote Codex: Eldar. The rule is written concisely and with zero ambiguity. It is very likely that the rule works exactly as intended. To assume that the rule was written incorrectly and that a Shadow Spectre Exarch Power that enhances the Unit and not the Exarch himself should apply to non-Shadow Spectre units seems a little... I don't know. Presumptuous? There is a presumption being made that the writers didn't know what they were doing or that they aren't allowed to write rules differently than other authors.