barrage weapons fired directly, wound allocation

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**Crablezworth**

So I've seen the claim that barrage weapons still wound from the center of the blast, even when fired directly. The claim being that it "doesn't stop being a barrage weapon" even though you're firing it directly. The problem for me is the rules for barrage say they include the rules for blast, and blast is most definitely telling you to pull closest first, even when out of los.

**rigeld2**

Spoiler:

It doesn't say only when indirect. It says always assume the shot is coming from the center.

Barrage is more specific and therefore "wins" over Blast.

**Crablezworth**

So regardlss of facing I can shoot a basilisk direct and always hit the side armour? Are you seriously arguing that?

**Desubot**

Direct/indirect and wound allocation/side armor are two diffrent bullet points

you are hitting side even if you are shooting at rear armor.

**rigeld2**

Crablezworth wrote:
So regardlss of facing I can shoot a basilisk direct and always hit the side armour? Are you seriously arguing that?

Since that's what the rule says... how can you argue against it?

**Bojazz**

Technically, you're hitting the "top" armour with barrage weapons, as the fluff points out that barrage weapons lob shells high into the air. To represent this with game rules, they assume all vehicles have a "top" armour equal to their side armour.

**Crablezworth**

Guys barrage weapons are blast weapons with the ability to shoot out of los. The exceptions are literally "what;s different when shooting out of los"

If I was shooting large blast barrage weapon directly, why would it hit the top of a vehicle?

**rigeld2**

Crablezworth wrote:
Guys barrage weapons are blast weapons with the ability to shoot out of los. The exceptions are literally "what;s different when shooting out of los"

That's not what the rules say. Have you read them?

Spoiler:

Since the second bullet is separate from the first, it is always an exception and not just when firing out of LoS.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crablezworth wrote:
If I was shooting large blast barrage weapon directly, why would it hit the top of a vehicle?

Because that's what the rules say.

**Crablezworth**

rigeld2 wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
Guys barrage weapons are blast weapons with the ability to shoot out of los. The exceptions are literally "what;s different when shooting out of los"

That's not what the rules say. Have you read them?

Spoiler:

All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:
• • Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.
• • To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

Since the second bullet is separate from the first, it is always an exception and not just when firing out of LoS.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crablezworth wrote:
If I was shooting large blast barrage weapon directly, why would it hit the top of a vehicle?

Because that's what the rules say.

The entire point of the exceptions is the inference that "this is what's different when you fire indirectly"

**Desubot**

Crablezworth wrote:
Guys barrage weapons are blast weapons with the ability to shoot out of los. The exceptions are literally "what;s different when shooting out of los"

If I was shooting large blast barrage weapon directly, why would it hit the top of a vehicle?

refer back to those are separate bullet points.

The game is an abstraction. otherwise why are we able to shoot pistols at supersonic jets?

**rigeld2**

That's your assumption. The actual, quoted, rule disagrees.

I wonder which one is the actual rules... your statements or the ones I quoted?

Barrage weapons use the rules for blast weapons with the following exceptions:
*) They can fire out of LoS.
*) Wounds are allocated from the center and side armor is always used

Why are you conflating the two? You're literally adding words to the rule to make it work like you want.

**Crablezworth**

rigeld2 wrote:
That's your assumption. The actual, quoted, rule disagrees.

I wonder which one is the actual rules... your statements or the ones I quoted?

Barrage weapons use the rules for blast weapons with the following exceptions:
*) They can fire out of LoS.
*) Wounds are allocated from the center.

Why are you conflating the two? You're literally adding words to the rule to make it work like you want.

Why are you leaving out the hitting on side armour, I mean it's good to fully own an absurd premise

the "always" refers to every time you fire using the indirect method aka the barrage rule

Barrage weapons are blast weapons that *CAN* shoot out of los and when they do, that's when you apply the exceptions to the blast rule.

**rigeld2**

Crablezworth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
That's your assumption. The actual, quoted, rule disagrees.

I wonder which one is the actual rules... your statements or the ones I quoted?

Barrage weapons use the rules for blast weapons with the following exceptions:
*) They can fire out of LoS.
*) Wounds are allocated from the center and side armor is always used

Why are you conflating the two? You're literally adding words to the rule to make it work like you want.

Why are you leaving out the hitting on side armour, I mean it's good to fully own an absurd premise

Sure, I'll add it.

Now, I resent it being called an absurd premise. You've failed in literally every post to come up with a rules based disagreement. Do so please.

edit: Why come into a rules discussion forum if you don't want to actually discuss the rules?

**Desubot**

Crablezworth wrote:

the "always" refers to every time you fire using the indirect method aka the barrage rule

Barrage weapons are blast weapons that *CAN* shoot out of los and when they do, that's when you apply the exceptions to the blast rule.

Do you have an actual rules quote for this because im not seeing it.

**Majsharan**

I have always played it (if my oppent will allow it) where if the basilisk is firing direct against armor it must use LOS, looses the large blast but becomes heavy 1 and rolls an extra d3 for armor penetration.

If it is firing direct against infantry, it must use LOS, becomes heavy 1 but you must assign a number to each model in the squad you are aiming it, you must roll whatever that number is. The large blast is centered on the model of the number which is rolled.

Most people agree to these rules.

**Desubot**

Majsharan wrote:
I have always played it (if my oppent will allow it) where if the basilisk is firing direct against armor it must use LOS, looses the large blast but becomes heavy 1 and rolls an extra d3 for armor penetration.

If it is firing direct against infantry, it must use LOS, becomes heavy 1 but you must assign a number to each model in the squad you are aiming it, you must roll whatever that number is. The large blast is centered on the model of the number which is rolled.

Most people agree to these rules.

Holy Houserules Batman.

Still has nothing to do with the actual game rules though its cool.

**Crablezworth**

"Multiple Barrages
If a unit fires more than one shot with the Barrage special rule, they fire together, as
follows:"

so basucally a unit of basilisks firing directly can't fire directly...

I can't help but notice the wording "if a unit fires more than one shot with the barrage special rule"

Does the unit, the weapon or "the shot" use the barrage usr?

Almost like if you're shooting directly you justs use the blast weapon rules....

**grendel083**

Crablezworth wrote:
Almost like if you're shooting directly you justs use the blast weapon rules....

Not at all, and not what the barrage rules say.

Just because it's not firing indirecty, doesn't mean it's no longer a barrage weapon.

**Desubot**

Or you know They are firing a barrage weapon and subtracting there BS as apposed to indirect that doesnt let you but gives you the option to fire OLOS

And even then They use the rules for a blast weapon with the following exception of there shots hit side armor.

how are you even arguing this?

**rigeld2**

Crablezworth wrote:
"Multiple Barrages
If a unit fires more than one shot with the Barrage special rule, they fire together, as
follows:"

so basucally a unit of basilisks firing directly can't fire directly...

Why not?

I can't help but notice the wording "if a unit fires more than one shot with the barrage special rule"

Does the unit, the weapon or "the shot" use the barrage usr?

The weapons do. And weapons fire shots. So...

Almost like if you're shooting directly you justs use the blast weapon rules....

Almost like if that was the case rather than you making things up, it'd be stated somewhere.

Found it yet or are you just going to keep mocking people?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crablezworth wrote:
the "always" refers to every time you fire using the indirect method aka the barrage rule

Barrage weapons are blast weapons that *CAN* shoot out of los and when they do, that's when you apply the exceptions to the blast rule.

That's not what the rules say. You're literally making things up.

**Crablezworth**

So what you're saying is a unit of 3 basilisks firing directly still flip off of each other rather than scatter separately?

rigeld2 wrote:
just going to keep mocking people?

Keep the tone up and I'll have no problem reporting the abuse of the first rule. Calm down. I haven't mocked anyone.

**Desubot**

Crablezworth wrote:
So what you're saying is a unit of 3 basilisks firing directly still flip off of each other rather than scatter separately?

Yep

Or even 1 Thunder fire cannon.

**rigeld2**

Crablezworth wrote:
So what you're saying is a unit of 3 basilisks firing directly still flip off of each other rather than scatter separately?

Correct.

rigeld2 wrote:
just going to keep mocking people?

Keep the tone up and I'll have no problem reporting the abuse of the first rule. Calm down. I haven't mocked anyone.

Please do. I didn't start the tone - calling something absurd with no rules basis did. Which one of us did that?
You've been hostile from post one in this thread.

**Crablezworth**

Well it appears I've been playing barrage wrong for two editions.

**kingbobbito**

If it's difficult to accept the rules end of it, just consider the fluff end of things. Even when a basilisk is "firing directly", it's not pointing its gun straight at someone. It still fires at a high angle, and still hits your opponent from above. You just have a clear line of sight, so it's easier to pinpoint where you need to hit. You're not going to use the gun on your basilisk the same way you use the turret on a russ.

**Desubot**

kingbobbito wrote:
If it's difficult to accept the rules end of it, just consider the fluff end of things. Even when a basilisk is "firing directly", it's not pointing its gun straight at someone. It still fires at a high angle, and still hits your opponent from above. You just have a clear line of sight, so it's easier to pinpoint where you need to hit. You're not going to use the gun on your basilisk the same way you use the turret on a russ.

Im pretty sure he accepted that he was playing it wrong the whole time

probably should let this die.

**kingbobbito**

Desubot wrote:
kingbobbito wrote:
If it's difficult to accept the rules end of it, just consider the fluff end of things. Even when a basilisk is "firing directly", it's not pointing its gun straight at someone. It still fires at a high angle, and still hits your opponent from above. You just have a clear line of sight, so it's easier to pinpoint where you need to hit. You're not going to use the gun on your basilisk the same way you use the turret on a russ.

Im pretty sure he accepted that he was playing it wrong the whole time

probably should let this die.

My apologies. I saw that OP had only been given a rules explanation, and might still benefit from a fluff explanation. I tend to prefer fluff explanations when I disagree with something in the rules.

**Cheex**

Crablezworth wrote:
Guys barrage weapons are blast weapons with the ability to shoot out of los. The exceptions are literally "what;s different when shooting out of los"

If I was shooting large blast barrage weapon directly, why would it hit the top of a vehicle?

The problem is that you're assuming that "directly" means "aim the barrel straight at the enemy" (which, to be fair, is a reasonable assumption). In reality, it's probably more a case of being able to directly see the enemy, so are therefore able to make more accurate calculations to hit them, but still firing the shell upwards in an arc.

In game terms, you still use all of the rules for Barrage weapons, except for the bit that says "when firing indirectly", because that's what the rules tell you to do.

**Crablezworth**

no question I've been playing it wrong, I still think it's insane that firing at the rear armour of an ironclad dread 5 inches from the end of an earthshaker and always hitting side.

**insaniak**

Crablezworth wrote:
no question I've been playing it wrong, I still think it's insane that firing at the rear armour of an ironclad dread 5 inches from the end of an earthshaker and always hitting side.

Well, yes, it is... but the insane part is that you're firing with an artillery piece at a target 5 inches away.

That's just the game.