Is 40k getting too bloated?

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**vipoid**

jreilly89 wrote:

They're essentially free shots. It's not supposed to be a reward, it's a built in game mechanic.

Ok...and? This seems like a non-argument to me. It's like saying "random charges are in the game because they're in the game".

Also, if units can make free shots, why can they only do it whilst they're being charged? Why can't they just do it anyway?

jreilly89 wrote:
Also, if you can do make a sandwich in that time, wanna mail me one while I'm doing my Overwatch?

If you want to pay for the ingredients, postage and (very brief

) labour, sure.

Of course, even if I send it first class, I'd be surprised if it arrived before you finish overwatch.

**Lanrak**

Why not use a more interactive game turn , then you dont need over watch or any charge reactions.

If you allow shooting to do more than just kill stuff. EG block L.O.S with smoke/blind shells, and cause units to go to ground/pinned/ shaken.(Suppression.)
It can add far more tactical options without adding complication.
(Epic Armageddon has far fewer pages of rules , but delivers much more tactical play and better game balance than 40k.)

In fact just base the game play on warfare with an equal blend of mobility, firepower and assault.
Rather than use WHFB rules, which are all about mobility and assault.(With shooting firmly in the supporting role.)
This leaves 40k with over simplified core rules, that are massively restricting in terms of game play.And so rely on lots of additional rules to cover the rest of the game play , the WHFB core rules cant cope with.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

There is no bloat, just a wide range of diversity, and rules that can sort out almost any weird situation.

**Crablezworth**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
There is no bloat, just a wide range of diversity, and rules that can sort out almost any weird situation.

I'm not fat, I'm pleasantly plump.

**ImAGeek**

Crablezworth wrote:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
There is no bloat, just a wide range of diversity, and rules that can sort out almost any weird situation.

I'm not fat, I'm pleasantly plump.

It's glandular!

**Byte**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
There is no bloat, just a wide range of diversity, and rules that can sort out almost any weird situation.

I need your rulebook. Mine is missing the weird situation glossary.

**vipoid**

My rulebook solves weird situations by randomly determining a random table to roll on and determine the results.

**Byte**

vipoid wrote:
My rulebook solves weird situations by randomly determining a random table to roll on and determine the results.

Maybe I just need that supplement. Is there a provision for rerolls or is that random too?

**Talizvar**

Funny how Tau was used as an example for over-watch, fine un-intended example for bloat.
They have that "Special Rule" that not only the unit receiving the charge can fire as well, which makes them "special".

I was pretty excited that the special rules were being better defined in the main rule book.
To have one place were we all could literally be on the same page.

But no, GW still feels the need to make more special rules in further publications since where would we be without codex creep?

There was a time to get a reasonable handle on things buying the main rule book and a few codex's would be about all you need.
The variety of documents are a bit much to keep up with even with a somewhat reasonable disposable income of an adult.

"Too bloated" is a matter of perspective, I am sure many would rise to the challenge and find no problem at all keeping up to it.
I think the better question is "40k becoming more work than fun to play", rolling dice rather than making decisions, looking up rules in some 3+ documents for "special case" events, the larger armies to get ready and transport... it takes a certain kind of love for it to not view it as work.

X-wing has been a rather painful contrast for quick gaming gratification.
Battletech has a similar feel of being much less work but with tons of detail for every situation (Alphastrike as well...).

I LIKE my 40k models and keep plugging away at different groups of them, get games in and scratch my head at the next strange rule / army exploit, laugh at the 40k madness and roll buckets of dice. It is not for everyone and not to be taken on lightly as a new player.

**TheSilo**

Talizvar wrote:
Funny how Tau was used as an example for over-watch, fine un-intended example for bloat.
They have that "Special Rule" that not only the unit receiving the charge can fire as well, which makes them "special".

Tau overwatch is the worst. It never ends.

**Grimtuff**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
"Getting" would imply that it isn't well past that point already.

This. A thousand times this.

I mean, I had problems with the bloat in 6th Ed, but 7th has just shunted it into overdrive.

As a big fan of efficiency, the current state of 40K is downright maddening!

The personification of current 40k:

**AllSeeingSkink**

The problem with 40k bloat is they've just been building on the same system for the past 4 editions instead of doing a rewrite to simplify. Games have gotten larger AND have also gotten more complicated... but not complicated in a good way, complicated in a completely unnecessary way.

**Lanrak**

Complex game play is good. (Lots of meaningful player choices in game.)
Over complicated rules is bad.(Lots of different ways to cover a single in game interaction.)

40k has very little game play complexity, but far too much complication in the rules compared to any other war game in the top 20.

**ncshooter426**

I have been a fan of the IP since forever, but i must say - for a new player, it's waaaaay overly bloated.

I got back into it briefly at 6th ed, and now 7th ed (getting more serious). I got the basics down, but watching a few demo games with other new players, it's still painful.

It's a combination of rules being overly complicated, and the information being strewn all over the place. You still have to flip around to find some rule, or even dig around on the internet to get some basic stuff answered. So many different layers to it (which is good, for the advanced players -- not so good for everyone else).

**MWHistorian**

ncshooter426 wrote:
I have been a fan of the IP since forever, but i must say - for a new player, it's waaaaay overly bloated.

I got back into it briefly at 6th ed, and now 7th ed (getting more serious). I got the basics down, but watching a few demo games with other new players, it's still painful.

It's a combination of rules being overly complicated, and the information being strewn all over the place. You still have to flip around to find some rule, or even dig around on the internet to get some basic stuff answered. So many different layers to it (which is good, for the advanced players -- not so good for everyone else).

It's not good for the advanced player if the complications don't actually add anything to the game.

**gotbugs**

I think any game that's been around as long as 40K, or WFB runs the risk of becoming 'bloated'.
I found this to be incredibly apparent as I played collectible card games like Magic The Gathering, where eventually the only means of adding to the game is making bigger badder monsters, or new crazy rules. The problem with this (which is much the reason I don't play much of MTG anymore) is that if you don't have the newest set, you're outmatched, can't compete. I'm not a competitive gamer, and certainly not a competitive shopper which is where I think the emphasis lies.
I feel that (for me) this thread ties into some rumors I saw posted recently about the newest Chaos Codex. Rumor has it that the new codex will get away from devoted factions. No more Plague Marines, or Berzerkers, or the like. I'm a devoted Nurgle player, so this news upset me right away. But then I got to thinking to myself...
...self I said...
Maybe this is the reboot that the army, and indeed the game needs. By wiping the slate clean they are poised to build everything better than before. Is it wishful thinking? Perhaps.
But just like in comic books, sometimes the only way to right the wrongs made by multiple creative teams is to break everything down and start over.

That seems like a long winded answer (I'm guilty of ranting at times).
In short, I guess my response is. Yes. 40K is becoming bloated, but I am holding on to hopes that the remedy is in the works already.

**ncshooter426**

MWHistorian wrote:

It's not good for the advanced player if the complications don't actually add anything to the game.

Agreed, although some folks just like complication for the sake of being complicated.

I really like Infinity's rules, although it's a much smaller scale warfare than 40K. Hell, I actually like the WHFB rules more than 40K too, but that's just me.

**gotbugs**

I first started playing 40K in 3rd edition, and I was actually pretty pleased with 6th edition. I have not picked up 7th, so I can't speak to how the rules have changed but as I understand there is no MAJOR shift here. I don't think all of the supplements are necessary to throw down a game at all. I prefer to spend my time learning the ins and outs of my own army, not so much every opposing army I may face. I understand why some do that, but for me it takes away from valuable painting and modelling time. lol.
Apocalypse, Cities of Death, and so on, are not mandatory components of 40K so I don't think they should be a factor in determining whats necessary to get started at all.

**Talizvar**

Hmmmm.... valid point.
Say GW thinks "Reboot! good idea!".
Then everyone will have to buy new stuff!!
I wonder if they would survive the round of rage-quit.

I am unsure logistically that could even be considered an option.
Without being able to make prior publications work with a new system it would take too long or run the risk of others not able to play the new system.
I know some game systems have come up with a "converter" algorithm to make a model work under old rules (thinking Battletech :Alphastrike).

I dunno, a rulebook and a reference source like some stat-card or codex should be all you need to play your end of a game.
Cards are handy for your opponent to review what your unit can do so I think of it as a best practice.

I think GW has a whole lot wrong if you need more than the above reference documents in order to get a game in.

**gotbugs**

I agree that it's a gamble they're taking. Particularly with how close 6th and 7th were to one another. It's just proof that there were glaring issues or oversights with 6th. Again, I'm not a competitive gamer so these oversights were clearly lost to me.
That said however, FAQ's are typically released to help convert older codeces into newer rules.
Point being whether or not the game rules are bloated, I think it's a necesary factor in developing such a far spanning game. A better question to be presented would perhaps be; Are there too many factions involved in the 40k universe? This is why many of the funky rules originate, no?

**Melevolence**

gotbugs wrote:
I agree that it's a gamble they're taking. Particularly with how close 6th and 7th were to one another. It's just proof that there were glaring issues or oversights with 6th. Again, I'm not a competitive gamer so these oversights were clearly lost to me.
That said however, FAQ's are typically released to help convert older codeces into newer rules.
Point being whether or not the game rules are bloated, I think it's a necesary factor in developing such a far spanning game. A better question to be presented would perhaps be; Are there too many factions involved in the 40k universe? This is why many of the funky rules originate, no?

I don't think it has to do with just factions, but with the various amounts of unit types too, all of which combine into a mixture of chaos that doesn't even appease the Chaos Gods themselves. I mean, we have So many different variants of just the same thing. Infantry (Jump, Jet Pack, Bike, Jet Bike) and many of those subtypes apply to Monstrous Creatures as well, but with small tweaks. Then there are Walkers and Super Heavy Walkers. Tanks and Super Heavy Tanks. Fliers. Vehicles (Fast, normal, open topped, assault) and it creates so much mess.

Normally, I am a man who loves variety. I really do. But a lot of the choices in the game are not even really variety. There are blatantly good or bad options, which means there aren't really that many options or variety at all. I'd prefer them to condense some things, or if they HAVE to have this many different things, really MAKE each one have a valid use and not just a waste. But then we get special upon special. Just an example is how Tau's jump infantry are far superior and they have a reason to take them. My Ork jump infantry are usually only OK options and for most Marine players, they are better than OK but still often not taken due to just...better options. You'd think jet pack dudes of any kind would be superior...but the game doesn't ALLOW them to be.

I dunno. I rant. I don't think it's just the amount of factions. The general rules themselves need a real overhaul. I feel factions SHOULD have their special snowflake rules, as it gives you an incentive to use that army, and those special snowflake rules should be a bit more flavorful.

**lustigjh**

kodi wrote:
The only player-friendly solution would be a unified and completely digital regularly updated codex/ruleset library. It's 2014, relying on printed media for game rules is archaic (though no doubt profitable).

I know gw has to make money and stay in business because that's what companies do, but I wish they could find a more agreeable business model for their *rules*. The pricing of their minis doesn't bother me at all really.

No thanks. I don't want to have to stare at a bright screen to read fluff or rules in my spare time and I don't want to have to buy a tablet or bring my laptop to games to not have to find rules on my phone. Digital books have no appeal for me.

**Byte**

Digital game media can be pretty handy. Prefer a hard copy rulebook though.

**morgoth**

A comprehensive all in one ruleset with a good search function would be nice.

**koooaei**

morgoth wrote:
A comprehensive all in one ruleset with a good search function

Spoiler:

**morgoth**

Yeah, that doesn't really qualify as a good search function though.

Plus it's in latin and I'm part of the people who took Greek in school.

**vipoid**

koooaei wrote:
morgoth wrote:
A comprehensive all in one ruleset with a good search function

Spoiler:

Don't forgot Volumes 2-14.

**koooaei**

vipoid wrote:
koooaei wrote:
morgoth wrote:
A comprehensive all in one ruleset with a good search function

Spoiler:

Don't forgot Volumes 2-14.

And then the next edition hits.

**vipoid**

This is perhaps something of a minor point in terms of bloat, but things like the Eversor Assassin annoy me.

One of his weapons has Fleshbane and Shred. Why? Why not just say 'hits from this weapon wound automatically'? Do we really need to faff around with dice just for that 1/36 chance that he won't wound?

**AllSeeingSkink**

vipoid wrote:
This is perhaps something of a minor point in terms of bloat, but things like the Eversor Assassin annoy me.

One of his weapons has Fleshbane and Shred. Why? Why not just say 'hits from this weapon wound automatically'? Do we really need to faff around with dice just for that 1/36 chance that he won't wound?

But think of all the joy you will miss out on flipping through different books to figure out what he does and then rolling all those extra almost pointless dice during the game.