[1500] - CSM - Upgrading from 500 Points

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**robse100**

Hey Guys!

While I was getting Tyranids and my upgrade for Orks, I'd also like to get 1000 extra points for CSM now. What do you think?

Spoiler:

**Captyn_Bob**

Well I like the defiler but its really points inefficient. Av12 just dies too quick.
On that note..
If you take one maulerfiend, you better take another one, the first one will always die.

**vermisean**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Well I like the defiler but its really points inefficient. Av12 just dies too quick.
On that note..
If you take one maulerfiend, you better take another one, the first one will always die.

Have to agree with Captyn_Bob here! In my experience, the Maulerfiend takes a lot of fire... Something about a giant, tendril-y walker marching through enemy lines sparks attention.

I do like Defilers (particularly with the cool loadouts), but depending on your opponents, av12 will get popped! Though I suppose with lances and such, anything could be considered av12

I absolutely love raptors, and a melta squad is awesome (I understand some people's concerns about them, particularly with DSing and range, but I have had some great luck with them)!

I also tend to take a havoc missile launcher on my rhinos, which has worked well for me, but it really is up to you on that one!

Do you know what sort of opponents you'll be up against?

I dig this list!

**robse100**

Well, you guys are right...It's just not durable enough. Also I was thinking about a second Maulerfiend anyways!

Havoc Launcher on the Rhino definitely seems like a good idea, I think I'll do that! Also I'm pleased that you like the list

What do you guys think about Hellbrutes? I've never played them, but I really like them style-wise, so I was always considering them...

**Captyn_Bob**

Hellbrutes have the same av12 problem.

The dataslate of hellbrute formations is quite good tho.

**robse100**

Ah, you're right, I totally overlooked that. The thing with them, though, is: They're only half the cost of the Defiler, aren't they?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm gonna play against my Orks or Tyranids since I play mostly against my gf

**vermisean**

Gotta love the havoc! Adds a little extra firepower. And I like the reroll on dozer blades as well (but I see you've got that!)

I definitely love the Helbrute model, especially with the different heads for each Chaos God!

I have had success with the trio of Helbrutes DS formation, Mayhem Pack, and I haven't tried the 5 Helbrute formation so I can't speak to that.

Deepstriking into enemy territory with them has been nice to avoid rolling a Crazed where they can't reach anything anyways. Plus, IIRC, you have a nice, manageable start after the DS because you don't have to roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive from reserves

I don't think I would take only one on its own though.

Edit: I am not 100% sure on the not rolling for Crazed when they arrive from DS thing - seems like the internet doesn't agree on this one either haha So, to be safe, you may want to.

**vermisean**

Oops double post, sorry! (Not sure how to delete it)

**robse100**

I was considering the formation with 2 Cultist units and 1 Hellbrute, so he can sacrifice them for a 3+ save - any experiences?

**vermisean**

Haven't used that one, but it is worth a try! If you do, I would be interested in hearing how it goes!
Lookong it over though, I do like the possibilities it unlocks!

**robse100**

Question is where I'm gonna fit that in with that list:

Spoiler:

I really have no clue what to cut...^^

**Captyn_Bob**

Well you already have a hellbrute, so you need to find 100 pts for more cultists.

I would almost certainly cut the warpsmith. He's not really doing anything for you.
or-
Heavy trimming of unneeded stuff.
Drop,
VOTLW - 5
MOK - 10
Flamer, - 5
Lightning claw - 15
Power fist - 25
lascannon -20 (or downgrade to auto)
missile- 15 (or downgrade to auto)
powerfist - 25

Oh and, the baleflamer is so much more useful than the hades. I know its for AA but still.

**robse100**

Seems quite logical - also I'm not really sure if it's better to cut some of the small unneeded stuff (and then be able to cut the Warpsmith for sth else maybe) or cut the WS. Also, don't I need only 1 extra Cultist unit? Or is it 3 Cultist units + Hellbrute?

**Captyn_Bob**

The 2 cultist + Helbrute is a formation. This sits outside your normal Combined Arms Detachment force org chart.

So you would still need to fulfill your two compulsory troop choices.
It would probably be better to do this with two units of marines in rhinos, if you are taking the hellcult as well. Otherwise you would have two units of fearless cultists and one which wasn't.

Also note that the hellcult cultists won't get Objective Secured.

**robse100**

Oh yeah, you're right. Seems somewhat hard to manage without removing the Warpsmith as well as the unnecessary upgrades. Which brings me to the question if Hellbrutes are that good, even with Hellcult.

**Son of aY3ti**

robse100 wrote:
Oh yeah, you're right. Seems somewhat hard to manage without removing the Warpsmith as well as the unnecessary upgrades. Which brings me to the question if Hellbrutes are that good, even with Hellcult.

I run HelBrutes in bigger games. I have Tried the Hellcult and really didn't like it. It was a slow way to get the HelBrute up into the action. If I run Helbrutes I like to run the Mayhem Pack. I feel that a single helbrute coming from the other side of the table is inefficient. You lose control of it quickly. With the HelCult it also gets wiped by Blasts to fast.

**vermisean**

Son of aY3ti wrote:
robse100 wrote:
Oh yeah, you're right. Seems somewhat hard to manage without removing the Warpsmith as well as the unnecessary upgrades. Which brings me to the question if Hellbrutes are that good, even with Hellcult.

I run HelBrutes in bigger games. I have Tried the Hellcult and really didn't like it. It was a slow way to get the HelBrute up into the action. If I run Helbrutes I like to run the Mayhem Pack. I feel that a single helbrute coming from the other side of the table is inefficient. You lose control of it quickly. With the HelCult it also gets wiped by Blasts to fast.

This was my thinking as well. Mayhem Pack is nice and... Mayhem-y!

Truthfully, I don't run Helbrutes very often, though like I said, I love those models! It's tough to run an efficient force with some of the awesome looking bits and weapons though

!

I like the switch from Chaos Lord to Sorcerer as well. Wasn't sure if you were thinking of avoiding psychic business with your previous list, with the MoK on the Lord.

I do think that flamer is going to help you with any swarms you face (and Wall of Death is just such a beautiful display of power!), but if you do want to save some points there, it is understandable.

I like to run 2 sets of CSM generally as my troops, or, more often, a squad of CSM and one of Thousand Sons (Yeah, Ahriman!!

), but depending on the points it can be tough.

**robse100**

Yeah, the Sorcerer is just more efficient. You can't get that General into CC without a bike or a juggernaut which you need extra support for.

2 Units of CSM would be nice, I'm afraid it does not fit into my point budget anymore.

Hellbrutes seem to be backed up for later, I think running a Mayhem Squad is nice - but that's 300 points extra, so... Rather with 2k then

**vermisean**

Exactly! That Sorc will help you out a ton!
Haha fair enough on the points! No matter the limit, it never feels like enough!

Good call on the Brutes!

**robse100**

Okay, I think I got the final list together!

Spoiler:

I really wanted to get that Terminator Lord, because he can just be so wrecking, so I got the Land Raider which also delivers some extra fire power

Strategy:

- Chaos Terminator Lord with Terminator Squad into Land Raider
- Warp Smith and CSM into Rhino and then go with the Maulerfiends
- Cultists as a meat shield for the havocs
- Heldrake for AA
- Raptors for securing objectives

Not sure if I should take the Plasmas or Meltas for the Raptors, though. I think Meltas would do better against vehicles, but with 2 Maulerfiends and Havocs, I don't know if it's necessary.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Personally it depends on what role you want your raptors to do.

I'm confused as to why you don't have the baleflamer on the drake?

Also, the Lords load out isn't optimal. Why not take the axe of blind fury as he's a khorne Lord and take the burning brand. Then he becomes an absolute beast....

**robse100**

Heldrake was just a mistake.

Reason for not more on the Chaos Lord is points, simple as that.