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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The problem is compounded by the irrational hero-worship that has been on display recently, because these people can't accept the fact that he was a seriously flawed man and any criticism on the film is an attack on Kyle (which is ridiculous).


I'd take it a step further and say that it seems people are using Chris Kyle as a proxy for America, even, or at least our intervention in Iraq.

The jingosism aspects are how the movie simplified everything about the war. We're the good guys! Yay! Nothing about our purpose, at least in the film, is muddled or unclear. Our enemies, on the other hand, are savages! One and all. No middle ground. If an Iraqi is being nice to you, it's just because he's setting up an ambush later, because they're all savages.

I mean, a character in the movie literally says that the military is the watchdogs, over the rest of the sheep. You guys who don't see the jingoism - don't you think that's maybe a little simplistic?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 14:10:12


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Just for the sake of stirring the pot:

Moore claims his beliefs come from what his family taught him growing up based on his family's past experiences. How many people here hold beliefs they refuse to question because that's what their family taught them?

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 Ouze wrote:


The jingosism aspects are how the movie simplified everything about the war. We're the good guys! Yay! Nothing about our purpose, at least in the film, is muddled or unclear. Our enemies, on the other hand, are savages! One and all. No middle ground. If an Iraqi is being nice to you, it's just because he's setting up an ambush later, because they're all savages.

I mean, a character in the movie literally says that the military is the watchdogs, over the rest of the sheep. You guys who don't see the jingoism - don't you think that's maybe a little simplistic?


As I said earlier on I don’t know what movie you saw but it must have been a different one to me. There was nothing ‘clear cut’ about the films portrayal of the Iraq war, nor does it show all Iraqis as savages. In fact there is a critical scene where Kyle fails in his attempts to protect an friendly Iraqi family who tried to help the Americans and where murdered for doing so.

I think the film is very sympathetic towards Kyle and other veterans like him and praises them for their willingness to do very dirty work, but I saw nothing in the film that could be construed as support for the Iraq war.

Supporting veterans =/= Jingoism.

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 LuciusAR wrote:
 Ouze wrote:


The jingosism aspects are how the movie simplified everything about the war. We're the good guys! Yay! Nothing about our purpose, at least in the film, is muddled or unclear. Our enemies, on the other hand, are savages! One and all. No middle ground. If an Iraqi is being nice to you, it's just because he's setting up an ambush later, because they're all savages.

I mean, a character in the movie literally says that the military is the watchdogs, over the rest of the sheep. You guys who don't see the jingoism - don't you think that's maybe a little simplistic?


As I said earlier on I don’t know what movie you saw but it must have been a different one to me. There was nothing ‘clear cut’ about the films portrayal of the Iraq war, nor does it show all Iraqis as savages. In fact there is a critical scene where Kyle fails in his attempts to protect an friendly Iraqi family who tried to help the Americans and where murdered for doing so.

I think the film is very sympathetic towards Kyle and other veterans like him and praises them for their willingness to do very dirty work, but I saw nothing in the film that could be construed as support for the Iraq war.

Supporting veterans =/= Jingoism.


It is easy to make a movie sympathetic when you show lies and whitewash the foundation of fraud that the story is based upon. I know people who do not appreciate a self-proclaimed serial murder of Americans being the 'face' of their experience in Afghanistan and war veterans.

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 Ouze wrote:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The problem is compounded by the irrational hero-worship that has been on display recently, because these people can't accept the fact that he was a seriously flawed man and any criticism on the film is an attack on Kyle (which is ridiculous).


I'd take it a step further and say that it seems people are using Chris Kyle as a proxy for America, even, or at least our intervention in Iraq.

The jingosism aspects are how the movie simplified everything about the war. We're the good guys! Yay! Nothing about our purpose, at least in the film, is muddled or unclear. Our enemies, on the other hand, are savages! One and all. No middle ground. If an Iraqi is being nice to you, it's just because he's setting up an ambush later, because they're all savages.

I mean, a character in the movie literally says that the military is the watchdogs, over the rest of the sheep. You guys who don't see the jingoism - don't you think that's maybe a little simplistic?

Okay... I'm trying to stay out of this thread a bit until I see the movie, read his book more and read more about that libel case.

I don't see it as jingoism...

However, I wanna ask this:
Can't Kyle be appreciated as a Hero™, even though he was a deeply flawed man?

Your point about that the Military is the watchdog, over the sheeps... I think it's misplaced. It isn't so much that "We're the Good Guys!"... it's more that "These are MY guys", as in fellow troops/Americans. In the book I'm reading... Kyle recalls what his dad taught him about the world being divided between sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs who defend the former against the latter... after Kyle enlists, he keeps going back simply to protect his fellow combat troops. That was the motivation every time he pulled the trigger; not sport, not glory, and not politics. That's an admirable trait.

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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
How many people here hold beliefs they refuse to question because that's what their family taught them?
Probably quite a lot -- including, but not limited to, everyone who still believes in whatever religion they were born into. Religions are all fairly unbelievable from the outside. No one believes that sacrificing a goat to Hera, or Odin, or Ra will really bring a better harvest next year, it's just silly stories. Yet when it comes their parent's religion people take it all seriously. Even when it clearly contradicts reason and scientific observation, they go into denial and try to delude themselves by "reinterpreting" the scripture to fit, rather than admit that is just wrong because it's made up nonsense. Most sane people would disregard their parents religions as easily as they disregard other religions such as Scientology, if they were really able to be objective about it, but they usually aren't, same is true for politics, a lot of people vote the way their parents did.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/20 16:41:09


 
   
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 whembly wrote:
However, I wanna ask this:
Can't Kyle be appreciated as a Hero™, even though he was a deeply flawed man?


Of course. Chris Kyle did a great many heroic things. He saved countless American lives... which is where the movie, in my opinion, slid into jingoism, by removing all that complexity.

It might have been better to have challenged our perceptions of what American heroism is, rather than giving him the Jessica Lynch \ Pat Tillman larger than life icon status.

Anyway, that's my interpretation. If you got something different out of it, I don't think that's any less valid, that's the nature of film.

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 Ouze wrote:
 whembly wrote:
However, I wanna ask this:
Can't Kyle be appreciated as a Hero™, even though he was a deeply flawed man?


Of course. Chris Kyle did a great many heroic things. He saved countless American lives... which is where the movie, in my opinion, slid into jingoism, by removing all that complexity.

It might have been better to have challenged our perceptions of what American heroism is, rather than giving him the Jessica Lynch \ Pat Tillman larger than life icon status.

Anyway, that's my interpretation. If you got something different out of it, I don't think that's any less valid, that's the nature of film.

Cool. I'll probably finish the book in the next few days and see the movie this weekend. I don't want to make anymore definitive assessments until doing so.

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It's definitely worth watching. I disagree with elements of how it was presented but was pretty good to watch; the only issues I have with the actual execution was the obviously fake baby*, and Sienna Miller's acting was a little wooden. Brad Cooper definitely delivered.

*I didn't realize it until my wife started laughing and pointed it out, so YMMV.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 16:45:02


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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I've no desire to see it myself.

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Michael Moore was already someone I despised over the years, This makes me hate him even more. I was a sniper. I was deployed as a sniper. That time is long past, but I am still proud of my role.

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I think the "kill from far away" thing has always been an interesting subject and I've heard a few different thoughts on that. On one hand I have heard the "it's easy to kill people from far away while you are nice and safe" argument, but from my understanding snipers also often operate largely alone without a squad to back them up right away of needed which makes me think that there is also a larger risk by not being able to operate in numbers. I could be completely wrong about this of course.

A more modern evolution on this could be the drone operators. If I remember right there was talk about a medal for the operators that would have a higher order than medals you could only earn while actually being there, which was changed (or scrapped) because of backlash.

Drone operators, like snipers, have an important role and save lives from far away. Does that make them less brave than other soldiers? People probably have the same argument about the guys sitting in a missile silo waiting to push the button.

The subject of Kyle is an interesting issue altogether. I think there are probably a lot of people that are better suited to become the face of "stuff current veterans are going through" than him. But he got the limelight, for better or worse.
   
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 Ouze wrote:
It's definitely worth watching. I disagree with elements of how it was presented but was pretty good to watch; the only issues I have with the actual execution was the obviously fake baby*, and Sienna Miller's acting was a little wooden. Brad Cooper definitely delivered.

*I didn't realize it until my wife started laughing and pointed it out, so YMMV.

Here's a story on that fake baby:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/american-snipers-fake-baby-mocked-764702
“Shooting in California poses some challenges when employing a real baby given the state’s strict laws (part of the movie was shot in Los Angeles). Infants must be at least 15 days old, and babies from that age up to six months can be employed for only one period of two consecutive hours in any given day. Moreover, that time frame has to be between 9:30-11:30 a.m. or from 2:30-4:30 p.m., and one studio teacher along with one nurse must be on set during filming.

According to American Sniper screenwriter/executive producer Jason Hall, there’s actually a good explanation as to why fake babies were used on the film. In response to journalist Mark Harris’ tweet “That plastic baby in American Sniper is going to be rationalized by Eastwood auteur cultists until the end of days,” Hall replied: “hate to ruin the fun but real baby #1 showed up with a fever. Real baby #2 was no show. (Clint voice) Gimme the doll, kid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 17:32:40


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 Ouze wrote:
It's definitely worth watching. I disagree with elements of how it was presented but was pretty good to watch; the only issues I have with the actual execution was the obviously fake baby*, and Sienna Miller's acting was a little wooden. Brad Cooper definitely delivered.

*I didn't realize it until my wife started laughing and pointed it out, so YMMV.


Yeah the girl I saw it with pointed it out. It was /really/ obvious. I took Sienna Miller's acting in a positive light, assuming she was trying to communicate the slight "Shut Down" people under that kind of strain find. Cooper delivered so reliably they need to change his name to UPS. I really want to know what in the hell they fed him leading up to this movie, he was never a huge guy and he bulked up /hard/ for this movie.

Conker, as a subject matter expert what are your opinions about how Kyle's role as a sniper are depicted? Obviously his experience will be unique from yours, but does it match up to reality as you'd see it?

Regarding the sheepdogs line and Jingoism, the Sheepdogs theory is very common and popular amongst military and law enforcement, I wouldn't call it jingoism, because it's not justifying military action or an extremist war monger desire. I'm relatively anti-war since getting out, and anti-intervention, I still have my sheepdog gear. It's not really about good or bad in the end, it's about those willing to step up and out and protect others and put their lives on the line doing so.

The jingosism aspects are how the movie simplified everything about the war. We're the good guys! Yay! Nothing about our purpose, at least in the film, is muddled or unclear. Our enemies, on the other hand, are savages! One and all. No middle ground. If an Iraqi is being nice to you, it's just because he's setting up an ambush later, because they're all savages.


See I think that's where you're wrong. One I don't think it depicted the Iraqis like that, but more importantly I think the avoidance of the "big picture" of the Iraq war is intentional and right. For soldiers, sailors and Marines, the big picture never mattered, for the guys that were over there, the kind of thing depicted in the movie, going out every day in the sand and gak, mixed sniper fire, RPGs, ambushes, VBIEDs, that was just the day to day, our purpose was clear, you people, and it was you people, because Americans overwhelmingly supported Iraq and Afghanistan when we kicked this crap off, sent us overseas and told us to sort this gak out. It wasn't our call, the reasons didn't matter to us because it's not like we can just say "feth you I quit!" and we wouldn't want to, because then, like Kyle's own guilt complex, we wouldn't be there for our buddies when the gak hits the high speed impeller.

I'd agree that people on both sides of this little discussion are using Chris Kyle as a symbol of our intervention in Iraq, and on both sides that's a dismal failure of thinking and logic at best. I notice the bulk of these two sides are civilians (in the wide general sense of this argument, not dakka specifically) with little knowledge or understanding of the war outside of sound bites on the News, the occasional documentary and "The Hurt Locker".

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Is this the same logic of officers refusing to use guns because it was unsporting, rather preferring to charge at the enemy with a sword (and being riddled with bullets)?

Is this an argument over the right for the enemy to be able to fight back? So when tanks are sent in against some infantry is that cowardice? What if the sniper is the one fighting a stronger force and it would be suicide for them to engage them face to face?

On my first point though I'm reminded of a story about a soldier with a revolver fighting another with a muzzle loader. They both let off shots and missed, and instead of the revolver armed guy just shooting the other one he allowed him to reload. Honor before reason and what not.

But back to my other point. This logic runs along the lines of offering the enemy a fair fight. Ah, war isn't a nice friendly game. Blow the hell out an area to kill an enemy and the people back home will only care that some of their own soldiers aren't being reported dead on the news because they didn't have to duke it out in a fire fight.
   
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 d-usa wrote:

A more modern evolution on this could be the drone operators. If I remember right there was talk about a medal for the operators that would have a higher order than medals you could only earn while actually being there, which was changed (or scrapped) because of backlash.

Drone operators, like snipers, have an important role and save lives from far away. Does that make them less brave than other soldiers? People probably have the same argument about the guys sitting in a missile silo waiting to push the button.
.


I'd say it's a very different relationship, while Snipers are removed from their targets, it's almost an intimate relationship, you see them, quite closely, and sometimes observe targets for days, while enduring incredibly harsh conditions. You seem the target, so very, very close.... and end them with the whisper of a finger on a trigger. Their personal angel of death. It's an even more direct and personal method of killing then many regular grunts will experience. The endurance and skill required to be a sniper are why they are given the respect they are.

Drone operators work hard as well, but pressing a button to launch a smart munition will never have the same intimacy as a sniper or a grunt's engagement, it's no different from being a pilot honestly, except the drone operator is sitting in a comfortable, air conditioned control center,can get up and stretch, piss, get some coffee, and in many cases, goes home to his family every day after work. (A lot of our operations centers for drones are in the U.S.)

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So... what did Moore say that was actually wrong?

Someone explain it to me, because frankly from my POV most of the hate mongering ITT seems to stem more from just disliking Moore in general than any specific inaccuracy he made in his statement. To wit, if my uncle had been killed by a sniper and I had been raised to dislike snipers my entire life... I'd probably dislike snipers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/20 17:52:15


 
   
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Snipers aren't cowards flat out.

They often operate alone without support. They can expect no mercy if captured. They actually see their target in high detail, its a very personal way of killing.

It takes balls to be a sniper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 17:51:44


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
So... what did Moore say that was actually wrong?

Someone explain it to me, because frankly from my POV most of the hate mongering ITT seems to stem more from just disliking Moore in general than any specific inaccuracy he made in his statement. To wit, if my uncle had been killed by a sniper and I had been raised to dislike snipers my entire life... I'd probably dislike snipers.

That snipers are cowards.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Snipers aren't cowards flat out.

They often operate alone without support. They can expect no mercy if captured. They actually see their target in high detail, its a very personal way of killing.

It takes balls to be a sniper.
It takes balls to be any kind of front-line soldier, I imagine. We've lost over a thousand US troops in the war, and the super-majority of them were not snipers. See my edit btw, I tried to make the post sound less inflammatory.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/20 17:55:41


 
   
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 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Snipers aren't cowards flat out.

They often operate alone without support. They can expect no mercy if captured. They actually see their target in high detail, its a very personal way of killing.

It takes balls to be a sniper.
It takes balls to be any kind of front-line soldier, I imagine. See my edit btw, I tried to make the post sound less inflammatory.

It takes balls to be in the military... period.

Spoken by a guy who has his own body guards.

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'murica! etc.

I don't agree with Moore's opinion, personally, but I think the outrage levied in response on display is pretty disproportionate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 18:10:44


 
   
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 whembly wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
So... what did Moore say that was actually wrong?

Someone explain it to me, because frankly from my POV most of the hate mongering ITT seems to stem more from just disliking Moore in general than any specific inaccuracy he made in his statement. To wit, if my uncle had been killed by a sniper and I had been raised to dislike snipers my entire life... I'd probably dislike snipers.

That snipers are cowards.


He's saying his uncle was shot by one in WWII in the Pacific.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Frazzled wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
So... what did Moore say that was actually wrong?

Someone explain it to me, because frankly from my POV most of the hate mongering ITT seems to stem more from just disliking Moore in general than any specific inaccuracy he made in his statement. To wit, if my uncle had been killed by a sniper and I had been raised to dislike snipers my entire life... I'd probably dislike snipers.

That snipers are cowards.


He's saying his uncle was shot by one in WWII in the Pacific.


And that snipers aren't "heroes".
My uncle killed by sniper in WW2. We were taught snipers were cowards. Will shoot you in the back. Snipers aren't heroes. And invaders are worse

— Michael Moore (@MMFlint) January 18, 2015

Hmm. I never tweeted 1word bout AmericanSniper/ChrisKyle. I said my uncle killed by sniper in WWII; only cowards would do that 2 him, others

— Michael Moore (@MMFlint) January 19, 2015

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 18:26:39


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't agree with Moore's opinion, personally, but I think the outrage levied in response on display is pretty disproportionate.


Well, Michael Moore's like Bieber - no one admits to liking him, and yet inexplicably he's always good for page hits.

Hmm. I never tweeted 1word bout AmericanSniper/ChrisKyle


Yeah, and Chris Kyle didn't initially name "Scruff Face", and yet we all knew who he meant, you disingenuous toolbox. You want to say inflammatory stuff, fine, but own up to it bro.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/20 18:28:48


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 Ouze wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't agree with Moore's opinion, personally, but I think the outrage levied in response on display is pretty disproportionate.


Well, Michael Moore's like Bieber - no one admits to liking him, and yet inexplicably he's always good for page hits.

It's because he's lionized by the lefties in this country.

Even though most of his works are largely devoid of facts.

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Well Michael more is a gakker. Do you really expect from him? He's one of those people I feel uncomfortable when I agree with him.

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