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Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Jihadin wrote:
They made an attempt to blow up twin Towers in 1993

Edit

Twin Towers.


They decided they needed a bigger boom (too soon?)

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 LordofHats wrote:
And before that it was Colonialism. Basically the only way to avoid their ire is to be isolationist (which in this modern age of globalism is suicidal) and even then, it's really easy for some dictator to stand up to the local mob and say "It's not my fault your life sucks. Blame those westerns for sabotaging us because they're afraid of our awesomeness and hate our religion!"
Yeah, that pretty much describes NK.

We had long wars with Vietnam and Japan which didn't really go anywhere good, then eventually ended up winning them over passively with capitalism. I don't think war was ever the best tool in our box. Groups like AQ know this which is why they are so against capitalism and western culture. I read the leader of Boko Haram even refuses to believe the Earth is a sphere, western ideas are so repulsive to him. I think it's an almost Darwinian response to cultural invasion. Extremism endures and spreads because it is the only thing crazy enough to resist.

We were already targets for attack. I see you didn't even glimpse half the links I gave. If you look back the US was on the receiving end of some serious terrorist action from the Mid East once every five or six years since 1980 up to 2001. Terrorists there have been terrorizing each other on a weekly basis for ages. We didn't create them so much as got more of their attention and started paying much more attention to them.
I don't deny that there were radicals and attacks prior to the wars,

I'm arguing its so bad it can't really be made worse. When someone hates you so much they go across a 3000 mile ocean to crash planes into buildings, there's not really anyway for it to get worse. That's pretty much maximum worseness.
I think it can get a lot worse for us, and I think it probably will before long. I feel something very bad is about to happen.
   
Made in us
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USA

 Smacks wrote:
We had long wars with Vietnam and Japan which didn't really go anywhere good, then eventually ended up winning them over passively with capitalism.


I'm not sure how we passively won against Japan XD

I don't think war was ever the best tool in our box.


As I continually try to explain to people, what is best is rarely what happens. All the powers that be don't care about what is best. They care about what is best for them, which means that what is best for us, others, the world, etc is rarely (if ever) what we will get. Imperfect worlds produce, nay require, imperfect solutions. Sad fact of life. We're stuck with war, like cats are stuck with hairballs.

I read the leader of Boko Haram even refuses to believe the Earth is a sphere, western ideas are so repulsive to him..


Oh yes. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is one of the most read books throughout the Middle East, despite continually being proven time and time again to be a hoax, and probably half the world's Holocaust deinalists live in the Mid East these days XD. If they weren't violent radicals, we could lump them in with the young earth creationists and have a laugh

I feel something very bad is about to happen.


In the real world something bad is always about to happen (imo ). No point constantly trying to avoid it. It's going to come kick your ass no matter what you do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/22 01:15:10


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 LordofHats wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
They made an attempt to blow up twin Towers in 1993

Edit

Twin Towers.


They decided they needed a bigger boom (too soon?)


Negative. Your good. Just shows how far out they can plan and the creativity they can come up with to accomplish their goals. War/No War it wouldn't matter if one's country gets attacked by these Organizations/Individuals motivated to perform a attack of some nature (Lone Wolf title I would rather not tarnish for the Space Wolves) Crap going to happen regardless because of one's country action, commitment, view point, support, whatever have you because your against "Them" and what they stand for.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 d-usa wrote:
By definition either one can do both.

A sniper could easily be someone who indiscriminately kills civilians and a suicide bomber could use precision to eliminate a specific target.

"Sniper" and "suicide bomber" is just a role, neither of which is inherently good or bad. A sniper could be the soldier doing what a soldier does, or it can be the bad guy just randomly killing people for the heck of it. A suicide bomber can be the terrorist blowing up innocent people at the market, or it could be the wounded US service member that tells his buddies to go on and holds on to all the grenades ready to pull the pin as soon as the bad guys come by to blow himself up as well as them.

How each term is perceived will depend on personal experiences.

I'm uncertain as to which "definition" you are working off. If it is the line that follows the underlined then your definitions seem at odds with the traditional role of a sniper, and your assertion that a suicide bomber "could use precision to eliminate a specific target" seems factually incorrect.
A sniper's traditional role is infiltrating, intelligence gathering, engaging high value targets, and/or providing overwatch for friendly forces. "[R]andomly killing people" is a waste of a strategic resource, and if civilians are being shot at then that's a war crime. Also I don't recall there being (m)any reports of suicide bombers only killing a single individual as their objective and causing absolutely no collateral damage.

 
   
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We dealt with both types. They're not fun.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Also I don't recall there being (m)any reports of suicide bombers only killing a single individual as their objective and causing absolutely no collateral damage.


This story 'springs to mind' for some reason...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/10/taliban-suicide-bomb-rectum-assassinate-afghanistan-spy-chief_n_3414249.html

Jokes aside, the target survived, but it appears to have been a fairly precise attack.

Spoiler:
You do have to wonder if it was preceded by the words "pull my finger"
   
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 Smacks wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
I think we'd love regime change in Iran and NK. Not sure what you're saying. DO you want us to attack NK? I thought we were bad. We're not bad now?
I'm just pointing out what nonsense "fighting for freedom" is, since we only seem to be attacking people that aren't enough of a threat to fight back. All things considered I think invading NK would be an even worse idea than invading Iraq.

 whembly wrote:
Because Warâ„¢ is hell and the only way to win Warâ„¢ is to kill the enemy by any measures as possible.
Which would imply that suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic. I don't know why it is such a sore point for comparisons on here, is it just the terrorist connotations? Everyone thought it heroic at the end of Independence Day when an American flies his plane into the enemy HQ. I guess it's all about perspective.


Strapping bombs to kids and sending them to kill civilians, as often happens over there is legitimate?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Smacks wrote:
We had long wars with Vietnam and Japan which didn't really go anywhere good, then eventually ended up winning them over passively with capitalism.


I'm not sure how we passively won against Japan XD


I think a lot of us are trying to figure the logic behind Smack's statement on that one, especially the ones who had family in that theatre of war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 04:24:05


 
   
Made in us
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USA

Smack could be referring to the gradual collapse of Japanese Isolationism in the 19th century, but I'm not sure XD

   
Made in us
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Still trying to wrap my head around that a sniper is the same as suicide bomber. He's "Clueless" keeps popping up.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
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Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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 Jihadin wrote:
Still trying to wrap my head around that a sniper is the same as suicide bomber. He's "Clueless" keeps popping up.


Winna, winna Chicken Dinna!
   
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Relapse wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
Still trying to wrap my head around that a sniper is the same as suicide bomber. He's "Clueless" keeps popping up.


Winna, winna Chicken Dinna!


Hope the DFAC has those fine dining plastic ware to eat that yard bird

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jihadin wrote:
Still trying to wrap my head around that a sniper is the same as suicide bomber. He's "Clueless" keeps popping up.


No one said they're exactly the same, just that there are similarities. Both use a cowardly tactic (Attacking through stealth/deception).
   
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This Is Where the Fish Lives

 skyth wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
Still trying to wrap my head around that a sniper is the same as suicide bomber. He's "Clueless" keeps popping up.


No one said they're exactly the same, just that there are similarities. Both use a cowardly tactic (Attacking through stealth/deception).


Come on, dude...

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 10:17:05


 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 skyth wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
Still trying to wrap my head around that a sniper is the same as suicide bomber. He's "Clueless" keeps popping up.


No one said they're exactly the same, just that there are similarities. Both use a cowardly tactic (Attacking through stealth/deception).


hmm so any kind of stealth or deception is cowardly? So its just frontal assaults against prepared positions that are legit - presumably at a pre-arranged tome so everyone is awake and ready? I really hope you never have to have any kind of military command.

Using children as indiscriminate weapons is the same as using a rifle?

Using children as weapons is the same as attacking at night or from a direction that is unexpected?

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My opinion is this - States and individuals are not bound by the same rules. They are actually opposed. Honor; Fairness, what have you are noble traits for the individual, but selfish and bankrupt when you are the agent of an entire state. If you are engaging in a duel or some kind of sport in which rules and such are enforced, cheating is abhorrent. If you are engaged in warfare; in which either way people will die and the only difference is how you prosecute that war which determines how many people will die on either side you are morally charged with lessening the impact on your own unless your culture holds some sort of value in self sacrifice or is bound by outside rules which hopefully hold some sort of actual value.

To whit - if someone calls you a name in a drinking establishment and you slink out the back, sneak up behind him in the alley outside as he is relieving himself and crack him in the head with a pipe, you would probably be considered a douche; and rightly. That was done for your own benefit.

If your country did the moral equivalent in a war, they would not be wrong or evil; maybe dickish, but that only matters after the winner and loser have been decided.
   
Made in us
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Anything other than a engagment from the front with equal weapons and equal numbers is a cowardly tactic.

I'm also glad that that is how our military fights. I am just under no illusion that it is honorable or fair.

And not all suicide bombers are children or go after civilian targets. The Kamakazi attacks in World War 2 were suicide bombers. The soldier who pulls the pins on all his grenades when he is captured is a suicide bomber.

The DC sniper was a child targetting civilian targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bromsy wrote:
My opinion is this - States and individuals are not bound by the same rules. They are actually opposed. Honor; Fairness, what have you are noble traits for the individual, but selfish and bankrupt when you are the agent of an entire state. If you are engaging in a duel or some kind of sport in which rules and such are enforced, cheating is abhorrent. If you are engaged in warfare; in which either way people will die and the only difference is how you prosecute that war which determines how many people will die on either side you are morally charged with lessening the impact on your own unless your culture holds some sort of value in self sacrifice or is bound by outside rules which hopefully hold some sort of actual value.

To whit - if someone calls you a name in a drinking establishment and you slink out the back, sneak up behind him in the alley outside as he is relieving himself and crack him in the head with a pipe, you would probably be considered a douche; and rightly. That was done for your own benefit.

If your country did the moral equivalent in a war, they would not be wrong or evil; maybe dickish, but that only matters after the winner and loser have been decided.


Kind of my point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/22 12:20:43


 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

Anything other than a engagment from the front with equal weapons and equal numbers is a cowardly tactic.


I'm impressed. You just called Alexander, Hannibal, Runstedt, Patton, Eisenhower, Gavin, Zhukov, Lee, Jackson, Thomas, Schwarzkopf, Yamamoto, Yamashita, and Custer all cowards in one handy little sentence.

My hat is off to you sir.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 12:49:18


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Always play to win. Applies to both side.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
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RIP Muhammad Ali.

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Made in gb
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South Wales

 Frazzled wrote:
Anything other than a engagment from the front with equal weapons and equal numbers is a cowardly tactic.


I'm impressed. You just called Alexander, Hannibal, Runstedt, Patton, Eisenhower, Gavin, Zhukov, Lee, Jackson, Thomas, Schwarzkopf, Yamamoto, Yamashita, and Custer all cowards in one handy little sentence.

My hat is off to you sir.


I think he just called everyone who was any good at war a coward.

It's so absurd it's amazing.

Prestor Jon wrote:
Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 skyth wrote:
Anything other than a engagment from the front with equal weapons and equal numbers is a cowardly tactic.Kind of my point.

Does each side have to be equally skilled or may that vary?
What do you mean by "equal weapons". Is that equal number of weapons, equal type of weapons, each side has equivalent/identical weapons, or another definition?

 
   
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USA

 Jihadin wrote:
Always play to win. Applies to both side.


In the words of Master Splinter; "Was that fair? No! Did I win? Yes."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 13:07:39


   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Smacks wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Also I don't recall there being (m)any reports of suicide bombers only killing a single individual as their objective and causing absolutely no collateral damage.


This story 'springs to mind' for some reason...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/10/taliban-suicide-bomb-rectum-assassinate-afghanistan-spy-chief_n_3414249.html

Jokes aside, the target survived, but it appears to have been a fairly precise attack.

Spoiler:
You do have to wonder if it was preceded by the words "pull my finger"

The target was not killed. This was a stipulation in my earlier post that you quoted above

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 LordofHats wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
Always play to win. Applies to both side.


In the words of Master Splinter; "Was that fair? No! Did I win? Yes."


Exactly.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Jihadin wrote:
Always play to win. Applies to both side.


Do you mean to tell me after doing your recon, setting flank/rear security, setting your guys into ambush position and patiently waiting for the bad guys to enter the kill zone, you did not initiate the ambush with a 'Hey, we're here and about to open fire" while having every one break chem lights or turn on flash lights and stand up and wave?

You probably didn't mark your kill zones with PT belts either.

Cheater.




Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
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USA

Oh man. This reminds me of this guy back when I played Chrome Hounds. He was always spewing off about this "Art of Combat" stuff where he demanded players duel 1v1 and announce themselves Battletech Clans style or you were a coward. He'd go onto the forums and whine and complain for hours about how everyone was fighting unfair

I got to play against him once. Feed him a couple volleys of howitzer and "announced myself" after he exploded

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 13:20:32


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MrDwhitey wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Anything other than a engagment from the front with equal weapons and equal numbers is a cowardly tactic.


I'm impressed. You just called Alexander, Hannibal, Runstedt, Patton, Eisenhower, Gavin, Zhukov, Lee, Jackson, Thomas, Schwarzkopf, Yamamoto, Yamashita, and Custer all cowards in one handy little sentence.

My hat is off to you sir.


I think he just called everyone who was any good at war a coward.

It's so absurd it's amazing.


Not really absurd. They did what was right and what was smart to win the war. Doesn't change the fact that they used cowardly tactics.
   
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 skyth wrote:
Not really absurd. They did what was right and what was smart to win the war. Doesn't change the fact that they used cowardly tactics.

So what precisely do you feel was indicative of a lack of courage in the tactics used?

 
   
Made in gb
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Relapse wrote:
 Smacks wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Because Warâ„¢ is hell and the only way to win Warâ„¢ is to kill the enemy by any measures as possible.
Which would imply that suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic. I don't know why it is such a sore point for comparisons on here, is it just the terrorist connotations? Everyone thought it heroic at the end of Independence Day when an American flies his plane into the enemy HQ. I guess it's all about perspective.


Strapping bombs to kids and sending them to kill civilians, as often happens over there is legitimate?
I wasn't the one who said the only way to win a war is to kill the enemy by any measure. And you are trying to conflate suicide bombing with forcing children to their death. In Africa warlords give guns to kids too and get them addicted to hard drugs to make them fight. Does that mean guns aren't a legitimate means of war? Or is it actually the forcing kids to use them bit that's wrong?

Personally, I don't like guns, suicide bombs, or war. I think they are all fairly illegitimate and stupid. (I'm not really that keen on kids either).

Relapse wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Smacks wrote:
We had long wars with Vietnam and Japan which didn't really go anywhere good, then eventually ended up winning them over passively with capitalism.


I'm not sure how we passively won against Japan XD


I think a lot of us are trying to figure the logic behind Smack's statement on that one, especially the ones who had family in that theatre of war.
I'm not really sure what is hard to understand. Unless you can't tell see the difference between nuking someone into submission, and winning them over culturally. Is "winning someone over" not a term in the US? It means getting someone to like and accept you. Sorry if that was being confused with "winning a war", sometimes I forget that not everyone here speaks the same language.

Smack could be referring to the gradual collapse of Japanese Isolationism in the 19th century, but I'm not sure XD

Well now you can be sure. EDIT: Never mind

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/22 14:14:35


 
   
Made in us
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USA

It was just kind of unclear what you meant XD Imperial Japan already was capitalist in any meaningful sense. Granted even Isolationism wasn't just 'won over' unless we ignore Mathew Perry and good old gun boat diplomacy XD

   
 
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