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So I was having a thought about renegade marines and was wondering how it would go and what would happen if they didn't go chaos? Why would marines go renegade in the first place? What would the Imperium think of them? What would they even do all the time? Thoughts?

 Great White wrote:
So I was having a thought about renegade marines and was wondering how it would go and what would happen if they didn't go chaos? Why would marines go renegade in the first place? What would the Imperium think of them? What would they even do all the time? Thoughts?

Well they could be like the Renegade chapter the Soul Drinkers, who just disagree with the imperium.

You could be like the Relictors who haven't turned to chaos but use chaos relics.

You could also be like the Knights of Blood, who are just dislike by the imperium at large.


Or you could just be a chapter that has ceded from the imperium.

They would end up falling to Chaos, or dying. See, they'd fall to Khorne or Slaanesh if they start having too much fun killing stuff, Nurgle as they realise the futility of their fight against an Enormous Imperium that is beating them slowly but surely, or even Tzeench as a single Librarian slowly plots to corrupt the Chapter or the Alpha legion or something are revealed to have caused their treason to the Imperuim in the first place.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
They would end up falling to Chaos, or dying. See, they'd fall to Khorne or Slaanesh if they start having too much fun killing stuff, Nurgle as they realise the futility of their fight against an Enormous Imperium that is beating them slowly but surely, or even Tzeench as a single Librarian slowly plots to corrupt the Chapter or the Alpha legion or something are revealed to have caused their treason to the Imperuim in the first place.

What? No. Chaos is incredibly rare to be worshipped. Sometimes imperial sectors just leave the imperium, and do not fall to chaos.

They'd probably end up a lot like the Alpha Legion, where they live on the run, waging a guerrilla war.

It's often overlooked, but the Imperium is huge and ridiculously powerful. A single renegade Chapter is a threat to a sector perhaps, but ultimately fairly small compared to the amount of military assets that could be brought to bear against it if it could be forced to fight. So renegades would be almost invariably be fleet-based if they hadn't turned to Chaos, since it would be impossible to establish a long-term base anywhere in "realspace".

Why would Space Marines turn renegade?

Well, they don't, plain and simple. When you consider the number of renegade and traitor Chapters has been suggested to be a little more than 50 by the fluff, you're talking about a failure rate of less than 1% since the Heresy. The Codex does a really good job of preventing Space Marine Chapters from going astray, beginning with the psycho-indoctrination of recruits, all the way up through a decentralized command system with internal oversight (the Chaplains are Watching the Librarians are watching the Apothecaries are watching the Chapter HQ is watching the Chaplains, etc).

So if a Space Marine Chapter is going rogue, we're talking significantly catastrophic events (like the Crimson Sabres) or some kind of slow, insidious corruption and a slow, devious elimination of internal resistance. Otherwise there are just too many agencies within a Space Marine Chapter that have their own agendas.

I mean, absolutely don't let that stop you from creating your own renegade chapter. Those are just things to keep in mind when you're considering the fluff behind it. Space Marine Chapters are very proud, very tradition and honor minded, even if that sense of honor is somewhat warped by the grimdarkness of the setting. A Chapter often has thousands of years of heritage behind it (and even a recent-founding Chapter still has its primogenitor's heritage). If your chapter falls to Chaos, you're tarnishing the heritage of every Marine who has come before you for thousands of years, and ultimately obliterating your line from history. When you consider how devoted Space Marines are to their Chapters and to their Primarch (or the Primarch their line descends from), you realize how much of their identity is rooted in being Space Marines.

The Soul Drinkers are the commonly names renegades.

Clearly chaos reached out to them and even managed to physically mutate some of them but they remained firmly against Chaos and never accepted its power or influence.

However they imperium turned against them and they in turn went against the imperium, they did however still fight for man.

I would think it is pretty uncommon though, if a chapter was declared excommunicate then that would probably deliver them to the hands of chaos even if they were loyal before.

I like the idea of renegade chapters fighting for man but against the clearly corrupt imperium.

The problem is that the "clear corruption" of the Imperium is only really visible to us the readers by virtue of having an external omniscient narrator telling us everything that is wrong with it. The people who live in the universe don't have that benefit and only see the smallest bit of world around them.

For a Space Marine Chapter, they are especially insulated from the corruption and oppression because they've been wholly enveloped by the oppression since they were small children. They don't have any concept of freedom and liberty with which to compare, and they've been endlessly conditioned to believe that the things they believe are absolutely right. Not only that, they have been surrounded solely with like-minded individuals who share the same belief, and communally reinforce that idea.

As far as Space Marines are concerned, "man" and "The Imperium" is the same thing, and they've never known anything different. "Free thinking Space Marines" are pretty much anathema to the setting.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
They would end up falling to Chaos, or dying. See, they'd fall to Khorne or Slaanesh if they start having too much fun killing stuff, Nurgle as they realise the futility of their fight against an Enormous Imperium that is beating them slowly but surely, or even Tzeench as a single Librarian slowly plots to corrupt the Chapter or the Alpha legion or something are revealed to have caused their treason to the Imperuim in the first place.

I hate this excuse, when they make any renegade chapter into "lolwaschaos" it really kills it for me. Its said for every Imperial world there's a thousand other human worlds that aren't worth the Imperium's time or remain opposed to them. The idea that a space marine can only go renegade if chaos is involved is really silly. After seeing the horrors they've seen time and again, I'm sure there's been plenty of seeds of doubt in any marines mind and all it takes is an opportunity to act on them to get away.

Shadowclaimer wrote:ts said for every Imperial world there's a thousand other human worlds that aren't worth the Imperium's time or remain opposed to them.

No it isn't, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shadowclaimer wrote:ts said for every Imperial world there's a thousand other human worlds that aren't worth the Imperium's time or remain opposed to them.

No it isn't, lol.

Actually it is. Even I know that and I've only been into 40k for like a year

 dusara217 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shadowclaimer wrote:ts said for every Imperial world there's a thousand other human worlds that aren't worth the Imperium's time or remain opposed to them.

No it isn't, lol.

Actually it is. Even I know that and I've only been into 40k for like a year

Quite a few books give that almost exact quote, I know the RPG's reference it here and there.

There's so many human empires that aren't worth the time to invade or capture because the tithe they'd pay back would never pay off the military campaign to take them in the first place. Crusades typically nab a couple on their way through but for the most-part they're left alone because they don't have access to space travel yet (thus can't be an issue) and aren't worth the resources/don't produce a resource the Imperium needs.

I'm sure a lot of you say that. The fluff doesn't though.

This is another player-invented myth caused from misinterpreting what certain parts of the fluff say.

Found an example, I was off on the hyperbole/exaggeration though (its 10:1). There's also larger human empires and secessionist empires that the Imperium is trying to deal with, like the Severan Dominate. IT also seems like a planetary governor goes rogue every couple decades and tries to start something (which usually lasts for a bit, then the Imperium finally decides to stop by and put an end to it.)



And you're jumping to some mighty conclusions thinking we don't know our fluff and just make gak up. Its pretty insulting to insinuate everyone around here pulls everything out of their asses.

There's also entire sectors/wings of the galaxy completely cut off from the Imperium still that were probably colonized during the Dark Age of Technology that they haven't even gotten to yet. In recent years they've opened up a few of them in lore and placed the Imperium there, so there's no telling how many worlds are still out there untouched.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
They would end up falling to Chaos, or dying. See, they'd fall to Khorne or Slaanesh if they start having too much fun killing stuff, Nurgle as they realise the futility of their fight against an Enormous Imperium that is beating them slowly but surely, or even Tzeench as a single Librarian slowly plots to corrupt the Chapter or the Alpha legion or something are revealed to have caused their treason to the Imperuim in the first place.

I hate this excuse, when they make any renegade chapter into "lolwaschaos" it really kills it for me. Its said for every Imperial world there's a thousand other human worlds that aren't worth the Imperium's time or remain opposed to them. The idea that a space marine can only go renegade if chaos is involved is really silly. After seeing the horrors they've seen time and again, I'm sure there's been plenty of seeds of doubt in any marines mind and all it takes is an opportunity to act on them to get away.

I agree.

The Imperium might have space marine chapters that go missing entirely when they are sent out.

I would not be surprised if there might be a third founding chapter that is confused by the dogmatic worship of the Emperor who have been lost in the warp and go renegade because they think that isn't the imperium I knew..


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you say that. The fluff doesn't though.

This is another player-invented myth caused from misinterpreting what certain parts of the fluff say.

Not really. The Fluff does say it. In the older editions and even some of the newer editions do as well.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
They would end up falling to Chaos, or dying. See, they'd fall to Khorne or Slaanesh if they start having too much fun killing stuff, Nurgle as they realise the futility of their fight against an Enormous Imperium that is beating them slowly but surely, or even Tzeench as a single Librarian slowly plots to corrupt the Chapter or the Alpha legion or something are revealed to have caused their treason to the Imperuim in the first place.

I hate this excuse, when they make any renegade chapter into "lolwaschaos" it really kills it for me. Its said for every Imperial world there's a thousand other human worlds that aren't worth the Imperium's time or remain opposed to them. The idea that a space marine can only go renegade if chaos is involved is really silly. After seeing the horrors they've seen time and again, I'm sure there's been plenty of seeds of doubt in any marines mind and all it takes is an opportunity to act on them to get away.

I agree.

The Imperium might have space marine chapters that go missing entirely when they are sent out.

I would not be surprised if there might be a third founding chapter that is confused by the dogmatic worship of the Emperor who have been lost in the warp and go renegade because they think that isn't the imperium I knew..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you say that. The fluff doesn't though.

This is another player-invented myth caused from misinterpreting what certain parts of the fluff say.

Not really. The Fluff does say it. In the older editions and even some of the newer editions do as well.

I've always wanted an Imperial Truth-based Chapter to rebel, would be interesting.

I've always wanted an Imperial Truth-based Chapter to rebel, would be interesting.

I am surprised there hasn't been any lore about hundreds of space marine chapters wondering why everyone is turning towards the thing the Emperor said not too.

Aren't the Space Wolves practically renegade marines? I mean, they fight for the Emperor and the Imperium, but didn't they basically give the High Lords and the Inquisition the finger? They're not Codex marines, they don't accept/follow Imperial authority (even more so than other Chapters)... they seem to just go around doing things their own way, dishing out their own brand of wolfy space justice. No? I've always thought of them that way, at least. I've also always seen the Black Templars as borderline renegade marines for similar reasons. Anyone else?

 Asherian Command wrote:

I've always wanted an Imperial Truth-based Chapter to rebel, would be interesting.

I am surprised there hasn't been any lore about hundreds of space marine chapters wondering why everyone is turning towards the thing the Emperor said not too.

A multi-millenial game of telephone.

Each generation of marines gets slightly more invested in viewing their father as a god than the previous and slips away from the original ideal. There's plenty of chapters though that stand firmly in the old ways of the Imperial Truth, they just don't raise a fuss about it really. I just find it funny that the Emperor gave Lorgar gak about the Imperial Faith and then now everyone is doing what Lorgar did.

 Anfauglir wrote:
Aren't the Space Wolves practically renegade marines? I mean, they fight for the Emperor and the Imperium, but didn't they basically give the High Lords and the Inquisition the finger? They're not Codex marines, they don't accept/follow Imperial authority (even more so than other Chapters)... they seem to just go around doing things their own way, dishing out their own brand of wolfy space justice. No? I've always thought of them that way, at least. I've also always seen the Black Templars as borderline renegade marines for similar reasons. Anyone else?

Well the High Lords in particular are just administrators and politicians. The Inquisition in general hates the space wolves.


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 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I've always wanted an Imperial Truth-based Chapter to rebel, would be interesting.

I am surprised there hasn't been any lore about hundreds of space marine chapters wondering why everyone is turning towards the thing the Emperor said not too.

A multi-millenial game of telephone.

Each generation of marines gets slightly more invested in viewing their father as a god than the previous and slips away from the original ideal. There's plenty of chapters though that stand firmly in the old ways of the Imperial Truth, they just don't raise a fuss about it really. I just find it funny that the Emperor gave Lorgar gak about the Imperial Faith and then now everyone is doing what Lorgar did.

I think thats why we haven't seen lorgar since the heresy. Because he is crying over the fact that someone else did better than he could.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Aren't the Space Wolves practically renegade marines? I mean, they fight for the Emperor and the Imperium, but didn't they basically give the High Lords and the Inquisition the finger? They're not Codex marines, they don't accept/follow Imperial authority (even more so than other Chapters)... they seem to just go around doing things their own way, dishing out their own brand of wolfy space justice. No? I've always thought of them that way, at least. I've also always seen the Black Templars as borderline renegade marines for similar reasons. Anyone else?

Well the High Lords in particular are just administrators and politicians. The Inquisition in general hates the space wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I've always wanted an Imperial Truth-based Chapter to rebel, would be interesting.

I am surprised there hasn't been any lore about hundreds of space marine chapters wondering why everyone is turning towards the thing the Emperor said not too.

A multi-millenial game of telephone.

Each generation of marines gets slightly more invested in viewing their father as a god than the previous and slips away from the original ideal. There's plenty of chapters though that stand firmly in the old ways of the Imperial Truth, they just don't raise a fuss about it really. I just find it funny that the Emperor gave Lorgar gak about the Imperial Faith and then now everyone is doing what Lorgar did.

I think thats why we haven't seen lorgar since the heresy. Because he is crying over the fact that someone else did better than he could.

Space Hypocrits*

"Oh Magnus you're using sorcery! But we're invoking the spirits of our ancestors and runic sorcery and that's okay!" "Magus you're evil! Your legion is full of mutants! But we're unleashing hordes of werewolf space marines but that's normal!"

Hate Russ.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well the High Lords in particular are just administrators and politicians. The Inquisition in general hates the space wolves.

The High Lords are also the de facto living embodiment of the Emperor's voice and will. They are Imperial Law. And the Codex is the sactioned military structure by which the Astartes are "allowed" to operate under said law. The Space Wolves pay little attention to either of those things, from what I hear. If that doesn't make them renegade loyalists, then I don't know what they are.

What about marines joining other sides? Like tau or orks even

Look into how the Astral Claws started, they were originally not Chaos.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Great White wrote:
So I was having a thought about renegade marines and was wondering how it would go and what would happen if they didn't go chaos? Why would marines go renegade in the first place? What would the Imperium think of them? What would they even do all the time? Thoughts?

Well they could be like the Renegade chapter the Soul Drinkers, who just disagree with the imperium.

You could be like the Relictors who haven't turned to chaos but use chaos relics.

You could also be like the Knights of Blood, who are just dislike by the imperium at large.


Or you could just be a chapter that has ceded from the imperium.

There are also the Dark Angels, that are loyal only to themselves and kill kill any number of loyal Imperials to cover up their treason.

... and the Carcharodons, which are actually loyal, but have probably killed more Imperials in "friendly" fire incidents than any of the renegade Chapters have intentionally.

 Great White wrote:
What about marines joining other sides? Like tau or orks even

I can't see a large number of marines joining orcs for any given reason, but I ran a conversion of Marine-Tau as an auxillary force. Basically the backstory was that they were captured and put through extensive water caste conditioning/reprogramming and drugs along with a special helmet to make them loyal servants of the Imperium.

Asherian Command wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you say that. The fluff doesn't though.

This is another player-invented myth caused from misinterpreting what certain parts of the fluff say.

Not really. The Fluff does say it. In the older editions and even some of the newer editions do as well.

Source it.

Now here's how it really is.

The Imperium is approximately a million worlds. If there are a thousand worlds that are human settled, but not the Imperium for everyone one that is, that means there are a billion human settled worlds that are not the Imperium.

Aaaannnnnnd, you've already eclipsed the estimated total number of star systems in the Milky Way by a factor of 200-300%. And that's assuming 100% settlement rate by human beings, which we know for a fact isn't true.


Like I said, you've misread or misinterpreted something somewhere.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm sure a lot of you say that. The fluff doesn't though.

This is another player-invented myth caused from misinterpreting what certain parts of the fluff say.

Not really. The Fluff does say it. In the older editions and even some of the newer editions do as well.

Source it.

Now here's how it really is.

The Imperium is approximately a million worlds. If there are a thousand worlds that are human settled, but not the Imperium for everyone one that is, that means there are a billion human settled worlds that are not the Imperium.

Aaaannnnnnd, you've already eclipsed the estimated total number of star systems in the Milky Way by a factor of 200-300%. And that's assuming 100% settlement rate by human beings, which we know for a fact isn't true.


Like I said, you've misread or misinterpreted something somewhere.

I didn't make it up. And stop insulting my intelligence and saying I am misrepresenting it. The Galaxy charts are so radically different from our own it is hilarious.

The fact you bring logic into this debate about a fantasy universe where there are millions of habitable worlds is enough for me to be doubtful of it.

Lost Colonies
When the Age of Strife descended on the galaxy and Warp travel and astropathic communication became impossible, the majority of human colonies were cut off from Terra and forced to survive on their own. In some cases this meant that they devolved into considerably more primitive societies as the knowledge to create and maintain much advanced technology was lost. The Great Crusade reunited many thousands of lost human colonies back into the Imperium of Man, yet every now and then changes in the flow of the Warp mean that new human colonies are unexpectedly discovered. Whilst nobody can know for sure how many, there are almost certainly more colonies still cut off from the rest of humanity, waiting to be discovered.

source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Human

Lets not forget that most of the lore is exaggerated, meaning a thousand worlds to 1 might be just a statement, as there are certain systems of the imperium, that the imperium hasn't even touched.

Shadowclaimer wrote:And you're jumping to some mighty conclusions thinking we don't know our fluff and just make gak up.

I didn't jump to any conclusions. You said something ridiculously wrong, and I said it was ridiculously wrong. I didn't jump to any conclusions. I followed the signs that said "Conclusion: This Way" and arrived exactly where I was supposed to.

Its pretty insulting to insinuate everyone around here pulls everything out of their asses.

It's a good thing I didn't insinuate that. I just said it. And, unsurprisingly, you had indeed been on a rectal mining expedition when you came up with that little factoid.

The correct response you should have made was "Oh, my bad. I had exaggerated exponentially. It's not anywhere close to 1000 to 1." But instead you chose to argue. It is not my fault that you are embarrassed.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shadowclaimer wrote:And you're jumping to some mighty conclusions thinking we don't know our fluff and just make gak up.

I didn't jump to any conclusions. You said something ridiculously wrong, and I said it was ridiculously wrong. I didn't jump to any conclusions. I followed the signs that said "Conclusion: This Way" and arrived exactly where I was supposed to.

Its pretty insulting to insinuate everyone around here pulls everything out of their asses.

It's a good thing I didn't insinuate that. I just said it. And, unsurprisingly, you had indeed been on a rectal mining expedition when you came up with that little factoid.

The correct response you should have made was "Oh, my bad. I had exaggerated exponentially. It's not anywhere close to 1000 to 1." But instead you chose to argue. It is not my fault that you are embarrassed.

I bluntly correctly myself when I posted the image and said I had gone hyperbole/exaggeration in my memory and it was 10:1.

You still are refuting direct canon and trying to pretend its wrong by applying real life physics/math to a fictional universe because you want it to be otherwise.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Look into how the Astral Claws started, they were originally not Chaos.

I could also point to the Blood Drinkers and Relictors and then the venom Thorns (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom_Thorns).

Also the Night Lords techinically did not fall to chaos, they were insane to begin with and just became a warband but never served chaos. Infact according to Talos the Nightlords often looked down on anyone with chaos mutations or demonic marks.

The Flame Falcons also come to mind. Being attacked by the Grey Knights because they spontaneously catch fire. The Inqusition thought it was demonic energy. But knowing them they probably trying to figure out how the chapter had those powers in the first place.