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Right. So why are you arguing with me then? Why are you accusing me of insulting you for not knowing your fluff?

You said something that was wrong. I said it was wrong.


You have admitted you were wrong. What kind of bizarre game are we playing here where you try to run in big circles trying to convince people you weren't wrong I wasn't right.

You said a thousand worlds for every Imperium. I said that wasn't true. You said "Yeah huh!" and I said "Nuh uh," Then you came back with evidence that it was, indeed, "Nuh uh", and you showed you were using a blurb from Rogue Trader to do it, lol.

I refuted no direct canon. I presented the canon. You were refuting direct canon. Fortunately you corrected yourself. Why you're now trying to pretend that I was the one that said something incorrect is rather mystifying. I'm guessing it's a defensive reaction to being embarrassed. You were pretty emphatic about being right, so I can empathize with your uncomfortable situation of being wrong.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Right. So why are you arguing with me then? Why are you accusing me of insulting you for not knowing your fluff?

You said something that was wrong. I said it was wrong.


You have admitted you were wrong. What kind of bizarre game are we playing here where you try to run in big circles trying to convince people you weren't wrong I wasn't right.

You said a thousand worlds for every Imperium. I said that wasn't true. You said "Yeah huh!" and I said "Nuh uh," Then you came back with evidence that it was, indeed, "Nuh uh", and you showed you were using a blurb from Rogue Trader to do it, lol.

I refuted no direct canon. I presented the canon. You were refuting direct canon. Fortunately you corrected yourself. Why you're now trying to pretend that I was the one that said something incorrect is rather mystifying. I'm guessing it's a defensive reaction to being embarrassed. You were pretty emphatic about being right, so I can empathize with your uncomfortable situation of being wrong.

Don't be so accustory and admit to yourself you are acting quite rude to another poster.

You don't have to be as confrontational as you currently have been.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Look into how the Astral Claws started, they were originally not Chaos.

I could also point to the Blood Drinkers and Relictors and then the venom Thorns (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom_Thorns).

Also the Night Lords techinically did not fall to chaos, they were insane to begin with and just became a warband but never served chaos. Infact according to Talos the Nightlords often looked down on anyone with chaos mutations or demonic marks.

The Flame Falcons also come to mind. Being attacked by the Grey Knights because they spontaneously catch fire. The Inqusition thought it was demonic energy. But knowing them they probably trying to figure out how the chapter had those powers in the first place.

The Blood Drinkers and the Relictors are valid examples, although they already show a potential opening for further corruption (extreme bloodlust and intense curiosity about things best not explored).
The Nightlords on the other hands have largely given themselfs to chaos. Talos is deluded and never spoke for the majority of his Legion The largest Nightlords warband is led by Acerbus Krieg, a daemonprince.

KingDeath wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Look into how the Astral Claws started, they were originally not Chaos.

I could also point to the Blood Drinkers and Relictors and then the venom Thorns (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom_Thorns).

Also the Night Lords techinically did not fall to chaos, they were insane to begin with and just became a warband but never served chaos. Infact according to Talos the Nightlords often looked down on anyone with chaos mutations or demonic marks.

The Flame Falcons also come to mind. Being attacked by the Grey Knights because they spontaneously catch fire. The Inqusition thought it was demonic energy. But knowing them they probably trying to figure out how the chapter had those powers in the first place.

The Blood Drinkers and the Relictors are valid examples, although they already show a potential opening for further corruption (extreme bloodlust and intense curiosity about things best not explored).
The Nightlords on the other hands have largely given themselfs to chaos. Talos is deluded and never spoke for the majority of his Legion The largest Nightlords warband is led by Acerbus Krieg, a daemonprince.

We also got the Venom thorns and the Sons of Malice as well who have not been turned to chaos.

The Son's of Malice do not summon demons, and are known to worship Malice. But thats all we know. They aren't corrupted by chaos either.

 Asherian Command wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Look into how the Astral Claws started, they were originally not Chaos.

I could also point to the Blood Drinkers and Relictors and then the venom Thorns (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom_Thorns).

Also the Night Lords techinically did not fall to chaos, they were insane to begin with and just became a warband but never served chaos. Infact according to Talos the Nightlords often looked down on anyone with chaos mutations or demonic marks.

The Flame Falcons also come to mind. Being attacked by the Grey Knights because they spontaneously catch fire. The Inqusition thought it was demonic energy. But knowing them they probably trying to figure out how the chapter had those powers in the first place.

The Blood Drinkers and the Relictors are valid examples, although they already show a potential opening for further corruption (extreme bloodlust and intense curiosity about things best not explored).
The Nightlords on the other hands have largely given themselfs to chaos. Talos is deluded and never spoke for the majority of his Legion The largest Nightlords warband is led by Acerbus Krieg, a daemonprince.

We also got the Venom thorns and the Sons of Malice as well who have not been turned to chaos.

The Son's of Malice do not summon demons, and are known to worship Malice. But thats all we know. They aren't corrupted by chaos either.

Isn't Malice a minor chaos god? Imo the reason why most renegade chapters will sooner or later fall to chaos is because once they go renegade, they will not only have to face the likely prospect of imperial retribution but they also have to do so without allies and without a truly safe haven. In such a situation heading for the Eye of Terror (or the Maelstrom) might look like a good option to ensure survival. They wouldn't even have to follow the chaos gods at that point, that can happen after a few decades or centuries of marinating within the raw stuff of insanity
Of course, joining one of the various xenos empires would solve that problem but doing that is perhaps even more radical for a spacenazi-, erm, marine than simply forsaking the corrupt Imperium.

Even if they dont fall to chaos they propably still need to raid loyalist marine chapters because they will run out of equipment over time. Even Space Marine suffer losses / have to replace parts. Particulary if they have to fight against chaos AND imperium... and the rest of mankinds enemies. And a raid on another chapter is not always guaranteed to be of positive outcome. They might win tactically but if the losses overshadow the gains it's still a loss strategically.
You can't fight a war without supplies (well you can, you're just not going to win it)

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Source it.

Now here's how it really is.

The Imperium is approximately a million worlds. If there are a thousand worlds that are human settled, but not the Imperium for everyone one that is, that means there are a billion human settled worlds that are not the Imperium.

Aaaannnnnnd, you've already eclipsed the estimated total number of star systems in the Milky Way by a factor of 200-300%. And that's assuming 100% settlement rate by human beings, which we know for a fact isn't true.


Like I said, you've misread or misinterpreted something somewhere.

Actually, according to NASA, there are at least 100,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy and each one of them could have their own planetary system. That's a potentially more than a hundred billion star systems.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Beyond

That said, 40K does take place in a fictional galaxy but it is based on ours. So there probably are a similar number of solar systems. Also, I think it's mentioned in some of the more recent lore that Orks potentially outnumber humanity. Does somebody have a source for that?

And can we not take such a toxic tone in the forums? Why not debate fluff with sources instead of making it personal?

(I mention Ork population numbers because that Human Adventurers source states that humans are the most numerous. I'm pretty sure it's outdated).

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Right. So why are you arguing with me then? Why are you accusing me of insulting you for not knowing your fluff?

You said something that was wrong. I said it was wrong.


You have admitted you were wrong. What kind of bizarre game are we playing here where you try to run in big circles trying to convince people you weren't wrong I wasn't right.

You said a thousand worlds for every Imperium. I said that wasn't true. You said "Yeah huh!" and I said "Nuh uh," Then you came back with evidence that it was, indeed, "Nuh uh", and you showed you were using a blurb from Rogue Trader to do it, lol.

I refuted no direct canon. I presented the canon. You were refuting direct canon. Fortunately you corrected yourself. Why you're now trying to pretend that I was the one that said something incorrect is rather mystifying. I'm guessing it's a defensive reaction to being embarrassed. You were pretty emphatic about being right, so I can empathize with your uncomfortable situation of being wrong.

Don't be so accustory and admit to yourself you are acting quite rude to another poster.

You don't have to be as confrontational as you currently have been.

Uh, hate to burst the Imagination Bubble with another Reality Pin, but he was rude to me first.

I simply said what he said wasn't true. Then he got all defensive and accused me of insulting him. Calling someone rude for being correct is not rude. It isn't my fault he was wrong. And not my fault you were wrong in agreeing with him. I told you that was wrong. You disagreed, he searched for proof that indeed demonstrated that you guys were wrong because you had misread/misremembered/misinterpreted a bit of fluff you had once read. Which, of course, was what I had indicated was the most likely case. Then he got defensive and accused me of jumping to conclusions and insulting him by insinuating he didn't know the fluff. But I wasn't insinuating that. That was the truth. You guys didn't know the fluff correctly. Again, it's not rude to point that out. Heck, I didn't even point that out. I never said you didn't know the fluff. I simply said you didn't know that piece of fluff specifically. If that's simply indicative of a greater state of fluff-ignorance, this is a shortcoming you have self-reported, not one I have suggested.

This is where adults admit they goofed up instead of attacking other posters. Because trust me, you'll lose that battle because my ego is inviolate, and yours seems to be fairly fragile. From what I remember of your posts, you tend to get pretty standoffish pretty quickly, and I assume it's tied to the same persecution complex that you have here, since you're imagining everyone is being rude to you without realizing that it was your own unpleasant tone and language that brought on those responses.

Look, I understand that the scale of 40K is vast and it easily confuses people not accustomed to considering numbers that large. To him, 1000:1 probably sounded reasonable. But there's a vast difference between 11 million human inhabited planetary systems and 1 billion inhabited star systems. Let's put this into another context you might be able to understand. It's like somebody saying "Yeah, Hitler killed around 60,000 Jews in the concentration camps." You might be off by just a tiny amount. If I called you out for being wrong, you don't get to be angry at me for doing it.

And you seem to be confused about how the "Because Warhammer" argument functions. You see, it isn't a catch-all for not having a good answer. If somebody says "Plasma guns wouldn't work" you can say "Because Warhammer." Let's be realistic. If we went back 2000 years to the second Roman emperor and told him we;d eventually be able to talk across his empire in real time using both voice and video, he'd think we were crazy. So yeah, maybe several millennia will make contained energy projectiles something that is possible. We can even hand-wave off things like Space Marine biology, or the number of inhabited systems (which really doesn't seem to unreasonable given how many of them are described as utterly inhospitable if it wasn't for extensive terraforming and sealed/underground population centers). But you don't just get to use "Because Warhammer" to answer everthing you can't come up with a good explanation for or against.

Red Corsairs. Not all of them worship Chaos, and its the second largest organized force of non Imperial Space Marines in the galaxy after the Black Legion. A massive pirate fleet of soldiers of fortune, renegades, the occasional cult worshipper, and mercenaries.

Hey Veteran, I was about to point you to my previous post when you said there are about 300 million stars in our galaxy but it seems you've edited your post. The 1000:1 world thing might have been wrong but so were the figures you provided. No need to blow this out of proportion.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Source it.

Now here's how it really is.

The Imperium is approximately a million worlds. If there are a thousand worlds that are human settled, but not the Imperium for everyone one that is, that means there are a billion human settled worlds that are not the Imperium.

Aaaannnnnnd, you've already eclipsed the estimated total number of star systems in the Milky Way by a factor of 200-300%. And that's assuming 100% settlement rate by human beings, which we know for a fact isn't true.


Like I said, you've misread or misinterpreted something somewhere.

Actually, according to NASA, there are at least 100,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy and each one of them could have their own planetary system. That's a potentially more than a hundred billion star systems.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Beyond

That said, 40K does take place in a fictional galaxy but it is based on ours. So there probably are a similar number of solar systems. Also, I think it's mentioned in some of the more recent lore that Orks potentially outnumber humanity. Does somebody have a source for that?

And can we not take such a toxic tone in the forums? Why not debate fluff with sources instead of making it personal?

(I mention Ork population numbers because that Human Adventurers source states that humans are the most numerous. I'm pretty sure it's outdated).

That's not recent, Orks have always outnumbered everyone. Probably even the Tyranids, especially if it's true that the Orks have colonized the Local Group.

 Wyzilla wrote:

That's not recent, Orks have always outnumbered everyone. Probably even the Tyranids, especially if it's true that the Orks have colonized the Local Group.

Yea, that's what I thought I read in the codex. Too bad there isn't a similar map showing the density of colonized human worlds but yea, it'll do. My math isn't all that great but that's probably a ridiculous amount of Ork infested worlds. Thanks!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is where adults admit they goofed up instead of attacking other posters. Because trust me, you'll lose that battle because my ego is inviolate, and yours seems to be fairly fragile. From what I remember of your posts, you tend to get pretty standoffish pretty quickly, and I assume it's tied to the same persecution complex that you have here, since you're imagining everyone is being rude to you without realizing that it was your own unpleasant tone and language that brought on those responses.

Look, I understand that the scale of 40K is vast and it easily confuses people not accustomed to considering numbers that large. To him, 1000:1 probably sounded reasonable. But there's a vast difference between 11 million human inhabited planetary systems and 1 billion inhabited star systems. Let's put this into another context you might be able to understand. It's like somebody saying "Yeah, Hitler killed around 60,000 Jews in the concentration camps." You might be off by just a tiny amount. If I called you out for being wrong, you don't get to be angry at me for doing it.
.

Also, Veteran, I read your post again and it's pretty condescending. Your own numbers were off by a huge margin. It's ironic you're telling him to act like an adult when you're the one that's having a hissy fit. Btw have you heard of Godwin's Law?

Lot of salt in this thread. It'd be cool if the argument over fluff went away, this is a topic that isn't discussed often and when it is the answers are usually incorrect or skewed.

Anyways, check this out if no one has posted it already.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Renegade_Space_Marine_Chapters

Yea, I kinda went off topic as well. Well, I think the best example of chapters turning renegade would be the Badab War. I'd definitely read up on that if you aren't already familiar, Great White. Some of the renegades were still loyal to Emperor and were pardoned at the end of the war. Chapters can turn renegade or fight alongside them despite having good intentions (Mantis Warriors, Lamenters, etc).
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War

 Stormwall wrote:
Lot of salt in this thread. It'd be cool if the argument over fluff went away, this is a topic that isn't discussed often and when it is the answers are usually incorrect or skewed.

Anyways, check this out if no one has posted it already.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Renegade_Space_Marine_Chapters

Yeah thats where I got most of them.

I mean it would be cool to see dakka dakka have a repository for all renegade chapters that are fan made.

So...

OK.

Rule #1 is mandatory here.

Let's please have less...digital posturing all around and more good-natured talk about the Toy Soldier Universe we all know (kind of) and love (sort of).

Thanks!

Thanks Alpharius and I guess I'll post it again since I only got one answer last time. Do marines join other races like tau or something? Would they be accepting of the new race?

 Great White wrote:
Thanks Alpharius and I guess I'll post it again since I only got one answer last time. Do marines join other races like tau or something? Would they be accepting of the new race?

Depends on the chapter mostly, and how their relations are to other xenos. Some chapters do indeed trade and act as dipolmats to say the Tau or The Eldar.

 Great White wrote:
Thanks Alpharius and I guess I'll post it again since I only got one answer last time. Do marines join other races like tau or something? Would they be accepting of the new race?

Well, youve got the Alpha Legion, who supposedly work for the Cabal (maybe?). And then there are a bunch of human settled worlds who have joined the Tau, and even some human mercenaries out there who work for them. So I would assume its possible, though probably very infrequent.

EngulfedObjec wrote: Btw have you heard of Godwin's Law?

Yeah, I have. However, I think your understanding of Godwin's Law is similar to his understanding of the number of "lost" or unaffiliated human settlements. One of those things you heard about once but misremember/misunderstand.

Godwin's Law involves a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis. I was just using a common number that everyone knows to demonstrate how significantly off his numbers were, and the gravity of that size difference. Godwin's Law needs a fallacial or hyperbolic comparison to be made, not just the simple mention of the Nazis, Hitler, or the Third Reich in the course of a discussion.

It was my bad to trust Google's quick answer on my phone on the star system numbers, though ultimately it's irrelevant and tangential, since the only real discussion here was whether or not there were 1000 settled planets for every one that was part of the Imperium, which was untrue.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

EngulfedObjec wrote: Btw have you heard of Godwin's Law?

Yeah, I have. However, I think your understanding of Godwin's Law is similar to his understanding of the number of "lost" or unaffiliated human settlements. One of those things you heard about once but misremember/misunderstand.

Godwin's Law involves a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis. I was just using a common number that everyone knows to demonstrate how significantly off his numbers were, and the gravity of that size difference. Godwin's Law refers to fallacial or hyperbolic comparisons, not just the simple mention of the Nazis, Hitler, or the Third Reich. Is this where I suggest that perhaps instead of being snippy, you apologize like an adult?

It was my bad to trust Google's quick answer on my phone on the stay system numbers, though ultimately it's irrelevant, since the only real discussion here was whether or not there were 1000 settled planets for every one that was part of the Imperium.

Buddy, youve just been making yourself sound like a jackass. Admit defeat and move on, the "argument" has been over for a while.

We can really do without the digs and cracks at each other.

Let's move on please.

I'll upset Space Marine purists by saying I don't see Space Marines as total infallible people. Their indoctrination is about as heavy as it gets, but as I said earlier I'm sure after the gak they've seen anything is possible.

I definitely think there are way more sources of Space Marine defection than simply chaos. We've already covered the Imperial Truth conflicts, that's not even considering personal conflicts between chapters/Imperial factions and chapters, Xeno influence, etc.

I'd like to see more in the future where chapters go renegade, it always makes for really unique and interesting storytelling.

 Great White wrote:
Thanks Alpharius and I guess I'll post it again since I only got one answer last time. Do marines join other races like tau or something? Would they be accepting of the new race?

Any alliances would be temporary at best. I don't think I've come across a single piece of fluff where Space Marines join a xenos race permanently. Maybe someone can dispute this? It could have happened in some novel I haven't read but it would seem extremely unlikely.

The Tau would be probably be the only ones to really accept them but it just seems impossible for Space Marines who carry the Emperor's geneseed to want to join them and submit to the Ethereals. Blasphemy!

 Jollydevil wrote:
Well, youve got the Alpha Legion, who supposedly work for the Cabal (maybe?). And then there are a bunch of human settled worlds who have joined the Tau, and even some human mercenaries out there who work for them. So I would assume its possible, though probably very infrequent.

Yea but the Alpha Legion didn't really join them did they? More like they were working towards a common purpose. And after 10k years it seems likely that they've lost sight of this purpose. The others are just normal humans, not astartes.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Godwin's Law involves a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis. I was just using a common number that everyone knows to demonstrate how significantly off his numbers were, and the gravity of that size difference. Godwin's Law needs a fallacial or hyperbolic comparison to be made, not just the simple mention of the Nazis, Hitler, or the Third Reich in the course of a discussion.

It was my bad to trust Google's quick answer on my phone on the star system numbers, though ultimately it's irrelevant and tangential, since the only real discussion here was whether or not there were 1000 settled planets for every one that was part of the Imperium, which was untrue.

Yes, I realize Godwin's law isn't just the mention of Nazis but bringing them up for a discussion about the number of settled planets in the 40K universe is going down a slippery slope and I wanted to point that out. It would have been better to back down and return to a friendly discussion after realizing you made the exact same mistake you were calling Asheron out on.

And I'll stop here. I was trying to contain the argument, not escalate it. The argument blew up so fast I felt like I had to step in. Sorry mods...

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Look into how the Astral Claws started, they were originally not Chaos.

I could also point to the Blood Drinkers and Relictors and then the venom Thorns (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom_Thorns).

Also the Night Lords techinically did not fall to chaos, they were insane to begin with and just became a warband but never served chaos. Infact according to Talos the Nightlords often looked down on anyone with chaos mutations or demonic marks.

The Flame Falcons also come to mind. Being attacked by the Grey Knights because they spontaneously catch fire. The Inqusition thought it was demonic energy. But knowing them they probably trying to figure out how the chapter had those powers in the first place.

Also, the Sons of Medusa were essentially Renegades who were returned to the fold, similar to Lamenters.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Also, the Sons of Medusa were essentially Renegades who were returned to the fold, similar to Lamenters.

Yea, the Badab War has the best examples of renegade chapters. Even the Sons of Medusa took part in that campaign, though they were loyalists at that point. OP, go read about the war if you aren't already familiar with it!

The original version of Godwin's Law was simply that "as the length of an internet discussion thread increases, the probability of someone making a comparison involving Hitler or the Nazis approaches 1."

There's a later corollary which states that the first person to make the comparison loses the argument, but I don't think that's always useful!

The Sons of Medusa are actually a very good example of a Chapter which was, technically, both renegade and heretical, but has been accepted back into the Imperium's good graces. When I got back into the hobby last year, they were the Chapter I picked, so I've read a lot about them.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I'll upset Space Marine purists by saying I don't see Space Marines as total infallible people. Their indoctrination is about as heavy as it gets, but as I said earlier I'm sure after the gak they've seen anything is possible.

I definitely think there are way more sources of Space Marine defection than simply chaos. We've already covered the Imperial Truth conflicts, that's not even considering personal conflicts between chapters/Imperial factions and chapters, Xeno influence, etc.

I'd like to see more in the future where chapters go renegade, it always makes for really unique and interesting storytelling.

I totally agree with you. So many of the purist basically are so extremely rude if you tell them you like see the Space Marines as tools. As Dan Abnett wrote it was Guilliman's opinion that Empy saw them as the guardians of tomorrow and such, and now they have gone from failing tool to even worse as you might need 1000 guys just to make one. Thats a lousy number.

Also you did an excellent job covering why Space Marines say goodbye to the IOM. They get tired of the hypocrisy, that they don't get to decide enough, that the Xenos strike deals and all number of reasons. This is what I would call a long shot though, maybe some few even decide to skip over to Xenos, but I would avoid it as they are notoriously anti-Xeno.

I can see mind-control of the chapter master or chief librarian coming into play there when it comes to them siding with Xenos, but that mainly in my mind count towards Eldar, and they rarely operate like that.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I'll upset Space Marine purists by saying I don't see Space Marines as total infallible people. Their indoctrination is about as heavy as it gets, but as I said earlier I'm sure after the gak they've seen anything is possible.

I definitely think there are way more sources of Space Marine defection than simply chaos. We've already covered the Imperial Truth conflicts, that's not even considering personal conflicts between chapters/Imperial factions and chapters, Xeno influence, etc.

I'd like to see more in the future where chapters go renegade, it always makes for really unique and interesting storytelling.

I totally agree with you. So many of the purist basically are so extremely rude if you tell them you like see the Space Marines as tools. As Dan Abnett wrote it was Guilliman's opinion that Empy saw them as the guardians of tomorrow and such, and now they have gone from failing tool to even worse as you might need 1000 guys just to make one. Thats a lousy number.

Also you did an excellent job covering why Space Marines say goodbye to the IOM. They get tired of the hypocrisy, that they don't get to decide enough, that the Xenos strike deals and all number of reasons. This is what I would call a long shot though, maybe some few even decide to skip over to Xenos, but I would avoid it as they are notoriously anti-Xeno.

I can see mind-control of the chapter master or chief librarian coming into play there when it comes to them siding with Xenos, but that mainly in my mind count towards Eldar, and they rarely operate like that.

Isn't there canon somewhere of a space marine taking up an Eldar blade and becomes possessed by the soul of an Eldar or Eldar God or something? I vaguely recall something like that.

I made Tau-controlled Space Marines as my auxillaries for my army, I just had them as small squads created through extreme indoctrination, drug treatments, and finally a mind-control helmet with a Water-caste "caretaker" with them.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I'll upset Space Marine purists by saying I don't see Space Marines as total infallible people. Their indoctrination is about as heavy as it gets, but as I said earlier I'm sure after the gak they've seen anything is possible.

I definitely think there are way more sources of Space Marine defection than simply chaos. We've already covered the Imperial Truth conflicts, that's not even considering personal conflicts between chapters/Imperial factions and chapters, Xeno influence, etc.

I'd like to see more in the future where chapters go renegade, it always makes for really unique and interesting storytelling.

I totally agree with you. So many of the purist basically are so extremely rude if you tell them you like see the Space Marines as tools. As Dan Abnett wrote it was Guilliman's opinion that Empy saw them as the guardians of tomorrow and such, and now they have gone from failing tool to even worse as you might need 1000 guys just to make one. Thats a lousy number.

Also you did an excellent job covering why Space Marines say goodbye to the IOM. They get tired of the hypocrisy, that they don't get to decide enough, that the Xenos strike deals and all number of reasons. This is what I would call a long shot though, maybe some few even decide to skip over to Xenos, but I would avoid it as they are notoriously anti-Xeno.

I can see mind-control of the chapter master or chief librarian coming into play there when it comes to them siding with Xenos, but that mainly in my mind count towards Eldar, and they rarely operate like that.

Isn't there canon somewhere of a space marine taking up an Eldar blade and becomes possessed by the soul of an Eldar or Eldar God or something? I vaguely recall something like that.

I made Tau-controlled Space Marines as my auxillaries for my army, I just had them as small squads created through extreme indoctrination, drug treatments, and finally a mind-control helmet with a Water-caste "caretaker" with them.

I'm, not for the Tau-thing one bit, but that's me and i can't overcome my dislike for the Tau so i do the next best thing, I pretend they don't even exist. But you can go for the X-Com-solution there I bet, just keep me completely in the dark.

Sounds cool about the Eldar-fluff and that should learn them that the setting is no computer-game, where you can run around like Abbaddon the Despoiler Super Mario-style and pick up stuff to make yourself awesome. Wait a minute. Know what? I liked Abbaddon better when he sucked as a general than now.