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So a friend of mine stated that you can cast spells like Fire-Shield or Invisibility on fortifications as they are "Unit Type: Fortification" and if purchased as your own fortification, it's considered a "scoring unit", so is this possible?

Any help on this would be most appreciated.

What are the rules for selecting a target for blessings? Is it limited to a specific unit type/faction/side?

As long as the power isn't restricted from effecting Fortifications, or only effecting a specific unit type, then its all legit.

Buildings cannot hold objectives unless they are claimed (have had troops inside them). And he cant buff a building from within it (cant cast blessings while embarked on vehicle/building).

So focus on killing the buffing psyker then chuck grenades through the firepoints.

Buildings purchased as part of the army start the game as Claimed, even if they never have models inside them. Just FYI.

 XxRVNGRDxX wrote:
So a friend of mine stated that you can cast spells like Fire-Shield or Invisibility on fortifications as they are "Unit Type: Fortification" and if purchased as your own fortification, it's considered a "scoring unit", so is this possible?

Any help on this would be most appreciated.

(Emphasis mine).

I cant find the underlined anywhere in the BRB, does your friend have a citation so I can find where it says this?

Fortifications are terrain, that is the only thing I found. I have not found a unit type for fortifications.

DeathReaper - While not pertaining to all fortifications, Buildings count as vehicles for the purposes of shooting attacks, psychic powers, close combat, and special rules. (page 110 under "Attacking buildings") Since the fortification in question is a building, this is relevant, although you are correct in stating that fortifications are terrain, since buildings also count as terrain. While this does not give them a unit type, it does allow them to be treated as unit type: vehicle for the purpose of the psychic power, since the definition of "unit" on page 9 says that a vehicle is "considered to be a unit in it's own right", and also on page 112, the second bullet states "a claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army".

So:
- we have Invisibility which targets a friendly unit.
- we have a claimed building which is a friendly unit.
- that building counts as a friendly vehicle unit for targeting purposes.

Seems fine to me.

Bojazz, counter-argument. While they do count as vehicles for the purposes of psychic powers, that is referring to Attacking Buildings. Since Invisibility is not an attack, one could claim you cannot treat the building as a vehicle for the purposes of casting it.

If it is important for the sake of the psychic powers:
-Buildings are undeniably a Unit in the player's army
-Building are only treated as Unit type:Vehicle when affected by attacks and special rules(dealing damage).

JinxDragon would have a field day on this post, shame he's not around...

Happyjew - A title of a section is not a rule. The rules are for targeting buildings, not solely attacking them.

To support this, take this example; in the vehicles section the rule that says vehicles never take leadership/morale tests is under the "vehicles in the assault phase" title. If section titles were rules that would mean that vehicles are only immune to leadership tests in the assault phase.

Furthermore, The only targeting requirement for Invisibility is that it must target a "friendly unit". page 112 says that claimed buildings are a unit in the controlling players army. So it doesn't matter whether you call it a vehicle or not when targeting it with invisibility, as it would not change the outcome of the power.

Buildings and Fortifications are a Terrain type... So solves this one pretty quickly.

fortifications are not units, the psychic powers mentioned affect units.

terrain cannot be affected by powers that affect units e.g. invisibility.

terrain has no unit type, or unit composition.

terrain has terrain types. Terrain is not an unit.

I feel like the above posters didn't read the thread before posting. Or maybe they did and just disagree with the quotes that have been provided but didn't state their reasoning for disagreeing. Either way, I'll post them again for clarity's sake.

Page 112, second bullet:

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

Page 110, under Attacking Buildings:

When determining if a building can be targeted by a shooting attack or psychic power, charged and fought in close combat, or affected by a special rule, treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise.

So a building fortification is most certainly a unit. Specifically, it is a vehicle unit (when being targeted).

Fortifications like an aegis, however, are not buildings and thusly are not targetable or affected by psychic powers that affect units, as blaktoof stated.

A building is most certainly a piece of terrain with the unit type of terrain.

And I will definitely agree with what you quoted from the ATTACKING buildings section.

So yes, these pieces of Unit type, terrain have additional rules so you can attack them and put people inside them. Their restrictions are on their datasheets...

And I did read, it just made no sense trying to stretch the tunes for this... It's terrain... Pretty simple.

As I also mentioned above, the title of a section is not a rule in itself. The rule I quoted was regarding TARGETING buildings. If this was restricted to only attacks, then by that same logic, vehicles would also have to take leadership and morale tests in any phase other than the assault phase, since that rule is located under the "Vehicles in the Assault Phase" Section.

Well reading the section about buildings... It's only treated like a vehicle when you attack it or use the transport rules so you can put guys in there. Otherwise, it's a piece of terrain. Don't see how there is any wiggle room at all to suddenly decide you can target it outside of the attacking phase (only time is not terrain).

There is no "attacking phase". The rule says "when determining if a building can be targeted by a psychic power" Not "When determining if the building can be targeted by a witchfire psychic power". Are you trying to target the building with a psychic power? Yes. So the rule comes into effect.

Similarly - once again in the vehicle section: This is in the "Vehicles in the assault phase.
"vehicles never take morale checks or leadership tests".
Since it says vehicles NEVER take the tests, it does not matter in which phase it happens, the rule will still be invoked. Even if in the psychic phase you target the vehicle with a psychic power requiring it to take a leadership test.

Furthermore - There is no such thing as unit type: terrain. There is also no rule that states terrain is immune from psychic powers and the effects of shooting. The thing that restricts you from casting powers and shooting terrain is that all of those actions require you to target a unit, which terrain is not. So you have a rule that says claimed buildings are units. That means they are unit type: Claimed Building, and when being targeted by a psychic power, or shooting attack, or special rule, they are treated as vehicles.

fortifcations have no unit type or unit composition, they are terrain. they have terrain type:whatever.

as for targetting with a psychic power that is only under attacking buildings.

invisibility is not an attack. In fact no blessings are attacks.

There is no actual permission to target a building outside of attacking it, and as buildings are not units there is no general permission to target them with psychic powers, so you need specific permission (which is only given for attacking buildings).

blaktoof wrote:
buildings are not units

I provided a rules quote saying otherwise.

And again, There is nothing saying that the rule to treat a building as a vehicle for targeting purposes is only relevant to attacks. That is just a section title title. Section titles are not rules. The rule is for targeting buildings. Which you do with blessings and maledictions.

Correct, they say a building only uses aspects of the vehicle transportation rules.

The only other time you treat it like a vehicle is when you attack it.

So it's terrain till you need to figure how many guys go in it or until your opponent attacks it...

they say a building only uses aspects of the vehicle transportation rules.

That is a misquote. The rulebook says that a building uses aspects of transport vehicles with the main difference between them being that buildings can't move and can be claimed. Not being able to be targeted by blessings and maledictions and friendly special rules is a pretty large difference.

Invisibility targets friendly units.
Page 112 says claimed buildings are friendly units.
I don't see how you're saying they're not friendly units when the rules for claiming buildings specifically state that they are.

We have a rule saying that when you target a building with a psychic power, then you treat it as a vehicle. Not when you target a vehicle with an attack. Just target. blessings target friendly units, which claimed buildings are. Since they're targeted, you treat them as a vehicle.

What's the difference between casting invis on an immobilized land raider, and casting invis on a bastion? They're both AV14, they're about the same size, they can both transport models, and neither of them can move. They're both treated as vehicles when targeted by psychic powers and special rules.

Would you also argue that a bastion does not get a 5+ invuln if it has an ork with a kustom force field embarked on it? That's a special rule affecting the bastion, but it's not an "attack".

Bojazz wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
buildings are not units

I provided a rules quote saying otherwise.

And again, There is nothing saying that the rule to treat a building as a vehicle for targeting purposes is only relevant to attacks. That is just a section title title. Section titles are not rules. The rule is for targeting buildings. Which you do with blessings and maledictions.

you provided a rules quote stating that you can treat a building like a vehicle when it is attacked, and when models embark into it or disembark out of it.

that does not mean terrain is an unit.

that also does not mean you can treat it like a vehicle any other time.

as for the KFF and embarked in a fortification, if you are shooting at a fortification you are targeting it as per the rules you quoted. That is an attack, you can use the KFF in such an instance because it is counted as a vehicle during the attack and the KFF has permission to extend its save to a vehicle if the model with it is embarked.

Invisibility etc however are not attacks, and there is no permission to count a fortification as a vehicle (a unit) for targeting.

the difference between a land raider and a building are the rules. One is a piece of terrain that is counted as a vehicle in some ways when you want to embark/disembark from it or target it for an attack, and the other is a vehicle unit.

I"ve quoted/referenced page 112 FOUR times now. Lets go for a 5th.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

Here's a 6th for good measure.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

This does, indeed, mean that claimed buildings are units.

and I"ll repeat myself once again. the other rule I quoted states that buildings count as vehicles when TARGETED, or when affected by special rules.

You say that a building counts as a vehicle for a KFF.
The EXACT same sentence that allows this also allows psychic powers to target buildings as if they were vehicles. Special rules that affect builds, treat the buildings as vehicles. Psychic powers are just before special rules effects in that list.
There is *NO* mention of attacking in that sentence. It literally says, when a psychic power targets a building, treat it as a vehicle. There is no attacking involved, no restriction on what type of psychic power. Nothing. A blessing targets a building. the blessing is a psychic power, and therefore the building is treated as a vehicle.

Bojazz is right on this one. The rules clearly allow for psychic powers to be used on buildings. Also note on pg 110 in bold no less "treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise" If you can use the power on a vehicle, you can use it on a building.

Also claimed buildings don't have to be occupied, any building you bring starts as claimed and remain claimed until a enemy unit takes control of it. So occupied or not, it can score an objective.

Bojazz wrote:
I"ve quoted/referenced page 112 FOUR times now. Lets go for a 5th.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

Here's a 6th for good measure.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

This does, indeed, mean that claimed buildings are units.

and I"ll repeat myself once again. the other rule I quoted states that buildings count as vehicles when TARGETED, or when affected by special rules.

You say that a building counts as a vehicle for a KFF.
The EXACT same sentence that allows this also allows psychic powers to target buildings as if they were vehicles. Special rules that affect builds, treat the buildings as vehicles. Psychic powers are just before special rules effects in that list.
There is *NO* mention of attacking in that sentence. It literally says, when a psychic power targets a building, treat it as a vehicle. There is no attacking involved, no restriction on what type of psychic power. Nothing. A blessing targets a building. the blessing is a psychic power, and therefore the building is treated as a vehicle.

I've never seen such a convincing argument, with such overwhelming supporting evidence, ignored so obtusely. I'm not sure how clearer you could have made this for foto69man and blaktoof, both of which seem to resort to "it is not a unit, it is terrain" as though that is some knock-down clincher, despite you providing a direct BRB quote stating quite literally the opposite.

I feel your pain Bojazz

Looks like this is resolved, and hadn't been posted in for 3 weeks, so I'll lock it up unless there's a good reason to keep it active (if so, please PM me).