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Decided to start a WFB Empire army. Anyone have any general tips about what units to buy first? I already have 20 spearmen and 20 archers. Are their any units that I should just outright avoid? Any units that are auto-includes?

Thanks.

What exactly do you mean by archers? Do they have bows or crossbows? If they have actual bows, they're huntsmen and not very good. Crossbowmen are a decent unit.

The typical Empire list will have a couple large(40-50 model) blocks of Swordsmen and/or Halberdiers. These units will have a couple smaller detachment units(an Empire special mechanic in their book) of crossbows/handguns or more halberdiers to protect the main block. Then there will be some small 10 man units of crossbows/handgunners.

Handgunners are better than crossbows generally. They hit harder and will get the same number of rounds of shooting as the crossbows, the extra 6" of range doesn't help crossbows much. The crossbows are just cheaper.

Then there is usually a unit of Knights and/or Demigryph knights to provide some melee punch.

Empire also always brings some cannons and occasionally Hellblaster volley guns. The Steamtank can substitute in for a cannon as it also has one.

Assuming you at least play 40k incoming Dorian copypasta:

Let's start with the standard 40k fallacies.

You can't netlist fantasy to anywhere near the extend you can in 40k. Fantasy is a game about movement & positioning. About feigns, traps & setting up for 3 turns from now. You cannot just say "give me a basic list" because there isn't one.

Let me put it this way. I have had a 120 point unit of skeletons destroy a 400 point unit of dragon princes (elite heavy cavalry) in ONE round of combat. I sacrificed a unit of 40 point zombie dogs to draw these guys out of formation. Then I charged them in the flank. This means I have a STATIC (before any attacks) combat resolution of 6. I charged for +1, in the flank for +1, with 3 extra ranks of troops for +3 and a banner for an additional +1. He had a static resolution of +1 for a banner. He had 2 elves in base contact meaning those only 2 could fight (you don't get supporting attacks to the flank or rear). He had to do 5 wounds with 4 elf attacks & 2 horse attacks just to NOT LOSE that combat against a unit less than 1/3 of his point cost. He only killed 2, I got lucky & killed one. He lost combat by 4, took a break test at -4ld and ran. I rolled high & caught up with him destroying the unit.

The moral of that story is WHAT you take doesn't matter nearly as much as HOW you use it. That is step one of fantasy, it is NOT 40k don't go in with that mindset.

That said here are some things you will need:
A General - This will automatically be the character with the highest Ld, usually a lord. He allows any unit within 12" to use his Ld instead of their own.
A BSB - This will be a hero level character, the BSB FORCES (note FORCES not ALLOWS) any friendly unit to reroll any failed Ld test. This may also be your general but I don't recommend putting so many eggs in one basket.
A Wizard - Generally anything above 1200 you want a lvl 3 or 4. This may also be your general but I don't recommend putting so many eggs in one basket.

Things to look into:
A Bunker: Generally a tough unit or a unit that can sit back. Essentially they stay out of harms way & act as extra shooting wounds for your mage.
An Anvil: This will usually be a combat block that is durable or hard to break. You get this into combat in order to hold you enemy in place so you can deliver....
A Hammer: This will be a harder hitting but less durable combat unit. Think knights. They come in & hit the flank of whatever i fighting your anvil. This is USUALLY enough to win you the combat pretty heavily.
Shooting: Used to soften up enemy units before combat, often these double as bunkers. Do not expect to delete units with pure shooting like in 40k unless you're spamming heavy shooting or shooting at...
Chaff: Weak cheap fast & disposable. The purpose of this unit is to screen your other units & bloack / redirect / bait charges. This is what my zombie dogs were in the above story.


As for starting now. Don't. Really. A new edition is coming out soon and the rumours are about MAJOR changes, like a complete re write. Hold off for that.

@grey templar you can get "Empire Archers" too. Core choice, same as huntsman but without 'scout' and one point less per model.

To the OP, I have been building an Empire army over the last few months.

I would say buying the battalion is a good idea. You could increase the spearmen to 30 and make a detachment of 10 Halberdiers. (The rest is all useful too).

I would also suggest getting the Empire Wizards set, as Wizards are really fun to use.

There are lots of fun units in the army book, so just take your fancy. For me I really like the outriders so I am putting together a unit now.

Alright, I am going to give you the low down on how to win with the Empire, and win well. I'm not the bragging type, but I win State Tournaments and FLGS tournies all the time with my Empire, even though they are said to be a lower to mid tier army, it's just because people don't know how to use them.

First off, heroes.

You're going to want wizards, get them on foot because you're most likely going to lump them in with your Skirmishing archers, he will get the whole -1 to it, which is pretty amazing!

Warrior priests. These are the bread and butter to making your core really good. You're going to want to put them into a nice, big, juicy unit of 40+ halberds, and watch that gakky core get really good and really annoying, really quick! Their prayers are cheap to cast off, and are amazing!

Empire Generals, Battle Standard Bearers. These are must haves, you are human so you are going to usually have LD 7 across the board. Throw a captain in there as a BSB and instantly you're looking at a higher LD with rerollable Leadership and then "HOLD YOUR GROUND" is incredibly useful as well!

Master Engineers, these are a must have, as they work perfect with Hellblaster volley guns. No one runs Hellblasters a lot, but they can terrify anyone who isn't expecting it. A shotgun blast of STR 5 Armor piercing shots shooting at BS 4 is going to kill anything. I always take mine bare.

Alright, now to core.

You're going to want Archers and Halberds, these are your bread and butter for winning. I have Spearmen, Halberds, and Swordmen just because I like to have a good variety of troops, but if you're looking to win, Halberds are the way to go.

Imperial Knights are also good to have, You can run them as core and often you can find good use for them as a shock charge on your flanks.

Now Specials.

CANNON. You will want these, No, let me rephrase, you NEED these. You know that Dragon? Boom, it's dead. That Giant coming your way? Boom it's dead. Any T8 creature? Boom it's dead. Get good with these and learn how to shoot and aim with them because they are often your only answer to some giant units. Master Engineers can work well here too!

Demigryph Knights. You want to have these, and at least two units of them. They are one of the, if arguably the best unit that the Empire has in it's ranks. I do not care what anyone says, you arm them with Halberds and you get them in the fight. They often are going to run down units in one turn and often will get tar pitted if you hit the wrong things, so that STR 5 is much better all the time than just STR 6 for one round of combat. GET THEM.

Rare units.

Hellblaster Volley gun. Get one, put it on a flank, watch your opponant's monstrous infantry or cavalry disappear in one turn. That's about it, put a Master Engineer with it to make sure that you're getting to re roll one of them arty dice seeing as you have a 50% chance of getting a missfire and only getting half your shots.

Luminark of Hysh. I have recently been playing around with this, and I am liking it both as a support unit and as a chariot. People tend to forget about it as it is essentially a mobile cannon and will hit your blocks of infantry instead of it. They tend to forget it is a chariot that has more than a STR 8 cannon on wheels, It will get impact hits at STR 5, and that is going to make anyone cry if working with a unit of infantry. Get it, it also gives a +6 ward save to units nearby and you automatically get a dispel dice every turn, pretty nice!

I'm here to answer any questions!

Thank you all for the info, I appreciate you taking the time to give me more then 1-2 sentence answers. I've played 40k for a long time and did well, but it's gotten a bit boring. Time to try something new.

I know there's a new edition coming, but I don't believe the rumors saying that whole armies are suddenly going to be unplayable when 9th drops. And if even if some units become bad, I'll just change it. This is GW we're talking about, steadily buying new models is a part of my hobby. Better to roll with it then get bitter.

Anyways, I really like knights (regular and those newer griffon-looking ones), they seem cool. I think I'm going to grab the battalion box, some heroes and play some smaller point games before I build up.

So 40-50 is the unit size norm? 10 front, 4 deep; or the other way around? I played some WFB back when it was lizardmen and Bretoonians in the starter set. The only thing I really remember is that 20-man units seemed to be big enough.

 Cortez667 wrote:


So 40-50 is the unit size norm? 10 front, 4 deep; or the other way around? I played some WFB back when it was lizardmen and Bretoonians in the starter set. The only thing I really remember is that 20-man units seemed to be big enough.

Yes, and No. The empire player I know usually has one big block of 50-60 halberds with 2 detachments of 20-25. That said MOST units will be:

Cavalry - 5 OR 15
Monsterous Infantry / Cavalry - 3 or 6
Infantry 20+. 20 still works fine in some situiations, but sometimes you want up to 60ish.
Ranged - 10-16. 2 ranks of 5-8

40-50 is possible, but by no means the norm.

 Cortez667 wrote:

So 40-50 is the unit size norm? 10 front, 4 deep; or the other way around? I played some WFB back when it was lizardmen and Bretoonians in the starter set. The only thing I really remember is that 20-man units seemed to be big enough.

Depends on the unit and what do you want it for.

For instance Swordmen at WS 4 S3 and A1 inherently dont make for the best offensive unit, even if you augmented them with magic, there are Halberdiers are better offensivelly at S4. What they do have is survivavility, when compared to halberdiers, swordsmen will get hit on average on 4s instead of 3s will have parry save and some times armor save instead of no saves at all. So they are better used to set up counter charges, you do this by forcing your opponent to charge you and then you flank them with a hard hitting unit. For this, you dont need 50 models, if you run the math you will see that resieving a charge at WS 4 S5 and A15 total, will make you loose about 5 guys. If you go 5 wide and 30 strong that means you will have 4 additional ranks after your casualties. Now WS 4 S5 A15 are some rather elite stats, we are talking about 2 attacks per model at high str and ws so comparatively your 4 ranks while still loosing combat will likely mean you get to be steadfast thus you set up the enemy unit to be hit on the flank by your hard hitters say demigrif. 30 swordmen we are talking about 230sh points which is acceptable for a reliable anvil.

The one unit i would advice to stay away from are Grate Swords. They are simply overpriced for what they do. They are suborn so they are always steadfast and hardish hitters, but they are too expensive and their survivability is not that grate. Ideally you would actually want them as detachments, 15 strong would be nice, but they cant be dets, so you have to take them as main units, to big they become too expensive and can not compete with other deathstars out there, too small and their survivability becomes an issue for their point cost, thus they are neither here nor there. I think their best use is as a small flanking unit 15to20 which you can use to deny ranks.

As far as characters go, you have to remember the golden rule, no matter what you do his killer kitted character will always be better than yours. But yours are cheap spameable and bring a lot of utility AND can make a GOTCHA character with the speculum if you give it to a wizard or a Priest.
Talking utility, you can if i remember correctly, bring something stupid like 5 guys on foot with 2+ armor or better, that is way above the norm for the rest of the armies, slap 2 handed weapons on them and you get many characters that pack some decent punch and offer siginificative buffs to your units.
Examples of cheaper characters with important buffs are:
Captain of the empire with grate weapon, Battle standard bearer and Armor of meteoric iron at about 140 points. Thats 3 str 6 attacks, cold blooded for the unit and dets, rerolls morale and 1+ save.
Warrior priest, grate weapon, Armor of silvered sTeel. Brings ld 8, hattred, prayers and 2 str 6 attacks. Very nice on a big block of halberdiers.
General of the empire, plus enchanted shield or 1 of the 3 helms, brings him down to sv2+, for about 100sh points and leaves you room for a magic weapon in case you want to add combat res to a unit, and cold blood.
Same goes for the Captain.
Virtually all of your armored characters on horse can make it to 1+, gote and captains with mundane, priests with a helm or enchanted shield.

I've seen a lot of recommendations to not put shields on spearmen and halberdiers, because they won't get the save in CC. Do you guys have an opinion on that?

 Cortez667 wrote:
I've seen a lot of recommendations to not put shields on spearmen and halberdiers, because they won't get the save in CC. Do you guys have an opinion on that?

Problem with spearmen is that they are middle of the road, they hit more than swordsmen but less than halberdiers, and are tougher than halberdiers but softer than swords. Problem with shields is that everyone and their mother hits with str 4 or more this edition with the only notable exeptions being skaven and goblins. Also, a shield increases the mini cost 20% but even against str 3 it gives you only 16% additional survivability. So in essence you are better off just buying more bodies.

The other thing to note is halberds require two hands, no never take shields & halberds as you will only get the armor benefit vs shooting attacks and no parry.

My advice is simple: wait. If you havent caught on, End Times is doing a big shakeup of the entire setting in preparation for 9th Ed. later this year, almost everyone with an ounce of sense is expecting there to be a pretty big shakeup to the rules as a result.

chaos0xomega wrote:
My advice is simple: wait. If you havent caught on, End Times is doing a big shakeup of the entire setting in preparation for 9th Ed. later this year, almost everyone with an ounce of sense is expecting there to be a pretty big shakeup to the rules as a result.

As I stated above, I don't mind spending more money when 9th drops. I don't believe the rumors that most models will become obsolete in 9th. But thanks for your concern.

 Cortez667 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My advice is simple: wait. If you havent caught on, End Times is doing a big shakeup of the entire setting in preparation for 9th Ed. later this year, almost everyone with an ounce of sense is expecting there to be a pretty big shakeup to the rules as a result.

As I stated above, I don't mind spending more money when 9th drops. I don't believe the rumors that most models will become obsolete in 9th. But thanks for your concern.

It's not about them becoming obsolete. It's that if it goes to a skirmish size then a lot of models will be unnecessary as the game size will shrink. So those 60 halberdiers you buy know you may only need 10 in 9th.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My advice is simple: wait. If you havent caught on, End Times is doing a big shakeup of the entire setting in preparation for 9th Ed. later this year, almost everyone with an ounce of sense is expecting there to be a pretty big shakeup to the rules as a result.

As I stated above, I don't mind spending more money when 9th drops. I don't believe the rumors that most models will become obsolete in 9th. But thanks for your concern.

It's not about them becoming obsolete. It's that if it goes to a skirmish size then a lot of models will be unnecessary as the game size will shrink. So those 60 halberdiers you buy know you may only need 10 in 9th.

If that's the case, you could then field 6 "squads" of Halberdiers. I don't think having too many models has ever been a problem

There is a possibility that large numbers of models will become obsolete. Some rumors I've been hearing are that the new combined human faction will no longer have things like cannon/mortars/steamtanks/blackpowder weapons. I would have thought that to be bs, and then in the newest end times book it turns out that Nuln is completely destroyed and its industry picked clean by the Skaven. Now it looks almost distinctly possible that that rumor is indeed true. Similarly, per the fluff, the Slann have all disappeared, abandoning the Lizardmen to their fate... the fate of the Lizardmen is entirely unknown, since they also disappeared.

And while 'too many models' might not be a problem, if you have 60 halbs and the most models you will ever use in a game of WHFB 9th is 20, then you have 40 too many halbs.

I highly doubt any models will become obsolete. Especially since some of the models most rumored to be made obsolete are also the newest.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I highly doubt any models will become obsolete. Especially since some of the models most rumored to be made obsolete are also the newest.

I agree. I think we are likely to see many models go OOP especially when combined armies have similar kits (for example Bret Men-At-Arms being dropped in favour of Empire State Troopers), but I would think all models will continue to have options in 9th (with old special characters still being able to be fielded as generic captains.)

I believe that most of the Finecast kits will go bye-bye. They show up intermittently on the GW page as in-stock/out-of-stock/no longer available already and I think GW will be happy to see them go (simply for not having to manage their inventory).

9th should serve as a good jumping-off point for removing kits that aren't plastic. For example, most of what may survive in the Bretonnian line will be what's in the battalion box (pegasus, knights of the round/errant, and men-at-arms), while stuff like questing knights, grail knights, and trebuchets will be removed. If you repeat this process through all of the WHFB armies, you knock out a substantial amount of the inventory that GW simply has no more interest in (which Finecast so reviled and the company's direction so strongly against metal models).

So, with that in mind kits won't necessarily become obsolete. But that unit of questing knights is going to become some sort of generic "armored knights," and so people will be having to ask themselves if that $75 price tag was worth it for an equivalent kit that is being sold at a much cheaper price point.