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Played game.
I said I was bringing my first company fluff list.
He said what he was taking was secret.

I apologize for not finishing all of my Terminators, but the take ~1 hour to paint each.
My opponent says "Painting isn't fun and obscures all the DEATLS!"

Screw it, batrep.

Enemy List-


My List-


Mission: Purge
Psychic Powers:
Terminator Libby- Invisibility, Dominate, "Regroupy one"
Paladins- HammerHand
Strike- HammerHand
Purifiers- Cleansing Flame, Hammerhand


The Paladins were invisible and Hammerhanded the whole game. I didn't want to say that every turn.
Deployment:
He went first. Paladins and Libby were in Land Raider.




Turn 1-
Lootas fired and killed the Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer on the Purplenator squad. Things moved. Not much happened.

My Purplenator squad moved out of the Lootas LOS, and the Land Raider moved towards the enemy line.


Turn 2 and 3
The Land Raider arrived from reserves and fired at my Land Raider, doing nothing. The Berzerkers moved, and the Purifiers DSed in near a building.

Everything Deep Struck. My Tactical Terminators killed 2 Strike Squad GKs, and my Assault terminators ran to spread out. My Land Raider advanced and fired it's Lascannons, stunning the enemy LR.

The Khorne Berzerkers moved around my Assault Terminators, the Land Raider moved (I know it was stunned, but didn't call him on this because I was preoccupied with asking a fluff question to the manager) and the Paladins disembarked. The Land Raider shot my Land Raider with both of it's Lascannons, doing 2 HP and immobilising it. Everything shot, killing 5 Assault Termies, and then all units but the Lootas charged the Assault Termies. The Assault Termies killed a single Paladin, but died horribly. The Strike Squad charged the Tactical Termies, killing 3 and taking 9 casualties.

My 5-man unit of Assault Termies charged the Purifiers, killing 4. My Purplenators shot at some random unit (Can't remember), and the Tactical Termies finally killed the last Strike Squad guy. The Land Raider fired at the enemy Land Raider, doing nothing.















Turn 4-
Paladins charged the Assault Termies, wiping them out and taking 1 casualty. The Chaos Terminators charged my Purplenators. Mutually assured destruction happened, both units died.
The Zerkers and Dreadknight moved towards the Tactical Terminators.

My Tactical Terminators shot at the Berzerkers, killing 1.

Turn 5-

I said GG and painted for 2 hours.

What did I do wrong? Help me Internet!

Honestly its hard to give advice on an unbound game(IMO) there's just too many variables.

 Hückleberry wrote:
Honestly its hard to give advice on an unbound game(IMO) there's just too many variables.

So you can't help in any way?

 Verviedi wrote:

 Hückleberry wrote:
Honestly its hard to give advice on an unbound game(IMO) there's just too many variables.

So you can't help in any way?

Stick to bound games.

I don't play SM, but I think there's some pretty obvious factors at work here. First of all, while unbound is tough to balance due to it's free-form nature, you and your opponent's unbound lists are wildly different in style. You brought a more fluffy, interesting army - solely terminators and a heavy assault vehicle. Some people might say that's why unbound was implemented, so people could do stuff like that. May not be optimal, but is certainly cool, and there's plenty of potential for backstory as a strike force of terminators.

On the other hand, your opponent brought whatever he wanted from three completely different armies. I can see why he wouldn't tell you what he was taking, because it's a load of crap. His list is why people think unbound is a completely garbage mechanic that has no place outside of game with friends. He brought the guys who would mesh best with the list, and without bound restricting him, it gives him a pretty solid power boost. His list is just better than yours, and I can say that as someone who's never played with any of those models. It covers all his bases, uses some very strong units (Like the dreadknight) and you're using some units that people consider underwhelming, like CC Terminators.

If you want my advice, here's what I'd say. 1: Don't play unbound, unless your opponent is bringing an equally fun list. I think unbound is an interesting mechanic that opens up the opportunity for some fun shenanigans, but he was just using it so he could abuse the best units out of all the codices. 2: If your opponent won't tell you his list, especially after you've told him what you're bringing, reconsider taking a game with him. As I said before, I'm not surprised he didn't tell you. I wouldn't have taken a game with him after seeing that list.

This isn't advice, but it sounds like the guy you're playing is a real ***hole. The fact that you told him you were bringing a fluff list and he brought that **** really speaks to his character. And painting 'obscures the details'? I can only assume he's painting with a squirtgun. Or more likely, he's heavy handed and doesn't thin his paints. Or even more likely, he's a powergamer and just slaps his models together so he can get them on the table. If you want to keep playing a fun list, find some other, more fun people to play with. If you keep taking games with this guy, prepare to bring a more competitive list, don't tell him your list before hand, and play bound or be stricter about what's allowed to be brought.

Hope that helps a bit, cheers

 Verviedi wrote:

 Hückleberry wrote:
Honestly its hard to give advice on an unbound game(IMO) there's just too many variables.

So you can't help in any way?

I have some suggestions. Apologies if anything I say is contradicted by the pictures - I can't see em:

a) The lootas fired, killing the Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Which means the terminators with said weapons were at the front of the squad. Don't do this. Assault Cannons should always have a dude in front of them to eat bullets for them, and a heavy flamer should only move up in front the turn you intend to fire it.

b) Terminators are able to deep strike, but once on the ground they're slow and unmanouvrable, and they want to be at close range to really make their relentless firepower and power fists shine. Try not to footslog towards a gun-line with them; land raiders or teleporting are the way to go.

c) Having over 400 points in one unit that can only go in one direction and only engage one opponent at once makes you somewhat inflexible. Possibly still a good idea in a kill points game, but it depends.

d) What Chapter Tactics were you using? They don't get mentioned, and are an important part of your army list.

e) Ultimately, "Then all units but the lootas charged the assault terminators" is where you lost it. Letting a unit worth over four hundred points get 'mobbed' on your opponent's terms is never going to end well. This is why assault terminators work best with an assault transport, so they move up, get out, and get to charge immediately.

f) An Invisible Paladin unit is always going to be trouble. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do about it as a pure 1st company force - librarians are good for denying incoming hostile powers, but not great at stopping an enemy boosting himself up with blessings. That said, your thunderhammer squad could have made a fair showing if that was the only unit they had to fight, due to their storm shields.

g) Letting the stunned land raider move and debuss the paladins got said paladins into the fight, which lost you your assault terminators, which arguably lost you the game. So...yeah. Hope you got a good answer to that question!


If you want an idea for a battleforged take on your '1st company army', there are several versions you could look at:

a) Counts-as-Deathwing - you get fearlessness and the ability to deliver your guys in a lethally co-ordinated teleport strike, plus they gain objective secured.
b) Counts-as-Wolf Guard - there are a couple of Wolf Guard Terminator formations, and the Champions of Fenris allows you to take an army of purely elites choices. Wolf Guard are more expensive when equipped the same as regular termiators - their advantages are customisability (especially combi-weapons), counterattack, access to drop pods, and the lethality of the space wolve's unique versions of lighting claws.
c) Counts-as-Archangels - the Blood Angels 1st Company can mix and match terminators and veteran units. Furious charge is nice, but pairs very well with their unique command benefit - +1 initiative on the charge. What S5, I5 lightning claw terminators will do to space marines on the charge has to be seen to be believed.
d) Strike Force Ultra formation - lets you use any Codex: Space Marines chapter tactics, and again potentially delivers dudes on the first turn. Hammer of wrath on assault terminators, and (effectively) battle focus on tactical terminators aren't devastating, but are nice perks, and the formation has organic transports for the assault terminators.

 SweaterKittens wrote:
I don't play SM, but I think there's some pretty obvious factors at work here. First of all, while unbound is tough to balance due to it's free-form nature, you and your opponent's unbound lists are wildly different in style. You brought a more fluffy, interesting army - solely terminators and a heavy assault vehicle. Some people might say that's why unbound was implemented, so people could do stuff like that. May not be optimal, but is certainly cool, and there's plenty of potential for backstory as a strike force of terminators.

I know
I'm planning on adding two blinged up "Sternguard Squads" (Tactical Squads) to serve as Troops so I'm not Unbound.

On the other hand, your opponent brought whatever he wanted from three completely different armies. I can see why he wouldn't tell you what he was taking, because it's a load of crap. His list is why people think unbound is a completely garbage mechanic that has no place outside of game with friends. He brought the guys who would mesh best with the list, and without bound restricting him, it gives him a pretty solid power boost. His list is just better than yours, and I can say that as someone who's never played with any of those models. It covers all his bases, uses some very strong units (Like the dreadknight) and you're using some units that people consider underwhelming, like CC Terminators.

I'm aware of this, but for some reason he thinks Terminators are undercosted (His reasoming is that they're only 40 points for a 2+ save when GK Paladins are 55 points).
I use the models because I like them, and I am trying to win with the models I like. As soon as he put those models down, I knew that I shouldn't play against it, but I knew it wa sthe only chance I had of getting a game that day...

If you want my advice, here's what I'd say. 1: Don't play unbound, unless your opponent is bringing an equally fun list. I think unbound is an interesting mechanic that opens up the opportunity for some fun shenanigans, but he was just using it so he could abuse the best units out of all the codices. 2: If your opponent won't tell you his list, especially after you've told him what you're bringing, reconsider taking a game with him. As I said before, I'm not surprised he didn't tell you. I wouldn't have taken a game with him after seeing that list.

I will look at his list if I play him again, and am also making a fluffy 1st Company list that is Battleforged (Using converted Tactical Marines painted like Sternguard as Tactical Squads in Razorbacks, and converted Assault Marines painted like Vanguard Vets as Assault Marines)
My reasoning is that in the 1st Company, those squads WOULD be in the Troops and Fast Attack slot.
As soon as I saw the grey mess he put down, I knew I didn't want to play it, but sadly I knew it was my only chance at a game.

This isn't advice, but it sounds like the guy you're playing is a real ***hole. The fact that you told him you were bringing a fluff list and he brought that **** really speaks to his character. And painting 'obscures the details'? I can only assume he's painting with a squirtgun. Or more likely, he's heavy handed and doesn't thin his paints. Or even more likely, he's a powergamer and just slaps his models together so he can get them on the table. If you want to keep playing a fun list, find some other, more fun people to play with. If you keep taking games with this guy, prepare to bring a more competitive list, don't tell him your list before hand, and play bound or be stricter about what's allowed to be brought.

If I play another game with him, I'll bring something ridiculous like 5 Flyers.
And also, for some reason, he thinks Terminators are OP because they have 2+ saves for only 40 points.

Hope that helps a bit, cheers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Hückleberry wrote:
Honestly its hard to give advice on an unbound game(IMO) there's just too many variables.

So you can't help in any way?

I have some suggestions. Apologies if anything I say is contradicted by the pictures - I can't see em:

a) The lootas fired, killing the Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Which means the terminators with said weapons were at the front of the squad. Don't do this. Assault Cannons should always have a dude in front of them to eat bullets for them, and a heavy flamer should only move up in front the turn you intend to fire it.

b) Terminators are able to deep strike, but once on the ground they're slow and unmanouvrable, and they want to be at close range to really make their relentless firepower and power fists shine. Try not to footslog towards a gun-line with them; land raiders or teleporting are the way to go.

c) Having over 400 points in one unit that can only go in one direction and only engage one opponent at once makes you somewhat inflexible. Possibly still a good idea in a kill points game, but it depends.

d) What Chapter Tactics were you using? They don't get mentioned, and are an important part of your army list.

e) Ultimately, "Then all units but the lootas charged the assault terminators" is where you lost it. Letting a unit worth over four hundred points get 'mobbed' on your opponent's terms is never going to end well. This is why assault terminators work best with an assault transport, so they move up, get out, and get to charge immediately.

f) An Invisible Paladin unit is always going to be trouble. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do about it as a pure 1st company force - librarians are good for denying incoming hostile powers, but not great at stopping an enemy boosting himself up with blessings. That said, your thunderhammer squad could have made a fair showing if that was the only unit they had to fight, due to their storm shields.

g) Letting the stunned land raider move and debuss the paladins got said paladins into the fight, which lost you your assault terminators, which arguably lost you the game. So...yeah. Hope you got a good answer to that question!


If you want an idea for a battleforged take on your '1st company army', there are several versions you could look at:

a) Counts-as-Deathwing - you get fearlessness and the ability to deliver your guys in a lethally co-ordinated teleport strike, plus they gain objective secured.
b) Counts-as-Wolf Guard - there are a couple of Wolf Guard Terminator formations, and the Champions of Fenris allows you to take an army of purely elites choices. Wolf Guard are more expensive when equipped the same as regular termiators - their advantages are customisability (especially combi-weapons), counterattack, access to drop pods, and the lethality of the space wolve's unique versions of lighting claws.
c) Counts-as-Archangels - the Blood Angels 1st Company can mix and match terminators and veteran units. Furious charge is nice, but pairs very well with their unique command benefit - +1 initiative on the charge. What S5, I5 lightning claw terminators will do to space marines on the charge has to be seen to be believed.
d) Strike Force Ultra formation - lets you use any Codex: Space Marines chapter tactics, and again potentially delivers dudes on the first turn. Hammer of wrath on assault terminators, and (effectively) battle focus on tactical terminators aren't devastating, but are nice perks, and the formation has organic transports for the assault terminators.

I was using IF chapter tactics, because Celestial Guard are Crimson Fists successors.
Where do I get the rules for Strike Force Ultra?

It's a Black Library dataslate - go to www.blacklibrary.com and have a nose around the "Digital Editions" section.

He knows his Chaos Terminators cost less points per model than Imperial ones, right?

Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics are okay, I guess, but unfortunately you're never going to win a small arms fight with terminators, bolter drill or not.
The Sentinals of Terra's Close Ranged Bolter Drill might do a bit more (since you're going to want to be at close range), or you might want to look at other Imperial Fist Successor Chapter tactics - either Black Templars, or Executioners (have a look at Forgeworld's page).

locarno24 wrote:
It's a Black Library dataslate - go to www.blacklibrary.com and have a nose around the "Digital Editions" section.

He knows his Chaos Terminators cost less points per model than Imperial ones, right?

Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics are okay, I guess, but unfortunately you're never going to win a small arms fight with terminators, bolter drill or not.
The Sentinals of Terra's Close Ranged Bolter Drill might do a bit more (since you're going to want to be at close range), or you might want to look at other Imperial Fist Successor Chapter tactics - either Black Templars, or Executioners (have a look at Forgeworld's page).

Black Templars = Do not like
Executioners = Blergh.
I somewhat like the Sentinels of Terra.

That is a lot of terminators!!!!

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
That is a lot of terminators!!!!

I'm actually capable of fielding up to 55.

Oh i thought you couldnt do batreps in gw or is that just vid bat reps?

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Oh i thought you couldnt do batreps in gw or is that just vid bat reps?

I've never heard that rule.

Is the first image of his deployment?

That looks like less than 12" between the GK and Zerks.

If it is, grats you win on technicality due to him setting up illegally.

Batrep 2-
VS Ultramarines!

Enemy List:


My List


Mission: Relic

Psychic Powers:
Terminator Librarian-
Shrouding
Dominate

Librarian-
Not invisibility (Cannot remember)

Deployment-
I went first. He seized the initiative.



Turn 1-
Everything moved forward.
The Grav Cents took two HP off the Land Raider and immbolised it.

My Captain's squad disembarked and moved towards the Relic. The foot CC Terminators hid behind a building. My Tactical Terminators shot at the Command Squad, doing nothing. The Land Raider's Assault Cannon also fired at the Command Squad, doing nothing.


Turn 2-
The Grav Centurions killed the Land Raider. The Ultramarines Assault Terminators moved forward, and the Sternguard and Command Squad shot and killed a Storm Shield terminator and dealing 2 wounds to the Captain. The Command Squad charged the Captain's squad. The challenge was a miserable fail fest, with one after one being rolled. The Assault Terminators killed one TH/SS Command Squad guy, and in return lost 3 Assault Terminators.


My Tactical Terminators shot into the Ultramarines Assault Terminators, doing zilch. The Assault Terminator squad hiding behind a building charged the Vanguard Vets inside, killing 2 and losing 3. My Captain finally killed the Company Champion, and was promptly brutally murdered by a Thunder Hammer. The Assault Terminators fighting the company command squad were wiped... One... One... One...

Turn 3-
The Sternguard grabbed the Relic. The Ultramarines Assault Terminators charged my Tactical Terminators. Mutually assured destruction happened, with 3 Assault Terminators and 8 Tactical Terminators dying. My epic one-rolling skills prevented the squad from running.

At the end of the turn, there was no purple left on the board.
GG.


Thoughts-
Good God, my rolling was awful. I did not make a SINGLE 5+ invul, and about half the dice I rolled were 1s.
I probably would have won if I had hid the Land Raider out of range of the Grav Centurions. The Flamestorm cannons were completely useless.

I will pick up either another Land Raider, a Stormraven, or a Tactical Squad next. I can convert the Tactical Squad to be Sternguard, or have another delivery system for Termies.

So due to the horrific performance of my Terminator lists...
I will be mixing in some Sternguard and Vanguard vets. Anyone have any ideas as to what the best loadouts for Sternguard and Vanguards are?

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Is the first image of his deployment?

That looks like less than 12" between the GK and Zerks.

If it is, grats you win on technicality due to him setting up illegally.

Nope. I measured, it was exactly 12"