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 odinsgrandson wrote:
Does anyone else think that the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle might have a Mordheim-esq element?

The rumors basically say that the new game will be playable at a skirmish level, instead of always working with huge companies of minis.

I think it makes a lot of sense for GW to roll Mordheim into WFB. Simply make a skirmish format for WFB, rather than requiring a new rulebook.

That way, if you hook people with the skirmish game, they're more likely to eventually 'up grade' to large WFB armies (they'll already have the rulebook).


There's always the possibility that a big change that GW makes might actually include some good things too.

No, the rumours don't say anything like that, people are just inferring that because of the change to round bases.

And are taking the round bases being used on larger models as an indicator that round bases will be used on all models.

The Auld Grump

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Genoside07 wrote: "first one is free"

Yeah, that won't happen with GW products.

Our local GW was under a cinema, and when the hobbit premiered there was a box with each ticket containing a well painted model (was free with ticket) that came with a note saying something along the lines of " come see us downstairs to learn how to play" and i thought that was a good idea.

Still unknown if the manager paid for it out of his own pocket or not (he was a absolute legend) but it’s the thought that counts

The games would sell well, I think hardbacks. Especially if the latter part of the hardback had a modeling section giving tips on "repurposing miniatures" from the main ranges. that way, it would only be the book itself to ell and it would boost sales from the main lines.
its true from what I've seen, hardly anyone actually used the "official" models.

I've re-purposed the Chaos Cultists from the DV boxed set as a Goliath gang..........yeah they aren't as beefy but I get to use them all WYSIWYG that way.

We still play Necromunda just as much as we play 40k if I'm honest.

The skirmish games were probably ditched as they don't make tons of money, like the bigger table top versions of 40k and WHFB. Once you've got 10-20 gangers you've got more than enough.

I have got three gangs though, and bought plenty of gribblies from heresy miniatures to use in our campaign.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't think Dark Future was taken up by anyone. What happened was that a different line of books called Dark Future appeared and even though GW had stopped making any Dark Future models or books, they sued them anyway.

EVIL INC wrote:
...Never tried but SO wanted to- the space ship one, Dark future and mordheim…

... maybe even Dark Future if they rebooted it. (although i think they may have sold the rights to dark future. i remember someone telling me that the novels were picked up by someone else and I really wanted to see how some of them "wound up".

Just to clarify, Dark Future was never a supported part of specialist games. GW simply put the rules up on the website for free for a few years. Dark Future was dead for well over a decade before the "Specialist Games" division was created. Of course (probably due to a very poor wikipedia entry) alot of folks don't realize that most of what we call "Specialist Games" were not originally under the "Specialist Games" label and were in fact originally part of the core family of GW games.

Those who gamed in the 90's will recall major store and WD support for games like Necromunda, Epic, Gorkamorka and Mordheim. Specialist Games is a relatively recent invention and was created '02. Supposedly formed to support these and others not part of GW's 3-game focus, but within a few years it was clear that Specialist games was where games go to die. IIRC, no new specialist games products have been produced since 2005 or so and the division was folded in 2009.

Oh, I know dark Future was not a "specialist game". Doesnt mean I dont remember reading about it in White Dwarf and wanting to play it back in the 80s. lol
I think I have the rules printed off somewhere (in a box most likely lol)

How could I forget epic?!?! Especially after the thousands I forked over for it and then later having had almost all of it stolen. That was one of my gaming group's favorite games we played.

The 'Specialist Games' label started to spell the end for specialist games IMO. Before that they were just games in their catalog and all got reasonable coverage. But after they created that term it just became a way to group everything that wasn't Fantasy or 40K into an "everything else" label and push it into obscurity. The 'Specialist Games' tab on their website became a graveyard for all those games they'd lost interest in but presumably had some stock sitting around to use up.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The 'Specialist Games' label started to spell the end for specialist games IMO. Before that they were just games in their catalog and all got reasonable coverage. But after they created that term it just became a way to group everything that wasn't Fantasy or 40K into an "everything else" label and push it into obscurity. The 'Specialist Games' tab on their website became a graveyard for all those games they'd lost interest in but presumably had some stock sitting around to use up.

And those same games were, sadly, some of their very best games.

The Auld Grump

Epic is and will most likely always will be the best game GW somehow managed to make, the rules were well thought out and tight, the minis were nice, I still feel its hard to believe that GW actually made that game.

Because every business owner knows that diversification of your product line and monopolizing all parts of your market is a stupid, stupid, stupid idea. Amirite guys!

It would absolutely work ( well not now with so many companies producing such scales of games and doing a great job with it ) in a business sense as well. Each pack can be a whole new faction or an expansion too an existing faction. The affordability too do this is one of the big reasons alone you will see more and more 28mm games done this way, instead of having to invest untold tens of thousands to get a faction starting up you can invest much less to get several factions going in a game.

It can turn over just as many numbers , look at infinity an amazing growing and successful company ( though their games are nothing like the two GW produced they are still a high individual miniature count game). Strange Aeons is another game I have played and that game has a lot of similarities with these two games and it just did an amazing kickstarter reaching over their 10000 goal in the first day.

These types of games hybrid wargaming with lite RPGs and are really fantastic types of games that I think we will all see more of in the market ( ) as it continues too grow. It is affordable for new companies to come out and get a running game product out for such games. They can have some fantastic character and managing your force in between games adds a whole other level to the game aspect.

The only reason these two games were not selling as well was because GW stopped supporting them at all. I highly doubt they were taking up casting times unless they really were using the cheapest and poorest casting materials around ( like their Finecast ). This style of game to be honest I feel is one of the game types that best suit 28mm scale gaming, they even still too this day have fan groups for those two which just shows how strong of a product it was for them.

I have played Epic myself and I can say it truly is probably their best game too this day, it was solid , scaled right and everything felt good. The mechanics fit the scale and were simple and easy too learn. 6mm miniatures are quite affordable too produce and have sculpted that the average joe could easily fund a faction or two of their own. The Specialist games could still be thriving and I think their biggest product if they had supported them but they didn't and that is why they went out.

However why would I complain? its been great for the wargaming hobby as a whole as so many companies have filled these gaps GW have left for us and the market has been thriving and growing with these types of games that " doesn't support their business model" so I am sure they can be just as every bit profitable as any large scale game I would even argue more so because how the market has been moving in the last few years. Players want games that do not take hours too play, they want games that move quicker so they can play more in a day and get a few in before they have to rush off home or to work. I feel even mantic is seeing this move and this is why they are moving towards smaller scale games.

In the end these game types are just as profitable and much easier too fund and get on their feet and running than larger scale games, they can attract younger and new players much easier with low investment cost. Well and for those who say but that's all they will buy? you produce several different factions expansions too those factions and you will see players purchasing several forces and expanding their current forces, trying out new unit types, different races and play styles. You can sell just as well you just need too plan for it which is no different from any other scale and type of wargame out their.

best regards - Shawn.

 notprop wrote:

I have hopes that the obvious failure of the Hobbit licence will see in-part a refocusing on these much neglected lines but we shall see.

The failure of the Hopbbit licence isn't due to a weak IP, but mismanagement and trying to treat it like a combination of their current high-price "premium" product, along with (an attempt to) make it "more premium" due to their perspective on the "Tolkien collectors" market.

I'm not sure I want to see what GW would do to an "updated" release of Mordheim.

 -Loki- wrote:

StraightSilver wrote:
In a nutshell small scale skirmish games no longer fit into GW's business model.

In other words games where you only need maybe up to a dozen figures to play just aren't what GW are about these days, they want to sell you as many models as they possibly can.

This actually doesn't make sense, given that GW know the majority of their customers don't stay with them long enough to dump a full army worth of money into their bank account. Skirmish games are perfect for what they consider their core market - kids that dump one birthday and one Christmas worth of money into the hobby.

A game like Necromunda or Mordheim would be far more attractive to those they consider their core market, since the idea of getting a complete game for that money would draw more customers.

They were worried that these short term customers would only buy Necromunda + a gang, when the figured without Necromunda they'd instead buy 40K + an army, before leaving.

They saw the specialist games as a cheap option to get into the hobby, and figured that was all that stopped people spending more, so canned them to allow them to spend more. It's just another classic example of them having no clue *why* people buy their products.

The sad fact is that GW did not see any future profit with these games. Despite them being an intro to the larger scale WHFB and 40K for many the up tops at GW only saw statistics and money. And when they looked at the SG's and saw that they where providing a game where the average player could spend about £30-£60 and have an entire force or two they decided that it was 'not profitable' to them. Ignoring, or more likely just plainly not seeing, the facts that such games where an interesting diversion, a buy-in to the larger games or a source of unusual and custom miniatures and units for the larger games, they decided that it was best just to close them down.

Technically, the dropping began back in 1995 with Man O'War, a great small scale navy game set in the WHFB universe. Essentially the WHFB version of BFG it was dropped under the pretence that 'the moulds have worn out' despite being in production for a scant two years. It was shortly after that when the first signs of the closeting of the SG's came to light with them being removed from the main stores. I can still remember when Mordheim and Necromunda had shelf space at my local GW, and one of the first things to catch my eye being a Retribution class Battleship painted in a beautiful scheme. To this day I can still remember it. It got me further in, as Mordheim got my older brother further in.

Sadly however, GW never realised what size of a goldmine it was sitting on. Unable to realise this the quit producing this line and to this day that is one of the major causes of me not throwing money at them. It is also the reason why I now have to look on Ebay for Escher mini's to add female figures into my units.

The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.

How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.

When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.

Now, they are losing customers left and right to these types of systems and they don;t even know why. Worse,even if they did try to relaunch and reclaim this market they would have to fight really, really hard to regain the market share they had ceded willingly.

The whole Specialist Games debackle showed how short sighted and inept GW managment really were. No vision.

 Easy E wrote:
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.

 Vermis wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.

I agree with Vermis 100%!, best thing to happen in decades for wargaming!.

 Easy E wrote:
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.

How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.

When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.

Sorry, but this this is revisionist history and just not true.

There were lots of competitors for all of those types of games back in the 90's. They were smaller compared to the competing games of today, but so was GW and so was the entire gaming industry.
Small Skirmish size games: Firefight, Ronin, kill zone, Heartbreaker/Target had several small miniatures boardgames that were pushing into this space. Alternative armies had (and still has) several warband size fantasy games such as Flintloque, Erin and others. Shockforce, Battletroops and Stargrunt are small platoon skirmish games was closer to Gorka than 40k size-wise.
Space Games: Starfleet Battles, Full Thrust, Battlespace, Silent Death, etc.

There were also many 6mm (and some 10mm) games comparable to Epic and Warmaster.

This is just the 90's off the top of my head and there were many others. All this to say, there's always been a wealth of competitors to GW in all segments of the (admittedly small) wargaming market. It's just that today a bigger market (and the internet) has created active communities around more games. Resulting in more and more-successful games of all sizes.

I think that what made Necromunda and then Mordheim stand out were the rules for ongoing campaigns - where the gang or warband gained experience, suffered injuries, and gained loot over the course of months of play.

The main reasons that I enjoy games like Deadzone, Chaos in Carpathia, or Legends of the High Seas is that they have rules for an ongoing campaign.

A positive example of 'forging a narrative'.

The Auld Grump

There has always been alternatives to GW. Even back in the 90’s games like Warzone, Chronopia, Full Thrust, Dirtside and Kryomek had a solid following. Not to the extent that many modern companies have but they were still there.

I've no doubt the GW's failure to support SG's was a factor in so many alternative gaming companies growing massively over the last 10 years or so and like others I don't think that’s a bad thing. A bit of competition is always good and it's been very healthy for the gaming scene in general.

It’s a shame that SG's died, but the fact that we now have the likes of X-Wing, Infinity, Deadzone, Saga and DZC more than make up for it.

Why in general specialist games were dropped?
Diminishing returns on just keeping the overhead needed to support.

Why they should bring them back with some careful thought:
- All these lines fully tie-in to the stories of both lines.
- We could easily tie-in models to the primary lines so they would always be useful.
- It all seemed to flesh-out the "universe" from everything to their "police", gangs, merchants, sports, galactic warfare: there was something for every scale of their universe.
- It made it possible to play a galactic war all the way down to a warband getting hold of some item that can turn the tide = epic fully realized gaming.

The black library books thread stories that can explore all these elements, they are capable to make people want to see these other elements come into the light again.

This is why so much negativity is lumped on corporate GW at the moment: there is so much possibility to expand in a way that makes business sense and licensing arrangements but they are content to dole out dividends and make no plans for the future of expansion.

Could you imagine FFG to release Blood-Bowl, Necromunda or Epic? Think hard on this and see how it could be a license to make money.

 Talizvar wrote:
Why in general specialist games were dropped?
Diminishing returns on just keeping the overhead needed to support.

Why they should bring them back with some careful thought:
- All these lines fully tie-in to the stories of both lines.
- We could easily tie-in models to the primary lines so they would always be useful.
- It all seemed to flesh-out the "universe" from everything to their "police", gangs, merchants, sports, galactic warfare: there was something for every scale of their universe.
- It made it possible to play a galactic war all the way down to a warband getting hold of some item that can turn the tide = epic fully realized gaming.

The black library books thread stories that can explore all these elements, they are capable to make people want to see these other elements come into the light again.

This is why so much negativity is lumped on corporate GW at the moment: there is so much possibility to expand in a way that makes business sense and licensing arrangements but they are content to dole out dividends and make no plans for the future of expansion.

Could you imagine FFG to release Blood-Bowl, Necromunda or Epic? Think hard on this and see how it could be a license to make money.

I would be all over a FFG Mordheim.

The Auld Grump

 Talizvar wrote:


Could you imagine FFG to release Blood-Bowl, Necromunda or Epic? Think hard on this and see how it could be a license to make money.

If they think specialist games cut into their Fantasy/40K market, they're hardly going to license them to others. I think they're dead and they'll sit on them. Releases like Space Hulk are quick cash in the bank and then disappeared as soon as possible. A far cry from the support the game used to get.

 Eilif wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.

How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.

When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.

Sorry, but this this is revisionist history and just not true.

There were lots of competitors for all of those types of games back in the 90's. They were smaller compared to the competing games of today, but so was GW and so was the entire gaming industry.
Small Skirmish size games: Firefight, Ronin, kill zone, Heartbreaker/Target had several small miniatures boardgames that were pushing into this space. Alternative armies had (and still has) several warband size fantasy games such as Flintloque, Erin and others. Shockforce, Battletroops and Stargrunt are small platoon skirmish games was closer to Gorka than 40k size-wise.
Space Games: Starfleet Battles, Full Thrust, Battlespace, Silent Death, etc.

There were also many 6mm (and some 10mm) games comparable to Epic and Warmaster.

This is just the 90's off the top of my head and there were many others. All this to say, there's always been a wealth of competitors to GW in all segments of the (admittedly small) wargaming market. It's just that today a bigger market (and the internet) has created active communities around more games. Resulting in more and more-successful games of all sizes.

Yes, and except for a few possible exceptions* ( Full Thrust, Battletech) none of them had any meaningful market share. During the same time, Vor: The Maelstrom, Warzone, and Void all competed against WH40K. However, they also had next to 0 market share. It does not even compare to what we are seeing with the corrosion of market share now.

*= Note, I'm not including Historicals here. I'm talking about Sci-Fi/Fantasy games.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

underfire wargaming wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.

I agree with Vermis 100%!, best thing to happen in decades for wargaming!.

I agree with you guys. I was just talking about from a GW Business perspective. It was a really bad thing to let happen.

Edit: I also think even if they did bring them all back, it would be too late for them to put the genie back int eh bottle. GW missed their chance to solidify their domination of this wargaming market.

 Easy E wrote:

Spoiler:

 Eilif wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.

Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.

How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.

When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.

Sorry, but this this is revisionist history and just not true.

There were lots of competitors for all of those types of games back in the 90's. They were smaller compared to the competing games of today, but so was GW and so was the entire gaming industry.
Small Skirmish size games: Firefight, Ronin, kill zone, Heartbreaker/Target had several small miniatures boardgames that were pushing into this space. Alternative armies had (and still has) several warband size fantasy games such as Flintloque, Erin and others. Shockforce, Battletroops and Stargrunt are small platoon skirmish games was closer to Gorka than 40k size-wise.
Space Games: Starfleet Battles, Full Thrust, Battlespace, Silent Death, etc.

There were also many 6mm (and some 10mm) games comparable to Epic and Warmaster.

This is just the 90's off the top of my head and there were many others. All this to say, there's always been a wealth of competitors to GW in all segments of the (admittedly small) wargaming market. It's just that today a bigger market (and the internet) has created active communities around more games. Resulting in more and more-successful games of all sizes.

Yes, and except for a few possible exceptions* ( Hordes of the Things, Full Thrust, Battletech) none of them had any meaningful market share. During the same time, Vor: The Maelstrom, Warzone, and Void all competed against WH40K. However, they also had next to 0 market share. It does not even compare to what we are seeing with the corrosion of market share now.

*= Note, I'm not including Historicals here. I'm talking about Sci-Fi/Fantasy games.

With the efficiency of how they arrange pieces on sprues...they could easily resurrect these lines with ease. The problem is that they'd rather focus on large armies. However, the current 40k business model is all about micro transactions. All the specialist games are ripe for that type of business model. They are idiots.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
If they think specialist games cut into their Fantasy/40K market, they're hardly going to license them to others.

I'd say it couldn't hurt them to get another revenue stream going now that 40K/FB sales are falling anyway, but I think that attitude that killed SG is still the way things are run at Lenton. More so, in fact. Anything else would require too much sense.

Looking at how they handled LotR SBG (which began as a small skirmish game) would a skirmish game like Necro/Gorka/Mord be something we'd actually want to partake of?

Would you pay "the Hobbit" prices for Necromunda figures?

Admittedly, there's the whole licensing thing, but LotR was comparatively affordable when it first came out. Then there was the halving of box sizes and massive blister price raises…