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So, one of my biggest gripes with the ork codex is mob rule. It's, quite simply, terrible. I know that this post won't change anything, but I've got some thoughts on what would make it work, to see what others thought.

First and foremost - have it affect fear tests. This almost seems like an oversight. I mean, orks are a melee-centered army with largely LD7 with no protection or mitigation for fear in any way, shape, or form, other than one unique relic and one unique model, or learning to roll below 7 on 2D6. Even Ghazghkull, the tuffest ork in the galaxy, can still piss his mega-pants at the sight of some nurglings. And fear is actually an extremely common USR, it just doesn't do anything 90% of the time against non-ork melee units. If absolutely nothing else is changed, this needs to happen. I've actually had a warboss and his nob squad be afraid of a khorne dog pack, and it's embarrassing.

Second - instead of counting models, count wounds. As it stands now, mob rule too unreliable for nobz, meganobz, deffkoptas, and flash gitz. 50% of the mob rule table (even worse with the supplement rules) simply doesn't work if you're under 10 models, which said squads cannot ever be. But if you counted wounds, a full nob squad would have a "count" of 20, meaning it would actually stand half a chance of passing morale tests via mob rule.

Third - Not only count wounds in a unit, but also wounds involved in the same close combat.

For example, currently, if you have, say, 3 squads of 10-boy squads (from trukks) engage some berserkers. Lets say that each squad loses 3 boyz and doesn't inflict any wounds in return. On the whole, that means 30 boyz losing 9 in a combat, which is honestly acceptable losses - for a 30-boy strong squad. But since we're talking about 3 squads of 10, each one lost combat by 9, and are under 10 models. That means snake eyes for leadership, and when they fail, they need a 1 to not be wiped out.

This sort of "mobbing up" makes sense from a fluff perspective (bunch of boyz piling in on something in a big mob), and would also make trukk boyz something approaching usability. This sort of thing is mitigated, somewhat, by nobz with bosspoles, but still I think it would be fair, reasonable, effective and fluffy. The groups would separate as per normal after combat, but in combat they help each other out.

What would you change?

I'd be thrilled if they took changes 2 & 3 and applied them to the old mob rule, but that's too much to hope for.

First of all, i do like new mob rule more than the old one cause it's now actually useful for smaller units.

I don't like Ghazzy detachment +2 for mob rule and think it should be changed. The only thing it's doing is removing this 1/36 chance for a huge mob to fail ld at range simultaneously stronly penalising small squads. Furthermore, 3+d3 hits.

And i agree with you about interaction of mob rule and fear. It's probably an oversight.

Counting wounds makes sence but it's too unwieldy to actually apply.

Use the old one from the 4th edition book. There was nothing wrong with it.

 koooaei wrote:
First of all, i do like new mob rule more than the old one cause it's now actually useful for smaller units.

I'd disagree.

If we define a "smaller unit" as less than 10, than new mob rule still has a 50% chance to outright fail. If you don't have a character, and are in combat, it's a 83% to fail. no character, not in combat, it does literally nothing.

So, say we have a situation with 10 nobz in an exploding trukk that causes a 2 unsaved wounds, so down to 9 nobz. Lets say the boss nob got killed, unluckily. That's a pinning test. ~50% to fail, and MR does NOTHING, and your brusier squad is left cowering in a crater while the enemy gets a full turn to shoot them into the dirt, probably causing a morale test which they again have ~50% chance to fail. That's abysmal for a ~350 point unit. Old MR they'd still have LD9, rerollable, which is, of course, better.

So, old MR, even for smaller squads, still gave you decent LD, which prevented most problems in the first place.

For tiny squads, like min squads of meganobz, yeah, new MR is better, as long as the character is alive. But for me, at least, I don't field sub-10 squads often, perhaps out of habit.

I would change the Strength of the hits from S4 (orks with furious charge) to S3. I just think it's ridiculous.

A simple change would be a combination of 4th and 7th Ed. Where units above 10 are fearless then use current mob rule as it is for units less than 11. Maybe add for big units (30 boys, greentide etc) if you roll double 1s you suffer whatever penalty.

@Koooaie: I'm surprised at you. Well not really. You're a very positive guy. I hope we get to meet someday

Is a 50% chance for a handful of Orks to fail after having already failed the LD test the enemy forced on you really too high?

LD should still matter...

Kap'n Krump wrote:
If we define a "smaller unit" as less than 10, than new mob rule still has a 50% chance to outright fail. If you don't have a character, and are in combat, it's a 83% to fail. no character, not in combat, it does literally nothing.

So, say we have a situation with 10 nobz in an exploding trukk that causes a 2 unsaved wounds, so down to 9 nobz. Lets say the boss nob got killed, unluckily. That's a pinning test. ~50% to fail, and MR does NOTHING, and your brusier squad is left cowering in a crater while the enemy gets a full turn to shoot them into the dirt, probably causing a morale test which they again have ~50% chance to fail. That's abysmal for a ~350 point unit. Old MR they'd still have LD9, rerollable, which is, of course, better.

Well, it SHOULD have some drawbacks, doesn't it? The drawbacks are we're depending on characters a lot and we have a chance to fail. Luckilly, it's not that easy to snipe out a character, besides, you can add in 15 pt meks to key squads. And the chances of actually failing both ld and mob rule twice are not that great.
But the huge thing is that we're super hard to break in mellee. Remember 5-th ed? This fearless killed lots of boyz due to no retreat. While if you got dropped to 10 and below in combat, you were quite likely checking at low ld due to kill rate difference. There were drawbacks too. New mob rule is not strictly better or worse - it's just different.

I've had one game where my huge blob failed ld9 and than rolled 1-s two time in a row and had to fall back. But that's a rare occasion. Quite often i have a bunch of orkses tying up something like a super MC/IK or a deathstar for longer than they could with the old mob rule. And small squads of truck boyz getting saved by it.

My only gripe about the new mob rule is random wound allocation. It's very time consuming to allocate 2 wounds to 20-30 guyz randomly.

doktor_g wrote:
@Koooaie: I'm surprised at you. Well not really. You're a very positive guy. I hope we get to meet someday

Aha, thanks. I'd not mind. I just play orks quite often and don't see mob rule as a cause of our main problems

Mob rule is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mob rule is fine, but they need to tweak the way combat resolution in the BRB is handled. You're absolutely right on your problem involving 3 sets of 10 boyz. But Mob Rule itself is fine.

Mob Rule is not fine.

Mobs of 30 aside, the Ork codex is full of specialist units that cost in the ballpark of 15-25 pts per model with a 6+ save and Ld capped at 7. Mob Rule does nothing for them. Please find me another 150+ pt unit in the game that has to test on Ld 7 or flee with no recourse to any special rule after being hit with a few bolters.

In my current homebrew, Mob Rule is a Ld re-roll using the unit size in place of Ld (capped at 10, Ld modifiers applied after head count), with each bosspole counting as an exra model to make Nobz and Flash Gitz useable.

Are you planning to either return WAAAGH! to fleet and drop 'ere we go?

Yes, because when my 2 Shining Spears + kitted out Exarch + Autarch kill over half a squad, only losing the Exarch, the few remaining Orkz should be able to hold their own and tarpit them? With the new Mob Rules, they were able to hold, but it wasn't guaranteed. Which seemed right.

Orkz are the one codex I wish would see more random-crazy rules like Mob Rule in. That said, truly random allocation sucks. We usually do a simplified roll (about 12 boys, a nob and a painboy? Roll a d6, on a 1 somebody important gets hit, otherwise take whoever...)

I once sniped a nob down to 1 wound, then saw Asurmen lose to said nob in a duel. Bad luck happens.

Bharring wrote:
We usually do a simplified roll (about 12 boys, a nob and a painboy? Roll a d6, on a 1 somebody important gets hit, otherwise take whoever...

Hmmm, never considered doing it that way. We usually try to make the odds relatively close to the number of models (d6 and d3 for 20, 2d6 for 30) and say that double 1s kills someone important.

Same idea. Point was about 2 important in about 12 is about 1/6 (always err in these things in favor of the opponent).

I like Mob Rule more than I thought I would after playing Orks since the new codex came out. Overall, it's been pretty good. However there are some glaring things wrong with it that a true Ork fan would fix.

1) First off all the table should be changed to a result of a "6" is an automatic successful save of the Morale, causing D3 wounds instead of D6, regardless of the number of Orks in the squad or the presence of characters. Only a mob that has been reduced to a single, lone Ork should fail on a 6.

2) Second the hits should be S3 instead of S4. Why do Orks get their furious charge bonus when squabbling amongst themselves?

3) With such a huge dependence on characters, Orks should be able to add additional characters to mobs besides Mek Boyz. We should be able to take a squad of Nobz and divide them into other infantry squads. The idea of Mek Boyz was a great idea, but having an army full of Mek Boys isn't very fluffy depending on what army you're bringing.

4) I agree Mob Rule should be allowed to save vs. Fear checks in addition to Morale and Pinning.

5) Get rid of the Ghazzghul rule which adds 2 to the result. Whoever wrote that rule obviously was not thinking very hard. This rule would make sense IF a result of a 6 was an auto-success. But since a result of 6 is actually WORSE than a result of a 2-3, the Ghazzgul modifier is actually WORSE.

Murrdox wrote:

2) Second the hits should be S3 instead of S4. Why do Orks get their furious charge bonus when squabbling amongst themselves?

This is the Nob busting some heads to keep the boyz in line. So S4.

 Makinit wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

2) Second the hits should be S3 instead of S4. Why do Orks get their furious charge bonus when squabbling amongst themselves?

This is the Nob busting some heads to keep the boyz in line. So S4.

Following this logics, s4 only applies to 2-3 result when there's a nob in there and no warboss who's s5. 4-6 says it's the mob landing hits on each other. Anywayz, i'm happy we don't at least use equipped weapons. Imagine meganobz "passing" mob rule.

 koooaei wrote:

 Makinit wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

2) Second the hits should be S3 instead of S4. Why do Orks get their furious charge bonus when squabbling amongst themselves?

This is the Nob busting some heads to keep the boyz in line. So S4.

Following this logics, s4 only applies to 2-3 result when there's a nob in there and no warboss who's s5. 4-6 says it's the mob landing hits on each other. Anywayz, i'm happy we don't at least use equipped weapons. Imagine meganobz "passing" mob rule.

That'd be amusing from the enemy's perspective.

Commissar - Snipers! Take out those Mega Armoured greenskins coming up our flank!
Snipers - Yes sir! *DAKKA DAKKA*
Snipers - Uh.. ew.
Commissar - What's that, Sniper Team? I didn't make that out.
Snipers - Well sir, we fired at the Orks... and now well they're just sort of... slaughtering each-other.

I think people are forgetting something. Back in the old mob rule, it did NOTHING for our smaller, elite squads, or our Trukk Boyz. Now, it at least DOES something for them. They have a CHANCE to not just FAIL and run away. While the chance for them to stay may not be great, it's SOMETHING. AND they can still get a bosspole for another chance.

They even allowed MANz to take a Boss with them. So now, ALL of our units get a CHANCE to stick around instead of just running away like a bunch of meek grots.

It's not perfect, but it's something. Do I miss Fearless? Of course. In 6th, Mob Rule was silly when they took away Fearless wounds. I'm not sure they should get Fearless again, but maybe a psudo-ATSKNF, maybe just be immune to Fear checks, but still be susceptible to failing combat. I dunno.

To be honest, I really haven't had to use the Mob Rule all that much. And to be honest, I rarely get to use it on the Elite stuff outside of MANz anyway, because they tend to get wiped out before you get a chance to roll for it due to Ork general squishiness. And the few times I have had to use it, I've rarely lost more than 1 or 2 Boyz in the process. Yes, it sucks to lose a few dudes in a psudo-Fearless wounds kind of way, but *shrug*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:
I like Mob Rule more than I thought I would after playing Orks since the new codex came out. Overall, it's been pretty good. However there are some glaring things wrong with it that a true Ork fan would fix.

1) First off all the table should be changed to a result of a "6" is an automatic successful save of the Morale, causing D3 wounds instead of D6, regardless of the number of Orks in the squad or the presence of characters. Only a mob that has been reduced to a single, lone Ork should fail on a 6.

2) Second the hits should be S3 instead of S4. Why do Orks get their furious charge bonus when squabbling amongst themselves?

3) With such a huge dependence on characters, Orks should be able to add additional characters to mobs besides Mek Boyz. We should be able to take a squad of Nobz and divide them into other infantry squads. The idea of Mek Boyz was a great idea, but having an army full of Mek Boys isn't very fluffy depending on what army you're bringing.

4) I agree Mob Rule should be allowed to save vs. Fear checks in addition to Morale and Pinning.

5) Get rid of the Ghazzghul rule which adds 2 to the result. Whoever wrote that rule obviously was not thinking very hard. This rule would make sense IF a result of a 6 was an auto-success. But since a result of 6 is actually WORSE than a result of a 2-3, the Ghazzgul modifier is actually WORSE.

1) and 2) Because Ork Boyz really only listen to bigger Orks. That's the whole deal. Bigger Orks set the rules and keep the others in line. If you have a Nob or Warboss beating you up, you better damn listen or join the rest of the dead.

3.) Because they are getting fired up, and the most common character you'll have in the group is a Nob, who is S4, and will punch them in the mouth.

4) Agreed

5) Yes, and no. I mean, yes, the result is worse, but it's almost always ensuring you get a pass, but at a bit of a drawback as well.

Let's face it, GW doesn't wanna make Orks powerful. Our race is the proverbial punching bag.

But youse da biggis'! Yer not jus sum punchin bag grot. Now get te da krumpin! Der's sum mon'keigh fer fightin. Waag!

(*hides behind the green tide*)

Nothing wrong with the mob rule.
It's a benefit, and it's Orky.

It now benefits smaller Ork units (something newer Ork builds use a lot, Trukks, Bikes Tankbustas etc), which the previous version didn't.

A couple of Dead Orks to pass an already failed Moral test is good news. Well worth it. Larger mobs barely notice the difference.

 grendel083 wrote:
Nothing wrong with the mob rule.
It's a benefit, and it's Orky.

It now benefits smaller Ork units (something newer Ork builds use a lot, Trukks, Bikes Tankbustas etc), which the previous version didn't.

A couple of Dead Orks to pass an already failed Moral test is good news. Well worth it. Larger mobs barely notice the difference.

-To be honest I can see where some people like the Mob rule. The way they play makes it useful or they just happen to get lucky/unlucky. It really does completely depend on each situation.

For me depending on the unit ( I will either FAIL 100% of the time, or need to roll a 1) Against shooting mob rule works better. In close combat the store i go to almost always challenges out the nob so I either have to refuse or the nob will die. (my opponents know not to let him swing).
After all attacks are done in close combat I'm almost always under 10. If i refused the challenge a 1-3 will keep me alive and if I took a supplement attachment where I have to accept or I chose to then the Nob is dead and I have to roll a 1.

The way I see it is that you know the rule is somewhat broken when they added the mek 15 point character, so that you don't have to refuse a challenge and can pay for a substitute death in order to not flee. That's what this unit is. Every forum posting says to do this and nobody talks about taking them to help heal vehicle lists.

Against shooting the mob rule works better. You don't lose LD for losing combat. You almost never get a 30 man boy squad shot down to less than 10. And the nob also doesn't get focused out unless there happen to be precision shots.

Most people only focus on the mob rule for 1 type of phase. You have to count both ways when deciding if this rule needs tweaking. For shooting it seems perfectly capable of benefiting smaller squads and helping larger ones that don't get shot to pieces. They have a double chance to pass. In close combat they have a (16.67% to 50% chance to pass. More often then not it's 16.67%.... if you're orky and don't refuse challenges)

What, aside from HQs, is always punking you Nobs? Even the much-feared Scorpion Claw exarch fails to more often than not. And if its a beatstick HQ on the winning side, does that truly seem wrong? And if you're losing combat, then failing the Morale check, why should you be able to hold more than 1/6th the time after breaking after losing?

I would do it this way:

1: fail
2-4: squabble (if 10 in unit), D6 S3 hits
5-6: bustin heads (if character in unit), D3 S4 hits
7+: pass

in Combat, add 1. If part of Ghazzy detachment, add 2.

mhalko1 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Nothing wrong with the mob rule.
It's a benefit, and it's Orky.

It now benefits smaller Ork units (something newer Ork builds use a lot, Trukks, Bikes Tankbustas etc), which the previous version didn't.

A couple of Dead Orks to pass an already failed Moral test is good news. Well worth it. Larger mobs barely notice the difference.

-To be honest I can see where some people like the Mob rule. The way they play makes it useful or they just happen to get lucky/unlucky. It really does completely depend on each situation.

For me depending on the unit ( I will either FAIL 100% of the time, or need to roll a 1) Against shooting mob rule works better. In close combat the store i go to almost always challenges out the nob so I either have to refuse or the nob will die. (my opponents know not to let him swing).
After all attacks are done in close combat I'm almost always under 10. If i refused the challenge a 1-3 will keep me alive and if I took a supplement attachment where I have to accept or I chose to then the Nob is dead and I have to roll a 1.

The way I see it is that you know the rule is somewhat broken when they added the mek 15 point character, so that you don't have to refuse a challenge and can pay for a substitute death in order to not flee. That's what this unit is. Every forum posting says to do this and nobody talks about taking them to help heal vehicle lists.

Against shooting the mob rule works better. You don't lose LD for losing combat. You almost never get a 30 man boy squad shot down to less than 10. And the nob also doesn't get focused out unless there happen to be precision shots.

Most people only focus on the mob rule for 1 type of phase. You have to count both ways when deciding if this rule needs tweaking. For shooting it seems perfectly capable of benefiting smaller squads and helping larger ones that don't get shot to pieces. They have a double chance to pass. In close combat they have a (16.67% to 50% chance to pass. More often then not it's 16.67%.... if you're orky and don't refuse challenges)

To be fair, people use the 15pt Mek to each challenges because healing vehicles is far too unreliable. Not to mention the only vehicle they would be worth using to fix would be a Battle Wagon. And in my case, I often use my Battle Wagons as Dakka platforms. Filling em with Shoota Boyz and strapping Big Shootas or Rokkits to the Wagon. Finding a good vantage point and letting bullets fly for days. In the Choppy Wagons, I will bring a Mek for challenge eating and to possibly fix the Wagon should it need it as they bulldoze up the field to find a suitable target.

Simply put, using a lot of Meks to repair vehicles isn't really good for us. If we had better BS, and better weapons for our Wagons, we could then talk about using a small unit within and filling it with Meks to keep the thing alive. But, as it is, you get a 50/50 chance to repair. And you'll typically only bring one Mek (Unless your filling a Stompa/Morkanaught)

So, that leaves the Meks for their other, perhaps unintended, role. To each challenges. This is what we NEEDED with how badly the challenge system SCREWED us before. We NEED that Nob. We need him for his PK, we need him for his bosspole, and we need him for Mob Rule. Our enemies could just flip us off by issuing the challenge, and we either HAVE to accept or lose our PK attacks. So now, they get one free pass. Toss the Mek into the fray and then the Nob can do as he pleases for a round, and by then you should have what you're attacking cleaned up.

Is it a little unorky to have the leaders sit out the fight? Yes. But GW made it unOrky. Our Nobs and Warbosses have so little access to suitable protection. Nobz get only 4+, but ONLY if you give it to EVERYONE in his squad, which is too costly. Warbosses can get MA, one of the few units to get access to 2+, but he slows your unit down if your not careful. We simply can't RISK our leaders in an awesome slap battle with other leaders. So, the Mek is our whipping boy.

Only thing I dislike about mob rule, is that I have to roll on a table that I have to reference because I can't remember what 2-6 do.
I would like it better if on a 1 you stay, and a 2-6 you stay if you have a Character OR you are above 10 models.

1 you run
2-6 you stay and take that many hits

Done.