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The formation was created with the Spyder acting as the hub of the formation. This is the fluffy rule as the Spyder is usually the hub and chief coordinator for Canoptek system after the Sentinel Computer.
There is conflicting information in the codex, more that a single entry and should be commented on by Games Workshop.
Right, that's what I mean. In this and the Judicator formation, you have a group of units that orbit, as it were, around a lynchpin unit. (And so is distinct from, say, the Doombringer Flight formation or whatever it's called). If you can take multiple Spyders (or Stalkers) you no longer have a lynchpin.
It is a bit akin to character upgrades within units. You cannot have 2 tactical marines sargents in one unit because that would remove his "lynchpin" nature.
So I conclude that multiple Spyders would contradict the apparent general nature of the formation (and general GW unit design) and so their use is not intended.
The formation was created with the Spyder acting as the hub of the formation. This is the fluffy rule as the Spyder is usually the hub and chief coordinator for Canoptek system after the Sentinel Computer.
There is conflicting information in the codex, more that a single entry and should be commented on by Games Workshop.
Right, that's what I mean. In this and the Judicator formation, you have a group of units that orbit, as it were, around a lynchpin unit. (And so is distinct from, say, the Doombringer Flight formation or whatever it's called). If you can take multiple Spyders (or Stalkers) you no longer have a lynchpin.
It is a bit akin to character upgrades within units. You cannot have 2 tactical marines sargents in one unit because that would remove his "lynchpin" nature.
So I conclude that multiple Spyders would contradict the apparent general nature of the formation (and general GW unit design) and so their use is not intended.
Your conclusion is not the only way to see it, as all the other units in the formation can move 12" while the Spyder can only move 6". This is what really holds the formation back, quite literally, since the Wraiths and Scarabs will quickly outpace the Spyder and be outside its bubble.
Regardless, this argument could go on forever as we try and rationalize it. The only way we can get an answer is if Games Workshop answers it in an FAQ.
There are too many times what we are told and what we are shown don't line up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 01:40:27
changemod wrote: Preferred Enemy seems a little wasted on someone with Shred to me...
Still helps with the "to hit" rolls. How is that wasted?
You get half the benefit you'd get putting him elsewhere. Less, if you consider the wasted movement potential.
I know I'd feel like I was paying for a lot of stuff I wasn't using if I fielded that.
There's no other unit in the codex that he doesn't slow down other than Infantry, I mean you stick him in Wraiths, he slows them down, You stick him with Praetorians he slows them down. He's not needed in a Destroyer Unit as he adds nothing.
I mean the only really two choices that I see for the Destroyer Lord are
Deathmarks , let's him put pretty much 18 wounds on a unit if their at full strength
Lychguard , except he can't get in a Nightscythe with them despite being Very Bulky
75 Attacks on the charge that reroll to hits of 1s , then reroll wounds.
So 50% , 32.5 hits , of those 32.5 1/3 will be 1s 10.8333 , I think should be the correct math, 50% which would be 4+ if rerolled.
37.5 hits if my math is correct. I'm not to great at probability but that seems right to me.
37.5 hits
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
changemod wrote: Preferred Enemy seems a little wasted on someone with Shred to me...
Still helps with the "to hit" rolls. How is that wasted?
You get half the benefit you'd get putting him elsewhere. Less, if you consider the wasted movement potential.
I know I'd feel like I was paying for a lot of stuff I wasn't using if I fielded that.
There's no other unit in the codex that he doesn't slow down other than Infantry, I mean you stick him in Wraiths, he slows them down, You stick him with Praetorians he slows them down. He's not needed in a Destroyer Unit as he adds nothing.
I mean the only really two choices that I see for the Destroyer Lord are
Deathmarks , let's him put pretty much 18 wounds on a unit if their at full strength
Lychguard , except he can't get in a Nightscythe with them despite being Very Bulky
75 Attacks on the charge that reroll to hits of 1s , then reroll wounds.
So 50% , 32.5 hits , of those 32.5 1/3 will be 1s 10.8333 , I think should be the correct math, 50% which would be 4+ if rerolled.
37.5 hits if my math is correct. I'm not to great at probability but that seems right to me.
His big advantage for going with Wraiths was to tank hits at the front of the squad. He can no longer do that. Now you have to leap frog him to combat. Wraiths also have a cheaper better option with the Canoptek Harvest formation and it's cheaper by nearly 100 points.
Hollismason wrote: His big advantage for going with Wraiths was to tank hits at the front of the squad. He can no longer do that. Now you have to leap frog him to combat.
He still does that for shooting since he should end the turn 2" out front. For combat the wraiths are attacking at I5 before him so he will use his pile-in for his attacks. He can also challenge to reposition. Once he gets in the frontline you can allocate wounds.
You can have the D Lord join the wraith unit in the Canoptek Harvest.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 01:54:40
He moves 6", the problem is we don't' know if hes going to move another 2" or up to 12". That unreliability is going to cause him to be stuck in the back at some point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 01:56:16
Just did the math, and it takes a hell of a lot to take out our Overlord if he is apart of the decurion and the reclamation legion with a phase shifter.
To kill him you need to wound him 15 times. So shove him in a Barge and you can ignore most small arms fire and its almost impossible to kill him.
It might actually be a better strategy to shove him in the barge and avoid CC. Since when your opponent shoots at you, you can direct the shots away or towards his barge rather than CC where they can just hit the barge.
Assuming BS4 and AP3 that's 27 str7 or higher shots they have to direct at your Warlord to kill him. Meanwhile he can provide his Reclaimation Legion aura and whatever other aura he might have from his trait. So is 160pts too much to deny warlord to your enemy?
Could be viable, just have him floating around shooting anything that comes near with 5 str5 ap3 shots. Give him a flamer or that special flamer to deal with hordes or elite troops respectively.
What do you guys think? Just a thought I had while trying to think how to gear my units. Also whats the consensus on the best way to gear the Destroyer Lord? Should I still deck him out and run him with wraiths or what.
Psienesis wrote: While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: Where can i find the Mephrit dynasty "codex" rules and such? I have a pdf from crondex but no entry there. So i was thinking WD?
Your conclusion is not the only way to see it, as all the other units in the formation can move 12" while the Spyder can only move 6". This is what really holds the formation back, quite literally, since the Wraiths and Scarabs will quickly outpace the Spyder and be outside its bubble.
Regardless, this argument could go on forever as we try and rationalize it. The only way we can get an answer is if Games Workshop answers it in an FAQ.
There are too many times what we are told and what we are shown don't line up.
I think the catch-up issue is why one of his enhancement options is Fleet.
That said, sure, this can be interpreted differently -- my position is based on what I would do if I were a game designer.
Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Please show me where this is RAW. Why can't a formation call for something on a model by model basis? Formations often call for exactly one model in single model units. Is it really so far-fetched to think that they can do this for units that are not always a single model?
Look, again, I'm not claiming that this is RAI. I don't know if it is, nor is it a particularly big deal to me. But I don't understand the chasm that people feel like they have to leap across to understand that this at least APPEARS to be asking (and mandating) that you take one and only one Spyder for this formation.
From a game balance perspective (haha) this also makes sense. Say you take 3 Spyders. Do wraiths get the benefits until Spyder A dies? Spyder B? The whole squad? The rules governing the duration of the effects do not seem to make an allowance in their conjugations for multiple Spyders either. At the very least, they give no indication as to what would happen in these cases (which would presumably happen just about every game if you had multiple Spyders in the unit)
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread about tactics. Wraiths are awesome! and FWIW, I have two Triarch stalkers on the way that I plan to model for disadvantage to use as Spyders in the Canoptek harvest (in two separate formations, I promise! )
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
He's a perfectly fine Wraith wrangler.
He may be the best wraith wrangler there is. Wouldn't surprise me to see wraithwing still using him, even at the tournament level
Spoiler:
Formations
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List
Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules
that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains
its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound
armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part
of the Formation.
[/spoiler]
You want another example where a formation pulls models from unit entry? Dark artisan from DE Covens.
Dark atrisan:
1 haemonculus
1 cronos
1 talos
That doesn't mean I get to take 1 heami, 1-3 taloi and 1-3 cronos which is what your advocating here. It says 1 spyder, that means 1 spyder. Your more then welcome to reinterpret RAI in your group but that doesn't make it RAW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: I'm not saying you can't leap frog him into combat, but that the whole point was to keep him in front to tank those wounds.
The big weakness they had the Instant Death rule is hugely mitigated by the change to T5.
I just don't see him as a huge boost to the squad as he was.
I agree, his whole purpose is gone. Before he was needed to tank ID and use MSS. MSS blows now and wraiths are T5, there is really no point in inflating their cost, it just makes them less efficient overall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 03:54:12
Trying to find the place for him in the army though is tough, hopefully the Nightscythe will get a FAQ update so it can in fact carry him.
He's perfect with a unit of Lychguard but the problem is no real delivery mechanism.
That's why I think the 3 units that benefit the most are Praetorians , Flayed Ones, and Deathmarks all have deep strike , Praetorians run into the same thing as the Wraiths though in that he slows them down..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 04:14:15
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
bodazoka wrote: Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Can you have a warscythe and solar pulse?
No you can only have the solar pulse or the warscythe which sucks, since it means he is either useless at CC or useless at ranged. Not sure how to equip him.
Psienesis wrote: While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List
Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules
that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains
its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound
armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part
of the Formation.
You want another example where a formation pulls models from unit entry? Dark artisan from DE Covens.
Dark atrisan:
1 haemonculus
1 cronos
1 talos
That doesn't mean I get to take 1 heami, 1-3 taloi and 1-3 cronos which is what your advocating here. It says 1 spyder, that means 1 spyder. Your more then welcome to reinterpret RAI in your group but that doesn't make it RAW.
I have posted RAW. The formation rules refer to units. Referring loosely to a DE example doesn't count as RAW.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 04:25:32
Why don't you make a thread about it then in YMDC instead of inundating the thread with this goofy argument. The title of the thread is Necron Tactics, in the 40k Tactics forum not " Maybe sort of if you look at it this way and ignore the actual entry for the Formation then maaaybe mayyyybe I'm right. Maybe" thread. Seriously it's annoying to see new posts and then go "Oh it's one person being purposefully obtuse about a RAW argument that no one agrees with" and not something useful about tactics regarding Necrons.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 04:48:45
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
No, the codex saying "1 Spyder" is what counts as RAW. The section you've posted doesn't preclude a single model unit from an otherwise multi-model unit - indeed both are units. However, Corsair's example of another formation where models are used instead of the full unit is spot on, as is his statement about your logical precedent. Do you think that the dark Eldar formation allows for a unit of 1-3 Taloi? As well as 1-3 Cronos? Because we have a whole lot of formations to go back and edit if this is the case, and a whole new level of incompetency by GW. Maybe this one is a mistake. Maybe GW miswrote the rules. But you can't play this one differently without doing the same for all the other formations that have the same sort of precedent on a RAW basis.
Anyhow that's all I have to say on that topic. Speaking of the D Lord, I think he is still super usable. The amount of durability you can give him is nuts and you have consistent AP 2 and armourbane. He goes from tanking for wraiths to being the "hidden power fist" if you will. My understanding of the precedent set forth by tau drones is that he can still make his assault move even while in the wraiths' unit, so he should easily maintain coherency. Only real downside is that he does rob them of fleet IIRC. Maybe not the best for the points (especially since the barge lord is so much cheaper than his previous iteration) but preferred enemy is still dope for wraiths
bodazoka wrote: Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Can you have a warscythe and solar pulse?
No you can only have the solar pulse or the warscythe which sucks, since it means he is either useless at CC or useless at ranged. Not sure how to equip him.
I recommend taking a Cryptek if you can and giving him the Solar Staff. That way he can also refuse challenges for the Destroyer Lord.
luke1705 wrote: No, the codex saying "1 Spyder" is what counts as RAW. The section you've posted doesn't preclude a single model unit from an otherwise multi-model unit - indeed both are units. However, Corsair's example of another formation where models are used instead of the full unit is spot on, as is his statement about your logical precedent. Do you think that the dark Eldar formation allows for a unit of 1-3 Taloi? As well as 1-3 Cronos? Because we have a whole lot of formations to go back and edit if this is the case, and a whole new level of incompetency by GW. Maybe this one is a mistake. Maybe GW miswrote the rules. But you can't play this one differently without doing the same for all the other formations that have the same sort of precedent on a RAW basis.
Anyhow that's all I have to say on that topic. Speaking of the D Lord, I think he is still super usable. The amount of durability you can give him is nuts and you have consistent AP 2 and armourbane. He goes from tanking for wraiths to being the "hidden power fist" if you will. My understanding of the precedent set forth by tau drones is that he can still make his assault move even while in the wraiths' unit, so he should easily maintain coherency. Only real downside is that he does rob them of fleet IIRC. Maybe not the best for the points (especially since the barge lord is so much cheaper than his previous iteration) but preferred enemy is still dope for wraiths
What army list entry are you using for that 1 Spyder?
The formation applies its benefits to 1 Spyder but that could be 1 Spyder in a 3 Spyder unit.
The formation specifies no restrictions.
The formation says specifically to use the Canoptek Spyder army entry list on page 93.
[page 93] Also, the Options:
"May include up to two additional Canoptek Spyders 50 pts/model"
There is as clear a chain of permission to add additional Spyders as there is to add a gloom prism to the Spyder.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 05:40:01
I kind of feel 2 full Tomb Blade Squads and 1 Wraith Squad and 1 Canoptek Harvest Formation hits the sweet spot of shooting and CC troops. Also not really that expensive. 440 for the Tomb Blades and you can keep the Formation and Wraith Squad to a total of 600 points.. its incredibly expensive money wise.
HQ Cryptek 65
Troops
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Immortals w/ NightScythe
Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades
10 Tomb Blades
5 Wraiths
H. Support
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Formation
Canoptek Wraiths x 5
Scarabs
Spyder
1825
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 06:20:35
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
Hollismason wrote: Why don't you make a thread about it then in YMDC instead of inundating the thread with this goofy argument. The title of the thread is Necron Tactics, in the 40k Tactics forum not " Maybe sort of if you look at it this way and ignore the actual entry for the Formation then maaaybe mayyyybe I'm right. Maybe" thread. Seriously it's annoying to see new posts and then go "Oh it's one person being purposefully obtuse about a RAW argument that no one agrees with" and not something useful about tactics regarding Necrons.
Exalted lol, I am starting to see a trend with Col_impact where he takes the most advantages interpretation no matter how weak every time then blurts RAW even when it clearly isn't. I think as far as tactics we need to look at it as being one spyder.
Either way I think that formation is more expensive then it's really worth. It is durable sure but the points you spend on "taxes" getting the perks you could simply purchase more wraiths from a detachment from mephrit.
I think the destroyer lord is a solid choice if you don't want to run a first or second CCB. He really is solid with just a warscythe when put into any infantry unit. I like him in a 20 strong block of flayed ones personally.
Eh.. it's not really a Tax though is it? I mean it comes with a great Tar Pit of a unit the Scarabs, who come 3W to a base and you can add 6 more wounds to by the time they charge. So now it's 15 W squad that's got a 6+ , 5++ and can hurt anything in the game.
Sure if you put your Canoptek Spyder out in the middle of the open field with no cover you can take them out possibly on turn 1 but onces your first turn goes they get the RP, then you'll probably get it the 2nd turn as well.
Then the Wraiths are in CC hopefully.
The extra save makes them super more viable.
I'm going to try the 20 man block of Flayed ones with a D Lord. That sounds like a good, get the hell away from this quarter of the board unit.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
Hollismason wrote: I kind of feel 2 full Tomb Blade Squads and 1 Wraith Squad and 1 Canoptek Harvest Formation hits the sweet spot of shooting and CC troops. Also not really that expensive. 440 for the Tomb Blades and you can keep the Formation and Wraith Squad to a total of 600 points.. its incredibly expensive money wise.
HQ Cryptek 65
Troops
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Immortals w/ NightScythe
Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades
10 Tomb Blades
5 Wraiths
H. Support
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Formation
Canoptek Wraiths x 5
Scarabs
Spyder
1825
Solid list, I like it but I don't think you have to go that route. I think you can make a stronger list and save some cash. Your taking a cad, so why not take advantage of the necrons insanely durable troops having obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Eh.. it's not really a Tax though is it? I mean it comes with a great Tar Pit of a unit the Scarabs, who come 3W to a base and you can add 6 more wounds to by the time they charge. So now it's 15 W squad that's got a 6+ , 5++ and can hurt anything in the game.
Sure if you put your Canoptek Spyder out in the middle of the open field with no cover you can take them out possibly on turn 1 but onces your first turn goes they get the RP, then you'll probably get it the 2nd turn as well.
Then the Wraiths are in CC hopefully.
The extra save makes them super more viable.
I'm going to try the 20 man block of Flayed ones with a D Lord. That sounds like a good, get the hell away from this quarter of the board unit.
I just don't think scarabs are a good tarpit though. There is WAY too much s6 out there, personally I don't think wraiths need more durability. Don't forget most things you actually want to tarpit with scarabs will just ID them in HtH as well, making it more like 5-6 t3 wounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 06:34:32
bodazoka wrote: Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Can you have a warscythe and solar pulse?
No you can only have the solar pulse or the warscythe which sucks, since it means he is either useless at CC or useless at ranged. Not sure how to equip him.
I recommend taking a Cryptek if you can and giving him the Solar Staff. That way he can also refuse challenges for the Destroyer Lord.
I'm going to run my d lord with a unit of deathmarks give him a scythe and the artifact gauntlet they drop in and use dmark guns then next turn when the d marks cant shoot the dlord flames another unit and gives some prtection against armour for the marks.
plus it fits the background as both dlord(and "friends") plus marks are outcasts but still useful to dynasties.
Destroyer Lord with Tomb Blades? Unit of 10. That's a lot of gauss rerolling 1s to hit.
If you are taking the destroyer cult in a Decurion and want to get advantage out of Preferred Enemy... Within 12" they get 23 str 5 shots hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s. Mostly ignoring cover. I think tomb blades are my auto include this codex.
and 
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+