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Probably because you can just hang out on Objectives and completely ignore them in Cover with your army getting a 4+ 4+. They're shooting isn't great when dealing with a majority of T5 and multiple save units.4 Tyrants puts out 48, 12 ST6 shots, that reroll hits, everything in the army being 4+ , 4++ is going to be like , oh okay.

It's just math.

The Hive Tyrants need to close in to get the glancing hits with their Haywire templates.

Otherwise you can just shoot the rest of their army to pieces and just sit on objectives all day. At a Majority T4 the Flyrants are still only doing 40 wounds a turn just statistically.

What could they possibly do against 2 Warrior Squads sitting on a Objective in Ghost Arks, they got to get to rear armour of the vehicle or get Hay Wire on them.

Gauss Blasters rolling snapshots aren't gonna do much against a Hive Tyrant.

Oh yeah, Necrons are absurdly durable.

Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.

Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.

5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.

I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.

I'm sure someone her can do the math.

Requizen wrote:

caelim wrote:
Another potential combo - Doomsday Arks and Deathmarks

At least for me, as soon as I think about a Doomsday Ark, I think of Melta Drop Pods forcing the choice between jinking and exploding.

Deathmarks seem to be an answer to this. They automatically come in right after someone deepstriking, get to Intercept, and 6 of them should kill 3 marines on average.

Potential Deathmark combo: Obyron in the Deathmarks, place Zahndrekh in the middle of your important units. Your Barges, your Doomsday Ark, Stalker, Heavy Destroyers, whatever you brought. Make sure he's there.

Then, when your opponent Deep Strikes onto a nice potential target, there's a nice 24" diameter bubble that you get a perfect Deep Strike Interception.

If they don't Deep Strike near that bubble, keep the Deathmarks in reserve. Then next turn, move Zahndrekh towards the enemy that just landed and have the Deathmarks come down perfectly there.

If you have the points, you can even include a Destroyer Lord for that nice PE(E!).

This wouldn't work because I don't think Obyron has Deepstrike himself and the Ghostwalk Mantle doesn't confer it.

Plus Rear Armor doesn't mean anything to a Necrons army, barring any IA stuff I don't know about.

The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.

Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.

5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.

I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.

I'm sure someone her can do the math.

45.5625


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.

yes

 Tyran wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.

Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.

5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.

I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.

I'm sure someone her can do the math.

45.5625


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.

yes

Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.

I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.

Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.

His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.

Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.

So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.

Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.

The only problem I see is dedicating assault stuff with invisibility and rerolleable 2++ stars.

So a Decurion cant take a Aegis right? Have to go the CAD route.

Hollismason wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.

Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.

5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.

I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.

I'm sure someone her can do the math.

45.5625


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.

yes

Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.

I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.

Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.

His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.

Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.

So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.

Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.

The bargeLord can take the flamer AND a warscythe and he has the mobility to put the flamer to great use.

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

So which Ally of Convenience do you think is best to shore this up. Chaos has a bit of AA. I don't know anything about Tau really? Do they have good AA that you can get on the board for cheapish in an Allied Detachment?

Hollismason wrote:
As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)

At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.

At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.

They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.

Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.

Your under estimating the Hive Tyrants a bit. 20 shots at AP4 equals 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3+ armor save. So the Hive Tyrant loses 2 wounds. And that becomes very situational, FNP, Cover. etc..

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.

Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.

5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.

I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.

I'm sure someone her can do the math.

45.5625


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.

yes

Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.

I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.

Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.

His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.

Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.

So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.

Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.

The bargeLord can take the flamer AND a warscythe and he has the mobility to put the flamer to great use.

You mean the one shot AP2 ST7 Flamer, or the St4 AP5 flamer, cause neither are something I'd pay 150+ points for.

Seriously, he's not that great in CC any more , people gonna have to get use to it. A 10 Man Tactical Squad with a SGT w/ Melta Bombs can blow him up in CC.

Any dedicated assault unit will just kill the Barge First, ignoring the Necron Overlord.

He's a really great Support unit but he's not half as powerful as he was now.

 jasper76 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

So which Ally of Convenience do you think is best to shore this up. Chaos has a bit of AA. I don't know anything about Tau really? Do they have good AA that you can get on the board for cheapish in an Allied Detachment?

I'm thinking of trying an Obelisk. The gravity pulse will give AV flyers a scare without having to dedicate a shooting phase to them.

Fragile wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)

At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.

At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.

They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.

Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.

Your under estimating the Hive Tyrants a bit. 20 shots at AP4 equals 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3+ armor save. So the Hive Tyrant loses 2 wounds. And that becomes very situational, FNP, Cover. etc..

The common Flyrant load out is Egrubs Twin Linked Devourers, Wings. 3+ , T6 . 4 wounds.

The problem is if the Flyrant Lands near you you can eat their lunch with the amount of mass fire you can put into them.

Basically Flyrants are powerful units but they're not like something you should run screaming from the table over. Not with the Durability the Necron Army has.

Can a bargelord fire two weapons? Specifically, the Overlord himself I mean. Obviously he can fire one weapon whilst the underslung Gauss Cannon fires.

What's the best load out for Tomb Blades? I'll most likely just be running 1 unit of them to fill the requirement for the decurion.

Depends how many you are running. Honestly, I tried htem with just Gauss but the Particle Beamer ST6 blast looks very appealing.

Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope is the way to go though.. Remember though they can't jink and fire the Beamer.

The dedicated assault people could always just ignore the lord and kill the barge, that hasn't remotely changed. Mine repeatedly got owned by TH/SS and would again in this new codex. Or piling on a bunch of wounds to the lord would also work.

He was scary because of sweep and armourbane, much less so now and less durable but cheaper. I'll be running him simply with the scythe and that is it. He can storm a landraider well enough still and I don't care if what is inside munches him.

Hollismason wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.

Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.

5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.

I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.

I'm sure someone her can do the math.

45.5625


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.

I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.

Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.

yes

Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.

I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.

Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.

His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.

Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.

So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.

Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.

The bargeLord can take the flamer AND a warscythe and he has the mobility to put the flamer to great use.

You mean the one shot AP2 ST7 Flamer, or the St4 AP5 flamer, cause neither are something I'd pay 150+ points for.

Seriously, he's not that great in CC any more , people gonna have to get use to it. A 10 Man Tactical Squad with a SGT w/ Melta Bombs can blow him up in CC.

Any dedicated assault unit will just kill the Barge First, ignoring the Necron Overlord.

He's a really great Support unit but he's not half as powerful as he was now.

He just serves a different purpose now. His speed is insane! He will be a regular player in the NewCrons, just not the OP player he was.

Hollismason wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)

At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.

At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.

They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.

Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.

Your under estimating the Hive Tyrants a bit. 20 shots at AP4 equals 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3+ armor save. So the Hive Tyrant loses 2 wounds. And that becomes very situational, FNP, Cover. etc..

The common Flyrant load out is Egrubs Twin Linked Devourers, Wings. 3+ , T6 . 4 wounds.

The problem is if the Flyrant Lands near you you can eat their lunch with the amount of mass fire you can put into them.

Basically Flyrants are powerful units but they're not like something you should run screaming from the table over. Not with the Durability the Necron Army has.

I agree with what you just said. But you've blown the Tomb Blades way out of proportion. 10 TBs do not scare a Hive Tyrant. The rest of your army might.

10 won't but 20 will which is where I think people will start realizing a stronger army is something that takes Ignore Cover, because 20 Tomb Blades will kill a Wave Serpent a turn two is they get with in 12 inches and can easily kite and strip a Imperial Knight, along with shooting at FMCs that are relying on Shrouding or Cover saves.

What my "competitive" build of a army is going to kind of resemble ( still not sold on the Triarch Stalker)

65 point Cryptek

Elites
Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray

Troops
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe

Fast Attack
6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9 Tomb Blades
9 Tomb Blades

H. Support
1 H. Destroyer

1 H. Destroyer

1 H. Destroyer

Formation
Canoptek Harvest
5 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun

or
HQ
65 point Cryptek

Troops
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe

Fast Attack
6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9 Tomb Blades
9 Tomb Blades

H. Support
2 H. Destroyers

2 H. Destroyers

2 H. Destroyers

Formation
Canoptek Harvest
5 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun

I'd go with your second list. The stalker will only really help the Destroyers and having double the destroyers is better than improving them to BS 5.

Yeah it's what I was thinking.

Similar to that but with different Troops, here's another idea for 1850 competitive:

CAD
HQ
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Troops
19x Warriors w/ Ark
19x Warriors w/ Ark
Fast Attack
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
Heavy Support
2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers

It doesn't have AA specifically but I don't think we really need it. We just need to survive flyers.

Hollismason wrote:
Depends how many you are running. Honestly, I tried htem with just Gauss but the Particle Beamer ST6 blast looks very appealing.

Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope is the way to go though.. Remember though they can't jink and fire the Beamer.

Nice! I don't have my codex with me right now, but what do the shield vanes and nebuloscopes do?

Noctem wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Depends how many you are running. Honestly, I tried htem with just Gauss but the Particle Beamer ST6 blast looks very appealing.

Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope is the way to go though.. Remember though they can't jink and fire the Beamer.

Nice! I don't have my codex with me right now, but what do the shield vanes and nebuloscopes do?

Shield Vanes give 3+ armour saves. Nebuloscopes give Ignore Cover.