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 tetrisphreak wrote:
Looking at it from a RAW perspective, I see Col_impact's point. Clearly.

Manufactorum Genestealer Brood - 5x units of genestealers. Restrictions: Genestealer broods in this formation may not add any additional genestealers. Pretty clear - I can take 5x5 broods, and add any other upgrades (including a broodlord), but no genestealers.

The canoptek harvest is missing this restriction. It would have been simple to add it in - and it was not. I think the INTENDED rule, for balance of the game if nothing else, was that the "1 canoptek spyder" was supposed to be it - no extras. However on the RAW side it most certainly can be upgraded to include 2 more spyders.

HIWPI - I'm not going to run more than 1 spyder per canoptek harvest. It's how i feel the formation is intended to be ran. However, should I face a necron player who puts 2 or 3 spyders in the formation, it's within the cut-and-dry rules for them to do so. It might leave a case of feel-badsies on the table, but dem's da rulez.

Thank you. That was a very helpful assist. My overall argument is that we need to consistently take the rules as they are unless a collective vote is made for a house rule, which of course people always have the power to do.

col_impact wrote:
Please sir form a rules argument which takes away my permission in the army entry list to add additional spyders. I can add additonal spyders because the options in the army entry list give me clear permission to do so.

No. People have given you valid arguments, and you refuse to hear them.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Please sir form a rules argument which takes away my permission in the army entry list to add additional spyders. I can add additonal spyders because the options in the army entry list give me clear permission to do so.

No. People have given you valid arguments, and you refuse to hear them.

You have copy paste functionality. Feel free to post them again. Not a single counter argument has held up to scrutiny.

Go back and reread any of the YMDC threads where you were obtuse and the threads became locked after pages of circular arguments. Leave it out of this thread.

So what's people's opinion on the Heavy slots? If you were running 3 units of Wraiths, and had 140-170 points to spend on a single heavy choice, what would that be? This is in a CAD by the way.

A unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers seems nice just on their own. Anyone tried them yet? Because of preferred enemy they're really reliable in what they do, they got a long range (as far as Necron guns usually go) and they can jump shoot jump. The 25 points per T5 3+ SV 5+ RP wound is great value when you consider the weaponry and mobility.

omerakk wrote:
I don't really think players are handicapping themselves by only taking 1 spyder; I think the formation works fine with as few points in it as possible.

Unless of course, you're wanting to use the formation as a platform for the full blown scarab farm.
Adding 3 bases a turn to a unit that gets RP.... could be extremely annoying for people to deal with.

I'm running 9 Spyders in a CAD + Decurion + Canoptek Swarm, adding 10 Scarab bases a turn, that get 4+ RP.
It's is actually 2 fewer Spyders than I was previously running.

If your focus is on the Wraiths, yeah I can see what your are saying and you only really need/want the single spyder. If your focusing on the Scarabs however, 3 Spyders are better than 1. Even with 4+ RP I was still losing about 3 scarab bases per turn. A swarm of 9, supported by a single Spyder, just isn't going to cut it for me.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Go back and reread any of the YMDC threads where you were obtuse and the threads became locked after pages of circular arguments. Leave it out of this thread.

Actually your comment here is a clear case of an obtuse argument. I asked you to present an argument and you can only insult.

I tried out Heavy Destroyers a bunch in the old codex, and they were disappointing then. They just weren't reliable enough to do damage, even with Preferred Enemy. Now that they're over twice as durable and have access to Stalkers and the Destroyer Cult as a whole, I think they're solidly not bad.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I tried out Heavy Destroyers a bunch in the old codex, and they were disappointing then. They just weren't reliable enough to do damage, even with Preferred Enemy. Now that they're over twice as durable and have access to Stalkers and the Destroyer Cult as a whole, I think they're solidly not bad.

I've only run the Destroyer cult once, but it performed really well. Using a move, shoot, jetpack behind cover approach to stay at maximum range, it just evaporated a Black Templars army.

Heavies are very good, with their range and jsj they can pretty much avoid getting shot at.

Definitely a stand out unit in the codex. Another option to seriously consider is the new doomsday ark, at str10 stationary and a str8 ap3 moving shot, these things are actually good on paper. Now a lot of that depends on the tables you play on but they are an interesting unit for you to consider.

Punisher wrote:
Heavies are very good, with their range and jsj they can pretty much avoid getting shot at.

Definitely a stand out unit in the codex. Another option to seriously consider is the new doomsday ark, at str10 stationary and a str8 ap3 moving shot, these things are actually good on paper. Now a lot of that depends on the tables you play on but they are an interesting unit for you to consider.

I only like the heavies. The regular destroyers are pants. When I self-ally or run a CAD on top of the Decurion I run Heavy Destroyers there but never the Destroyer Cult. If you compare the Destroyer Cult to other point sinks, like a Tau ally or a Nids ally you really get a sense of how it lags.

So we all know that wraithwing, canoptek harvest, decurian detachment, destroyer cult, warrior spam, etc...is good, but I was debating throwing my points into some unconventional models. What makes Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Monoliths, C'tan, and even some people have gone as far as saying the annihilation barge.

What truly makes these units terrible though, I have used a doomsday ark repeatedly one of my favorite time honored tactics is marching a squad of warriors down the middle of the map or an area that lacks cover, bait the enemy into line of sight and drop that delicious pie plate onto his units. The Doomscythe feels very...lack luster now, but I would still love to field them are they even remotely good anymore or does that small blast pretty much ruin them?

My Monolith sadly does not see much use, but the times I do field it have had great results, I make sure to clear out most of the melta or lance before deep striking that puppy right behind enemy lines and force my opponent to deal with it and an advancing army of death.

So while we all know what is blatantly good, can someone speak on more unconventional strategies using units that are often overlooked? I feel like everything has its place in this codex, but I would like to see some of these units really shine!

 Therion wrote:
CAD
-Destroyer Lord, Warscythe

-5 Immortals
-5 Immortals

-5 Wraiths, Whip Coils
-5 Wraiths, Whip Coils
-5 Wraiths, Whip Coils

Leviathan
-Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x TL Devourer, Electroshock Grubs
-Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x TL Devourer, Electroshock Grubs
-Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x TL Devourer, Electroshock Grubs

-Mucolid
-Mucolid
-Mucolid

-Mawloc

1850 points on the spot

Can't think of many things it wouldn't have something to deal with.

col_impact wrote:I traced out a rock solid rules argument. Hack away at it if you can.

I don't know why you repeat that again and again. Your argument is far from rock solid, and it's been hacked to death. We've moved on. The rule is ambiguous. Start a thread in YMDC. The 'Overlord' wasn't an argument of any kind. It was a piece of a whole, showing how GW has worded the formations. They use plurals and singulars, and when they use plural of the model they also add the word unit, and when they use singular of the model they don't mention units.

This seems like a really great TAC list, lots of fast threats in the air and ground a Mawloc to dig out entrenched armour I like it.

And I also agree with col! there are rules to back up what he is saying and there are two instances of fluff which help to give me an impression of there intentions.

So what's the preferred Ctan in a Conclave of the burning one?

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Looking at it from a RAW perspective, I see Col_impact's point. Clearly.

Manufactorum Genestealer Brood - 5x units of genestealers. Restrictions: Genestealer broods in this formation may not add any additional genestealers. Pretty clear - I can take 5x5 broods, and add any other upgrades (including a broodlord), but no genestealers.

The canoptek harvest is missing this restriction. It would have been simple to add it in - and it was not. I think the INTENDED rule, for balance of the game if nothing else, was that the "1 canoptek spyder" was supposed to be it - no extras. However on the RAW side it most certainly can be upgraded to include 2 more spyders.

HIWPI - I'm not going to run more than 1 spyder per canoptek harvest. It's how i feel the formation is intended to be ran. However, should I face a necron player who puts 2 or 3 spyders in the formation, it's within the cut-and-dry rules for them to do so. It might leave a case of feel-badsies on the table, but dem's da rulez.

I am going to run it with one Spyder as well because of others possibly ambiguities (and I don't really rate the formation anyway) but I do think Col is correct on this one. Purely because he draws (at least) level in the RAW argument and has two separate sources to justify a RAI argument namely the fluff in the book and the picture in the white dwarf.

Games Workshop has a little box under the formation they use to write the unit restrictions in and have done so very clearly for every other formation. IMO the fact it's not a restriction in that little box is also telling, sure you can smack them for rules not being clear but for missing rules entirely? when does that happen?

Nightbringer is the best probably for Conclave , honestly you can't do much better that units got massive amount of fire power especially with the upgrade to Solar Staff, then you still got hit Nightbringer Ability, and the C'Tan powers.

 Sabor wrote:
So we all know that wraithwing, canoptek harvest, decurian detachment, destroyer cult, warrior spam, etc...is good, but I was debating throwing my points into some unconventional models. What makes Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Monoliths, C'tan, and even some people have gone as far as saying the annihilation barge.

What truly makes these units terrible though, I have used a doomsday ark repeatedly one of my favorite time honored tactics is marching a squad of warriors down the middle of the map or an area that lacks cover, bait the enemy into line of sight and drop that delicious pie plate onto his units. The Doomscythe feels very...lack luster now, but I would still love to field them are they even remotely good anymore or does that small blast pretty much ruin them?

My Monolith sadly does not see much use, but the times I do field it have had great results, I make sure to clear out most of the melta or lance before deep striking that puppy right behind enemy lines and force my opponent to deal with it and an advancing army of death.

So while we all know what is blatantly good, can someone speak on more unconventional strategies using units that are often overlooked? I feel like everything has its place in this codex, but I would like to see some of these units really shine!

I think the Mono is the best of all the units you listed there, IF the opponent doesn't have any melta it's super annoying for them having this huge LOS blocking terrain piece moving around the board. People seem to want to kill it even though it doesn't do THAT much damage. Imagine having two of these moving up the board with a Destroyer cult JSJ behind them? talk about board control! and then when you are in position pulling some Lychguard out or a big unit of warriors.

Or.. is it better to reserve almost all of your army and Alpha strike the monolith's in? I feel this is not a great strategy unless you add a comms relay because missing out on grabbing / manoeuvring for objectives on even just one turn puts you behind.

bodazoka wrote:

 Sabor wrote:
So we all know that wraithwing, canoptek harvest, decurian detachment, destroyer cult, warrior spam, etc...is good, but I was debating throwing my points into some unconventional models. What makes Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Monoliths, C'tan, and even some people have gone as far as saying the annihilation barge.

What truly makes these units terrible though, I have used a doomsday ark repeatedly one of my favorite time honored tactics is marching a squad of warriors down the middle of the map or an area that lacks cover, bait the enemy into line of sight and drop that delicious pie plate onto his units. The Doomscythe feels very...lack luster now, but I would still love to field them are they even remotely good anymore or does that small blast pretty much ruin them?

My Monolith sadly does not see much use, but the times I do field it have had great results, I make sure to clear out most of the melta or lance before deep striking that puppy right behind enemy lines and force my opponent to deal with it and an advancing army of death.

So while we all know what is blatantly good, can someone speak on more unconventional strategies using units that are often overlooked? I feel like everything has its place in this codex, but I would like to see some of these units really shine!

I think the Mono is the best of all the units you listed there, IF the opponent doesn't have any melta it's super annoying for them having this huge LOS blocking terrain piece moving around the board. People seem to want to kill it even though it doesn't do THAT much damage. Imagine having two of these moving up the board with a Destroyer cult JSJ behind them? talk about board control! and then when you are in position pulling some Lychguard out or a big unit of warriors.

Or.. is it better to reserve almost all of your army and Alpha strike the monolith's in? I feel this is not a great strategy unless you add a comms relay because missing out on grabbing / manoeuvring for objectives on even just one turn puts you behind.

That's a really good point with the JSJ and Mono idea.

Me I am curious about the Doomsday Ark. Anyone try that?

It's actually pretty cool and beefy it's cheap actually and other than having to not move it would be alright, plus it's got some additional beefiness due to the Gauss Flayers.

Hollismason wrote:
It's actually pretty cool and beefy it's cheap actually and other than having to not move it would be alright, plus it's got some additional beefiness due to the Gauss Flayers.

See i loved it back in 5th now that it's buffed to strength 10 AP1 and when moving Strength 8 AP3 i don't see why you wouldn't bring it. Insta gibbing space marine squads from 24 inches away is nice. Then again I fight mainly space marine armies and scarcely fight anything below an armor save of 4+.

Don't see how the monolith isn't just a giant turd. It's so hard to deepstrike in reasonably terrain coverage since it has no ds protection. It dies very quickly to grav and melta shreds it like all vehicles.

200pts for a battle cannon just isn't worth it. Most of the time when I run it it dies turn 1 maybe 2 if it starts on, leaving the giant thing to attempt to deepstrike somewhere praying it doesn't scatter.

Maybe it's just my meta but grav cents are a thing here, and when they deploy 12inch forward there isn't much space for it to be useful without dying when they move forward and shoot it.

Punisher wrote:
Don't see how the monolith isn't just a giant turd. It's so hard to deepstrike in reasonably terrain coverage since it has no ds protection. It dies very quickly to grav and melta shreds it like all vehicles.

200pts for a battle cannon just isn't worth it. Most of the time when I run it it dies turn 1 maybe 2 if it starts on, leaving the giant thing to attempt to deepstrike somewhere praying it doesn't scatter.

Maybe it's just my meta but grav cents are a thing here, and when they deploy 12inch forward there isn't much space for it to be useful without dying when they move forward and shoot it.

I am going to try the Living Tomb with double monoliths when i get the 2 monoliths. I think it can work well in that formation. It sure fences you in but it should be fun for an occasional whirl.

May as well just play the game 400 points less than your opponent, that's my opinion of not only the Monolith but the Obelisk as well. Just complete garbage units.

What are people's thoughts on a take all comers list? I want to just make a very balanced normal cad w/ maybe the Conclave of the burning one and that's it.

Decurion Flayed Ones spam with fire support is going to become a thing, I guarantee it. Spamming small 5-10 man squads of Flayed Ones, Infiltrating/Deep Striking/Outflanking them all over the board, and then backing it up with vehicles or Heavy Destroyers is going to be a thing.

Anything moving up the field has to contend with the FOs or concede map control to them. And they're dirt cheap, extremely durable for their points (75% chance to ignore anything that doesn't pierce their armor, for starters), and if the enemy wants to walk through midfield they have to avoid being charged. If they're focusing down the small, cheap squads of Flayed Ones up the board, things like Heavy Destroyers or even just spammed Warriors/Immortals can just sit back and shoot uninterrupted.

Non-Decurion FOs are not as good - losing the durability, can only bring 3 squads at max... they are a much lesser speedbump, but then you're not restricted elsewhere. I wish the Reclamation Legion wasn't so awkward.

Requizen wrote:
Decurion Flayed Ones spam with fire support is going to become a thing, I guarantee it. Spamming small 5-10 man squads of Flayed Ones, Infiltrating/Deep Striking/Outflanking them all over the board, and then backing it up with vehicles or Heavy Destroyers is going to be a thing.

Anything moving up the field has to contend with the FOs or concede map control to them. And they're dirt cheap, extremely durable for their points (75% chance to ignore anything that doesn't pierce their armor, for starters), and if the enemy wants to walk through midfield they have to avoid being charged. If they're focusing down the small, cheap squads of Flayed Ones up the board, things like Heavy Destroyers or even just spammed Warriors/Immortals can just sit back and shoot uninterrupted.

Non-Decurion FOs are not as good - losing the durability, can only bring 3 squads at max... they are a much lesser speedbump, but then you're not restricted elsewhere. I wish the Reclamation Legion wasn't so awkward.

Agreed, pretty much the universal conclusion. Flayed One goodness has been discussed since the book dropped.

Well I think the decurion offers the best ability to do MSU which is really big right now mixed with large units of warriors and Tomb Blades it can work really well.

What do you think something like that would look like? I mean something like I think would be a good base, you absolutely need the Doom Scythe ignoring the ability to take a Nightscythe.


Decurion

Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phase shifter (155)
10 Warriors (130)
10 Warriors w/ Ghost Ark (235)
5 Immortals (85)
9 Tomb Blades (198)
9 Tomb Blades (198)

Deathbringer Formation
Doom Scythe (160)
Doom Scythe (160)

Hollismason wrote:
May as well just play the game 400 points less than your opponent, that's my opinion of not only the Monolith but the Obelisk as well. Just complete garbage units.

What are people's thoughts on a take all comers list? I want to just make a very balanced normal cad w/ maybe the Conclave of the burning one and that's it.

Actually you can have some nifty shenanigans with the gate of infinity to move around the board between two different gates on two different monoliths. Gives good mobility to a blob of flayed ones or something else that needs it.

My thoughts on an all Necron TAC list actually involves the gauss pylons. Grab a unit of three for AA. Tomb blades for fast objective grabbers. Wraiths for counter assault, tarpit and a deathstar if you want to kit it out that way (not the most balanced but good IMO). A Ghost Ark for obsec and gauss spam, a night scythe for AA and late game objective grabs.

Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:

Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb

10 warriors w/ghost ark
5 immortals w/night scythe

6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 tomb blades w/Nebuloscopes, shield vanes

3 Gauss Pylons

Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(

Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?

 luke1705 wrote:


Actually you can have some nifty shenanigans with the gate of infinity to move around the board between two different gates on two different monoliths. Gives good mobility to a blob of flayed ones or something else that needs it.

My thoughts on an all Necron TAC list actually involves the gauss pylons. Grab a unit of three for AA. Tomb blades for fast objective grabbers. Wraiths for counter assault, tarpit and a deathstar if you want to kit it out that way (not the most balanced but good IMO). A Ghost Ark for obsec and gauss spam, a night scythe for AA and late game objective grabs.

Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:

Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb

10 warriors w/ghost ark
5 immortals w/night scythe

6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 tomb blades w/Nebuloscopes, shield vanes

3 Gauss Pylons

Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(

Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?

Not to contradict, but do you mean Sentry Pylon with Gauss exterminators by any chance? Gauss pylons are apocalypse units that cost 420 points a pop. (Damn you 7th edition for making these things practically useless)

Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.

This first list is similar to one I posted earlier (actually it might be the same). CAD with Destroyer Cult. Highly mobile. I switched out the Nightscythes for Stalkers to see how they do with all the heavy destroyers.

CAD:
Destroyer Lord w/ PS, WS, Nightmare Shroud - 190
Triarch Stalker - 125
Triarch Stalker - 125
5x Immortals - 85
5x Immortals - 85
6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132
6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132
3x Heavy Destroyers - 150
3x Heavy Destroyers - 150
Destroyer Cult:
Destroyer Lord w/ PS, WS - 155
3x Heavy Destroyers - 150
3x3 Destroyers - 360

This next list is similar idea but in a Decurion for extra resiliency. It has a lot more synergy and I think is a better list than above. The Praetorians will hopefully make up for the loss of 6 heavy destroyers with their AP 2 shooting and the rerolls from the formation. Their primary targets will be 2+ armour save units. It might lack anti-armour to kill IKs though.

Decurion:
Reclamation Legion:
CCB - 135 (will mainly just provide the reroll buff and shoot stuff with guass cannon. Will equip with Hyperphase sword so he's not completely useless in combat.)
5x Immortals - 85
10x Warriors - 130
10x Warriors - 130
6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132
6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132
Destroyer Cult:
Destroyer Lord w/ PS, WS, Nightmare Shroud - 190
3x Heavy Destroyers - 150
3x3 Destroyers - 360
Judicator Batallion:
5x Triarch Praetorians w/ Rods - 140
5x Triarch Praetorians w/ Rods - 140
1x Triarch Stalker - 125

This last list is probably the most competitive but also the most hated.

Decurion:
Reclamation Legion:
CCB w/ WS, PS, Phylactery, Gauss Cannon - 195
5x Immortals - 85
10x Warriors - 130
10x Warriors - 130
6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132
6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132
Aux:
5x Flayed Ones - 65
Hive Fleet Detachment:
Flyrant 2x dev and egrubs - 240
Flyrant 2x dev and egrubs - 240
Flyrant 2x dev - 230
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
Malonthrope - 85
Mawloc - 140

Then there's all the fun builds of spamming Flayed Ones and Scarab Farm. There's a ton of stuff you can do with this codex.

 luke1705 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
May as well just play the game 400 points less than your opponent, that's my opinion of not only the Monolith but the Obelisk as well. Just complete garbage units.

What are people's thoughts on a take all comers list? I want to just make a very balanced normal cad w/ maybe the Conclave of the burning one and that's it.

Actually you can have some nifty shenanigans with the gate of infinity to move around the board between two different gates on two different monoliths. Gives good mobility to a blob of flayed ones or something else that needs it.

My thoughts on an all Necron TAC list actually involves the gauss pylons. Grab a unit of three for AA. Tomb blades for fast objective grabbers. Wraiths for counter assault, tarpit and a deathstar if you want to kit it out that way (not the most balanced but good IMO). A Ghost Ark for obsec and gauss spam, a night scythe for AA and late game objective grabs.

Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:

Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb

10 warriors w/ghost ark
5 immortals w/night scythe

6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 tomb blades w/Nebuloscopes, shield vanes

3 Gauss Pylons

Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(

Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?

Put the 7° Tomb Blade without the Shield Vanes.