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Alright what do you guys think of this 1500pt list. What do I need to shore up before I commit to purchasing the models I need to complete it.

Its a Decurion Detachment.

Command Barge - scythe, shifter, IWND
10xWarriors
10xWarriors
5xImmortals
3xTomb Blades - Beamers

Destroyer Lord - scythe, shifter, shroud
3xDestroyers- 1 heavy
3xDestroyers- 1 heavy
3xDestroyers- 1 heavy

4xWraith- T.Beamers
3xScarabs
1xSpyder- beamer

Comes in at just shy of 1500pts. Also don't know whats better the 3+ save for tomb blades or the beamer on the spyder. The save is useful but without the beamer it just feels like the spyder doesn't do much.

 luke1705 wrote:
Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:

Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb

10 warriors w/ghost ark
5 immortals w/night scythe

6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 wraiths w/whip coils
6 tomb blades w/Nebuloscopes, shield vanes

3 Gauss Pylons

Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(

Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?

Like it, have 3 x painted Pylons that I am yet to actually field but am busting to try. If you want to squeeze some points out take a whip coil of each lead wraith in your unit because that guy is likely never to cross the field alive anyway! gives you enough for another blade maybe.

Someone was mentioning Flayed Ones earlier, I've been trying to work out a list with Imo in a Decurion because MTC, 4+ RP, with +1 to reserves and reroll to ds FOs sounds like a pretty solid little unit.

The challenge is, as far as I can tell by the rules, you have to bring the RC in for Imo. That means you are looking at a minimum of 790 points minimum before upgrades. My thinking is grab an NS for the RC + Olord prereq, throw some Warscythes and a few other upgrades on them, and slap them with either the Decurion Immortals or Warriors.

From there you can spam in super FOs to your hearts contents. Also, with Imo dropping out of the NS, you stand a pretty good chance of capturing a few of those squads in the reroll to 1 RP bonus bubble.

Not sure what else the list needs to cap it off? I've played around with a Triarch formation with VB/PC TPs or a Conclave, both of to cover the FOs weaknesses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:
So what's people's opinion on the Heavy slots? If you were running 3 units of Wraiths, and had 140-170 points to spend on a single heavy choice, what would that be? This is in a CAD by the way.

A unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers seems nice just on their own. Anyone tried them yet? Because of preferred enemy they're really reliable in what they do, they got a long range (as far as Necron guns usually go) and they can jump shoot jump. The 25 points per T5 3+ SV 5+ RP wound is great value when you consider the weaponry and mobility.

Man I really, really like Heavy D's in this edition, Therion. They are pretty brutal on their own, and can pair nicely with Stalkers for a brutal alpha strike.

I've got a list that maxes them out at 18 that I'm playing around with as a concept. Also, although I'm a bit meh on normal Destroyers outside of the formation, inside the formation they are pretty stout. Bump up to about half an HP per base in shooting vehicles, not too mention ratcheting up their MC and infantry shooting a notch.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Someone was mentioning Flayed Ones earlier, I've been trying to work out a list with Imo in a Decurion because MTC, 4+ RP, with +1 to reserves and reroll to ds FOs sounds like a pretty solid little unit.

The challenge is, as far as I can tell by the rules, you have to bring the RC in for Imo. That means you are looking at a minimum of 790 points minimum before upgrades. My thinking is grab an NS for the RC + Olord prereq, throw some Warscythes and a few other upgrades on them, and slap them with either the Decurion Immortals or Warriors.

First thing I would ask is how many units of Flayed Ones are you bringing, and is it more cost effective to add Crpyteks to there units instead for the +1RP? and a comms relay for the reserves?

Killiest, highest AV wall list I could think of(assuming can't use a T Vault):

Necboom (1850pts)
Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment)
HQ

Catacomb Command Barge
Tesla Cannon
Overlord
Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe

Troops
Immortals
5x Immortal
5x Gauss Blaster
Immortals
5x Immortal
5x Gauss Blaster

Heavy Support
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark

Lords of War
Obelisk

Necrons: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment)
Formation
Deathbringer Flight
Doom Scythe, Doom Scythe, Doom Scythe, Doom Scythe

I'm rolling around with the idea as many as 8, so probably not. Plus, getting crypteks into FO squads is a bit problematic as they can't DS, Infiltrate, or Outlflank.

I am beginning to think that the Decurion is almost designed to require an Ally, and in that way get people to buy more models and expand collections.

The Decurion is strong but it has weaknesses that are best shored up by allying to Tau or Nids and I am sure IK, CD, and even Orks provide some good ally options, and that people will eventually move into allying to keep competitive.

That's been a trend for a while in 40K and the new Necron 7th edition codex is no exception. Its been a strong trend since formations were a thing. Necrons is no longer a standalone codex, at least not if you want to run an optimal list. Not only can Orks bring in Canoptek Harvest formations easily but eventually we will be optimizing our own lists with stuff not Necron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Don't see how the monolith isn't just a giant turd. It's so hard to deepstrike in reasonably terrain coverage since it has no ds protection. It dies very quickly to grav and melta shreds it like all vehicles.

200pts for a battle cannon just isn't worth it. Most of the time when I run it it dies turn 1 maybe 2 if it starts on, leaving the giant thing to attempt to deepstrike somewhere praying it doesn't scatter.

Maybe it's just my meta but grav cents are a thing here, and when they deploy 12inch forward there isn't much space for it to be useful without dying when they move forward and shoot it.

I am going to try the Living Tomb with double monoliths when i get the 2 monoliths. I think it can work well in that formation. It sure fences you in but it should be fun for an occasional whirl.

Another thing I think is doable with the Living Tomb formation is against a lot of armies just parking the Monoliths and the Obelisk on objectives and racking up 50% maelstrom points with little effort and zero effort objective points at game end.

The pure Necron lists, even with the 2 sources rule, aren't bad still. For example, a standard CAD Wraithwing + Destroyer Cult is a strong army. I've also seen CADs with 2 units of Wraiths + Canoptek Harvest. The latter can also have a strong Spyder presence.

In short, I wouldn't go as far as saying Necrons arent a standalone army. I think that's hyperbole. They're easily capable of winning a tournament with Necron CAD+Necron formation or Decurion+Necron CAD combos. They already have won quite a few tournaments all over the world with armies like this.

The allies probably make it even better, or atleast different, but that's the same for everyone.

Zimko wrote:
Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.

I noticed you have zero Wraiths in all of your lists. You don't like the units or you truly think you can be more competitive with just Tomb Blades and Destroyers? I think skipping on the real assault threat available to you is a mistake.

It occurs to me looking through the codex that the reason that Tomb Blades are priced so cheaply compared to Immortals, when they seem much better on paper, is that

1) Immortals can use Night Scythes and Eternity Gates

2) The Tomb Blade model is about 2 times as large as the Immortal one, making it significantly easier to hit with blast weapons and much harder to get into cover.

Alcibiades wrote:
It occurs to me looking through the codex that the reason that Tomb Blades are priced so cheaply compared to Immortals, when they seem much better on paper, is that

1) Immortals can use Night Scythes and Eternity Gates

2) The Tomb Blade model is about 2 times as large as the Immortal one, making it significantly easier to hit with blast weapons and much harder to get into cover.

It's all about Ignore Cover ladies and gentlemen. That USR is the single most important USR in the 40k meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:
The pure Necron lists, even with the 2 sources rule, aren't bad still. For example, a standard CAD Wraithwing + Destroyer Cult is a strong army. I've also seen CADs with 2 units of Wraiths + Canoptek Harvest. The latter can also have a strong Spyder presence.

In short, I wouldn't go as far as saying Necrons arent a standalone army. I think that's hyperbole. They're easily capable of winning a tournament with Necron CAD+Necron formation or Decurion+Necron CAD combos. They already have won quite a few tournaments all over the world with armies like this.

The allies probably make it even better, or atleast different, but that's the same for everyone.

Zimko wrote:
Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.

I noticed you have zero Wraiths in all of your lists. You don't like the units or you truly think you can be more competitive with just Tomb Blades and Destroyers? I think skipping on the real assault threat available to you is a mistake.

I agree with your argument when we are talking about Necron lists that are mostly or predominantly Necron CAD. If a Necron list is predominantly Decurion then I think it winds up being just flatly more points efficient to ally in a non Necron source than to self-ally or try to go with a small Necron CAD since small Necron CADs don't offer as much as nonNecron for cheap as nonNecron sources (compare what you get cheaply with Nids or Tau or Orks or Eldar). You just wind up more for your points if you go with a compact Tau ally or CAD for example than a compact Necron ally or CAD. Just an observation. And I am talking about optimization, not tourney winning capability. Even though a measure of optimization weighs In on the performance of a list at a tourney, players can win with unoptimal lists, sometimes lists that are profoundly less than optimal. They just win on player strength or lucking into good matchups for that lopsided list.

I think one thing you are failing to consider is taking pure Decurion with no additional detachments outside of it.

It's quite doable with the formation options, and there's not too many wholes you can't cover.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I think one thing you are failing to consider is taking pure Decurion with no additional detachments outside of it.

It's quite doable with the formation options, and there's not too many wholes you can't cover.

Well, I think the Decurion has a problem with dealing with AA in particular. It certainly is possible dealing with it in house in the Decurion, more NS, etc. But you are having to deal with the dirt cheap and sometimes better options offered by Tau ally, Nid ally, Ork ally, etc.

I am not saying you might be correct in your conclusion, but have you first gone through the step of weighing the pros and cons of going in and out of the Necron offerings?. I am doing that now, and I am seeing more point efficiency at a small compact toolbox grab with a compact non Necron ally. Again, I am not saying you could not be ultimately correct, I am just wondering if you have actually gone through the process of weighing different options against each other. Your opinion is much more valid if you have indeed gone through that process. If you haven't already, fire up Battlescribe or whatever and compare point totals. The Decurion stuff at handling AA for example is much more expensive than a non-Necron ally grab. Unless you are being a purist who wants all Necron, and that is fine if you are, I think its fair to do a point efficiency analysis over those last bit of points that shore up the weaknesses of your list and whether you simply get more bang for your buck with a Necron offering or a non Necron offering (look closely at Tau or Nids which I think are the strongest alternate offerings). Let me know your findings. I am curious what other player think on this issue which has come to my mind after playing with lists with allies. It seems better to go outside of the Necrons for that last little bit of weakness covering. Alternate opinions? But please go through the exercise I have laid out of actually comparing Necron and nonNecron sources with Battlescribe or some list creation tool.

Honestly the major power of the Decurion is in the reclamation legion itself.

If you're trying to minimise the core, you're honestly probably better off just making an all-formation or small CAD and multi formation list, because if you're treating it as a tax, it will be one.

You have in the legion a large, durable, space filling gunline, and ought to be looking to maximise those strengths then use a few well chosen auxiliaries to help you troubleshoot priority targets and take control of the board to secure against being undermined by maelstrom.

 Therion wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.

I noticed you have zero Wraiths in all of your lists. You don't like the units or you truly think you can be more competitive with just Tomb Blades and Destroyers? I think skipping on the real assault threat available to you is a mistake.

I like Wraiths but they're in an awkward position in this codex. In a CAD they share a slot with Tomb Blades, who are much more point efficient now. Wraiths lack decent ranged weaponry (still talking CAD) and their offensive capability in assault isn't actually that great. They were strong before because a Destroyer Lord could join them and give them a Warscythe and mindshackle for offense. That might still be possible but a bad assault move roll could lead the Destroyer Lord too far behind. Now they're just a tarpit unit.

In a Harvest, they're much more effective. They can get a nice ranged weapon and still charge after shooting it AND they're even more resilient. The problem is you're investing at least 230 pts for 3 Wraiths +30 for the useful weapons. You know what 10 Tomb Blades costs? 220 pts.

So knowing that their primary role is to be a tarpit, then you have to consider why you need a tarpit. To prevent deathstars and other melee units from reaching your stuff. But if all your stuff is mobile (destroyers and tomb blades) then what's the point?

Wraiths are cool, but I don't think they're competitive anymore.

Yup, lol 18 wraiths not competitive, 1 april is quick this year...

the only thing you can say right now is that there are other potential competitive builds.

 Valek wrote:
Yup, lol 18 wraiths not competitive, 1 april is quick this year...

the only thing you can say right now is that there are other potential competitive builds.

Play some games with 18 wraiths and let us know how they do.

I will concede the fact that a few wraiths as a tarpit can be competitive. I was just explaining why I didn't put wraiths in my lists and why I don't think they're that great this codex.

I'm guessing large amounts of strength 6 rending aren't enough for some people because that's not quite Deathstar levels of damage output.

col_impact wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I think one thing you are failing to consider is taking pure Decurion with no additional detachments outside of it.

It's quite doable with the formation options, and there's not too many wholes you can't cover.

Well, I think the Decurion has a problem with dealing with AA in particular.

From what I've been reading, the idea behind a full Decurion is just to be so unkillable on the ground that you can ignore the flyers all game and wipe out any units that try to get to the objectives. Personally I don't like playing armies that can't deal with some unit type in any other way except ignoring it, but I can certainly see that the idea could work. You can make a Necron army that doesn't really have any good targets for Flyrant shooting for example. They just do a bunch of S6 shots that wound easily but get bounced by strong armour saves and 4+ RPs with rerolls. Flyrants are pretty decent vs CAD Wraiths (3 Flyrants can nuke out 3 full units of Wraiths over the course of a game), but Harvest Wraiths are another story. Same with Decurion Tomb Blades, and the infantry.

Taking 18 Wraiths may not be competitive but MSU with the Decurion can be, the problem is that you have to somehow get anti-AA into the army and that can be difficult with the Decurion because you're dedicating 320 points to just Doom Scythes.

Necron Lord w/ Warscythe , Phase Shifter (135)
10 Warriors (130)
10 Warriors (130)
10 Immortals (185)
5 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes (110)
5 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes , Nebuloscopes (110)
5 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes , Nebuloscopes (110)
Canoptek Harvest
4 Wraiths w/ Tran Beamer
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder
310
Canoptek Harvest
4 Wraiths w/ Tran Beamer
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder
310

Doom Flight
2 Doom Scythes (320)

1800

I personally though think you should be maxing you're units out with the Decurion because the Warriors are insanely good and so are Immortals as well as taking multiple MSU.

Lord w/ Phase Shifter, Warscythe (135)
10 Warriors (130)
Night Scythe (130)
10 Warriors (130)
NightScythe (130)
5 Immortals (85)
6 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes (132)
6 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes , Nebuloscopes (132)
5 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes , Nebuloscopes , Particle beamers (120)

Canoptek Harvest
3 Wraiths w/ Trans Beamer
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder
260

Canoptek Harvest
3 Wraiths w/ Trans Beamer
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder
260

1644

7 Flayed Ones (101)

7 Flayed Ones (101)

Hollismason wrote:
Taking 18 Wraiths may not be competitive but MSU with the Decurion can be, the problem is that you have to somehow get anti-AA into the army and that can be difficult with the Decurion because you're dedicating 320 points to just Doom Scythes.

It's not hard. You can ally a Tau or a Tyranid CAD and get your AA from there. Tau are a bit less killy but bring useful obsec units, while Nids are just dirty otherwise.

Apologies if you were thinking about the AA in a single detachment army (pure Decurion). In that case refer to my post above (best tactic might be to avoid air units altogether and just focus on your strengths).

Your second list looks good, although despite the 'hype' behind Flayed Ones, I'd probably go with something else, like a Destroyer Cult. The mandatory Overlord could also be Zahndrekh, since he's just 150 points and clearly has a lot of free stuff on him.

I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.

@Hollismason

Decurion

Reclamation Legion

-Nemesor Zahndrekh
-10 Warriors
-10 Warriors
-5 Immortals
-5 Tomb Blades, Shieldvanes, Nebuloscopes, Particle Beamers
-5 Tomb Blades, Shieldvanes, Nebuloscopes
-5 Tomb Blades, Shieldvanes, Nebuloscopes

Canoptek Harvest

-6 Wraiths
-3 Scarabs
-1 Canoptek Spyder

Destroyer Cult

-Destroyer Lord, Warscythe, Phase Shifter
-3 Destroyers
-3 Destroyers
-3 Destroyers
-3 Heavy Destroyers

Total: 1850p

The Destroyer Lord rides with the Wraiths. Everything else is just shooty, fast and ridiculously hard to kill. It's got 13 independently operating units, and 2 heroes.

I like that second list Hollismason. It would be a good list to be very aggressive with. I might would consider taking out the Nightscythes for something else, maybe more tomb blades.

@ Therion - Very solid list.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.

Ignore Cover with an Aegis defense line and Icarus Lascannon. Park the TBs there to shoot it until you need to grab an objective. Then man it with another backfield unit, like Warriors with an overlord when they move out.

In a Decurion the Destroyers are crazy value. They already re-roll 1's to hit, but now in a Cult they get full re-rolls for wound and armour penetration rolls, and move through cover. It's also noteworty that the Destroyer Lord also gets these benefits.

On top of it they get the 4+ RP. It's hard to argue against them, especially as in my opinion the Wraiths really benefit from the Destroyer Lord doing some heavy lifting in combat.

Destroyers cost 20 points per wound. It's a move through cover T5 LD10 Space Marine with a 4+ 'FNP' that works against everything, re-rolls 1's to hit and all rolls to wound or to penetrate, moves on a jet pack and carries a heavy weapon that can be shot on the move at full BS and can mass murder Marines but also kill Land Raiders. If it's not worth bringing at that cost, then it will never be.

changemod wrote:
I'm guessing large amounts of strength 6 rending aren't enough for some people because that's not quite Deathstar levels of damage output.

That's why you put a warscythe D lord in there with Orikan or a veiltek. Plenty of killy.

Wraiths are a light-medium infantry grinder. Are Khorne dogs a good assault unit? Absolutely. Now imagine if they struck at initiative while charging through terrain, were T5, had rending and were able to have their 3++ without extra reliance on Grimoire, etc. yeah I wouldn't take any of those in a competitive list either.

Wraiths can tarpit, do counter-assault, do regular assault and just grind through bodies without a care in the world. The biggest asset is their cheap cost for the kit they have.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.

Gauss all the way imo. The particle beamer isn't Twin-linked, and against a decent enemy you shouldn't be able to score more than two hits per marker anyhow. The main benefit of the gauss blaster is the ap4, alllowing you to ignore the armour of Fire warriors, AM grenadier veterans, ork 'ard boyz and bikers, heck even loads of necron units. So while the blasts might be slightly more killy against hordes of 5+ or worse armour saves and AV10-11 vehicles, in the end the overall utility of gauss and the fact that it still performs very well versus the mentioned targets makes it the go to for me.

TompiQ wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.

Gauss all the way imo. The particle beamer isn't Twin-linked, and against a decent enemy you shouldn't be able to score more than two hits per marker anyhow. The main benefit of the gauss blaster is the ap4, alllowing you to ignore the armour of Fire warriors, AM grenadier veterans, ork 'ard boyz and bikers, heck even loads of necron units. So while the blasts might be slightly more killy against hordes of 5+ or worse armour saves and AV10-11 vehicles, in the end the overall utility of gauss and the fact that it still performs very well versus the mentioned targets makes it the go to for me.

Think about matchups though. Arming one unit with S6 ignore cover blasts to make it a different kind of threat to different types of units will pay dividends to you when you really need a unit like that (Enemy runs a Scarab farm?), instead of just having 'a little bit more of the same'. You probably already have a ton of AP4 from elsewhere.

There is another advantage of the PB, it works well at 24", while Gauss needs to be 12" for full firepower, where they are vulnerable to assault.

TompiQ wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.

Gauss all the way imo. The particle beamer isn't Twin-linked, and against a decent enemy you shouldn't be able to score more than two hits per marker anyhow. The main benefit of the gauss blaster is the ap4, alllowing you to ignore the armour of Fire warriors, AM grenadier veterans, ork 'ard boyz and bikers, heck even loads of necron units. So while the blasts might be slightly more killy against hordes of 5+ or worse armour saves and AV10-11 vehicles, in the end the overall utility of gauss and the fact that it still performs very well versus the mentioned targets makes it the go to for me.

If you're taking 3 units of Tomb Blades, having one of them with blast weapons is a good idea. Without that, then your opponent has no reason to spread out and can maximize his shooting by clumping up without worrying about losing a bunch of models to templates. If they don't spread out then you can make them pay for it.