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Requizen wrote:
Scythe Lychguard should definitely be in a Night Scythe, max size, with a Chronometron Cryptek, maybe with Solar Staff. Drop them an inch from the enemy, even something that moves 12" away will be within good charge range afterwards.

Of course, then you have to deal with reserves and Interceptor and stuff.

As awesome as scythe guard sounds... 5-10 scythes...umm, yes, thank you, the huge problem it has is mobility and it's ability to reach it's ideal target before getting focused. Deployment via night scythe is the safest way to get it to it's pinpoint location but then you've just wasted 2+ turns getting into position, and that's in the best case scenario; one turn in reserves, one turn to deploy (and be shot at, likely) and only on turn 3, be able to assault. Congrats, you've arrived to a party that's half over.

You're probably better off deep striking them with a cryptek w/ veil and solar staff. Allows a turn 1 deepstrike (with a smaller footprint than doing similar with wraiths, and cheaper), solar staff protecting you from shooting during that pivotal time right before you get into assault to show then your beat sticks, and sets you up for a turn 2 assault. A unit of 10 w/ scythes and a cryptek w/ veil, solar staff run you 355 pts, still less than a knight and i;d wager the scythe guard would win.

xpress907 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Scythe Lychguard should definitely be in a Night Scythe, max size, with a Chronometron Cryptek, maybe with Solar Staff. Drop them an inch from the enemy, even something that moves 12" away will be within good charge range afterwards.

Of course, then you have to deal with reserves and Interceptor and stuff.

As awesome as scythe guard sounds... 5-10 scythes...umm, yes, thank you, the huge problem it has is mobility and it's ability to reach it's ideal target before getting focused. Deployment via night scythe is the safest way to get it to it's pinpoint location but then you've just wasted 2+ turns getting into position, and that's in the best case scenario; one turn in reserves, one turn to deploy (and be shot at, likely) and only on turn 3, be able to assault. Congrats, you've arrived to a party that's half over.

You're probably better off deep striking them with a cryptek w/ veil and solar staff. Allows a turn 1 deepstrike (with a smaller footprint than doing similar with wraiths, and cheaper), solar staff protecting you from shooting during that pivotal time right before you get into assault to show then your beat sticks, and sets you up for a turn 2 assault. A unit of 10 w/ scythes and a cryptek w/ veil, solar staff run you 355 pts, still less than a knight and i;d wager the scythe guard would win.

Using a Veil on anything is incredibly risky, especially when a Scythe is not only safer, but also a pretty good source of damage in and of itself.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Veil. It's incredibly useful tool for us. But 11 models is not a small footprint (not huge, but not small), and you end up clumped up with only a Run move to get you in the right position. Unless you're aiming to drop 1" away from the enemy (extremely poor decision for scattering deep strike), you're never going to get the amount of precision that you get from a Scythe. Especially for a non-shooting, slow unit such as the Lychguard.

You can't have the Veil and the Staff on the same character, so if you're teleporting you're using two of them.

With a Night Scythe, you can move 36+6+D6". Unless you're playing hammer and anvil and the mark is hiding in a far corner, there really is no getting away, especially as you can, in most cases, partially surround the unit.

Mmmm those are some very good points guys thank you. I suppose scythe guard appeal to me because my main opponent plays Orks, so a 3+ armour is as good as a 3+ invul against pretty much all of his shooting. We tend to play big point games. and he normally has a ghaz/MANz unit on the go, so a unit that cuts through their armour has high value to me.

I know its been explored a lot, but the Canoptek Harvest is insanely durable. Held up his Green Tide for 5 turns of combat. It was basically game over for him by the time the wraiths were dead

Hollismason wrote:
Well I mean he does want to know how to use Lychguard.

I've used mine both ways, Sword and Board and Scythes.

For the Scythes, honestly I try and get as many Reanimation Orbs in there as possible then teleport in through use of Nightscythe.

It's a fun unit but I don't feel it's very strong. Now Orikan + Lychguard is a different story.

Orikan and Sword an Board Lychguard are just not going to get killed anytime soon.

For reference

The Math on Sword and Boards is insane.

3+ , Reroll 1s, then 4+ is a great than 90% avoidance on wounds I believe.

The Calculation should be

4/6 x 1/6 x 3/6

FWIW the rate of failure on 3++ re-rolling 1's is actually .16666 + .16666*.3333 = .222. Then multiply that by 3/6 to get .111, so it is around 90% save rate. Just a different way of getting there. And Orikan + ANY unit is pretty bonkers

Hollismason wrote:
Well I mean he does want to know how to use Lychguard.

I've used mine both ways, Sword and Board and Scythes.

For the Scythes, honestly I try and get as many Reanimation Orbs in there as possible then teleport in through use of Nightscythe.

It's a fun unit but I don't feel it's very strong. Now Orikan + Lychguard is a different story.

Orikan and Sword an Board Lychguard are just not going to get killed anytime soon.

For reference

The Math on Sword and Boards is insane.

3+ , Reroll 1s, then 4+ is a great than 90% avoidance on wounds I believe.

The Calculation should be

4/6 x 1/6 x 3/6

Calculate failure instead.

1/6 chance of rolling a 1 followed by a 1/3=1/18 of failing the armor save on an initial roll of 1 then add1/6 of an initial armor save of 2=4/18 chance of failing the initial armor save. Goes down to 2/18 after rp for an even 1/9.

It works out to be the exact same as a 3+ reroll able.

You can get it even higher with a Orikan + Someone with Res Orb it comes out to a higher chance than that.

1/9 was with Orikan giving rerolls on 1s. Would go to 1/18 with a res orb.

tough as nails, but it's a very expensive and slow death star.

It's not as expensive as you think, plus the Royal Court's a Great way to add a "Super" Squad.

300 points for the squad and a royal court with Orikan can easily bump the cost up to 600. That's a lot for a squad without hit and run.

All my IG would need to tar pit it would be a 4+ invulnerable. I would usually have 6 chances or 8 at 2k to roll that power. Once it goes off 35 conscripts with a priest Would hardcore tarpit it. 58% of the time their invulnerable would be reroll able. it would take about 110 wounds to drop them, 132 s5 or higher hits, or 198 attacks from that death star.

Yeah IG is annoying with their tarpits

Good thing we have Flayed Ones to get rid of them.

 Nilok wrote:
Good thing we have Flayed Ones to get rid of them.

5 flayed ones would chew them up as fast as 10 sword and board. A list is less likely to have Flayed ones to spare after blowing 600 on a death star.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
Good thing we have Flayed Ones to get rid of them.

5 flayed ones would chew them up as fast as 10 sword and board. A list is less likely to have Flayed ones to spare after blowing 600 on a death star.

Honestly, due to how point efficient Flayed Ones are in melee and how tough they can be due to RP, I don't think I've made a list that doesn't have at least one group of them.
They are both excellent at distracting the opponent by have them in the back field threatening his units, and chewing through anything T5 or lower (and sometimes higher). They probably had the biggest buff of anything I've seen except for Sion from League of Legends.

I've yet to not use them and see them make a decisive play. I think the only game I had a problem was when my friend was playing with Mawlocs, but I was still popping 4+s.

They are surprisingly durable the Decurion makes it even better and it Agravates my friends Dakka Flyrants.

Fragile wrote:
Knights will eat scarab farms sadly

Are you sure? 20 bases has a decent chance of popping an IK in one round on the charge. Even with stomps and battle cannons you'll be putting more bases on than they can kill.

Tekron wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Knights will eat scarab farms sadly

Are you sure? 20 bases has a decent chance of popping an IK in one round on the charge. Even with stomps and battle cannons you'll be putting more bases on than they can kill.

The way you beat Knights is actually not to charge. You snuggle up with the IK and surround it and deny them their movement and assault move. The opponent is going to have a hard time getting the IK to earn its points if it only moves an inch a turn.

col_impact wrote:

Tekron wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Knights will eat scarab farms sadly

Are you sure? 20 bases has a decent chance of popping an IK in one round on the charge. Even with stomps and battle cannons you'll be putting more bases on than they can kill.

The way you beat Knights is actually not to charge. You snuggle up with the IK and surround it and deny them their movement and assault move. The opponent is going to have a hard time getting the IK to earn its points if it only moves an inch a turn.

IK then charges and it costs you 2 extra bases because of +1 attack and HoW.
The knight can still shoot something and then charge the scarabs.

Yeah, if the scarabs turn out not to have been adequate to kill the Knight, you've still trapped it for a while and stripped it down to normal vehicle numbers of hull points.

I don't know about the Scarabs V. Imperial Knight cause it does have 2 shots with the battle cannon which instant deaths them. So Not so sure that's a great play there.

So I've decided my tournament list won't feature a flyer. Even with the two Night Scythes I have, I won't be dropping Flyrants left and right, so I think it's better to focus on the ground game and surviving, using those 130-260 points on more Troops.

As before, my main core is a big Destroyer Cult (3 Heavies, 3x 2 normal + 1 Heavy) and a Conclave of the Burning One. I think having a lot of ObSec units that move up with them to hold objectives and just be bodies + more Rate of Fire is the proper option.

However, utilizing Flayed Ones, as you guys have said, is pretty solid. Relatively high damage output on anything other than vehicles/T8 (which is a lot of things) and Infiltrate/Outflank on the cheap is very good.

What do you think of this:

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, Phase Shifter)
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)

Conclave of the Burning One
Nightbringer
Cryptek (God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Veil of Darkness)
Cryptek (Phase Shifter, Solar Staff)

CAD
Lord (no upgrades)

Gauss Immortals x5
Gauss Immortals x5
Warriors x10
Warriors x10

Flayed Ones x5
Flayed Ones x5
Flayed Ones x5

1840

Still running the expensive Conclave, yes. I could put the Immortals into one unit of 10 instead of 2x5, but I think having more ground holding and ObSec units is more worthwhile. With 3+/5+++ and cover saves, they should be durable enough to not die immediately in most situations.

Alternatively, I could drop the Flayed Ones and put in 10 Tesla Immortals (or 2x5 Tesla Immortals) for even more firepower and ObSec, but then I lose pretty much any downfield presence other than maybe teleporting my Conclave.

I feel like the Flayed Ones can be used for both early game objective Infiltration and as charge deterrents for my Warriors/Immortals/Destroyers, but I also don't know if just having more shooting/ObSec bodies would be better overall.

I've also considered making this a Decurion, but I don't know if losing out on the mass ObSec is worth the durability, as I'm expecting to just hold objectives with this sort of list.

I think trading one unit of Flayed Ones for Tomb Blades and changing into a Decurion would be the best tweek. Upgrading everything in you current CAD and Cult to a 4+ RP is definitely worth it.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I think trading one unit of Flayed Ones for Tomb Blades and changing into a Decurion would be the best tweek. Upgrading everything in you current CAD and Cult to a 4+ RP is definitely worth it.

The only downside is that the way Adepticon rules it, each formation in the Decurion is unique, and that includes Flayed Ones and Deathmarks. So I would still have 10 Flayed Ones, but they would just be one unit of 10 rather than 2 units of 5. Which is still good, but I lose out on the ability to spread around and hold lots of objectives early on. Fairly well mitigated by the mobility of the Tomb Blades, however.

Actually I don't think that's how Adepticon rules it is it for the Decurion? If so that's kind of dumb.

You can still run the Decurion though I think you should go with that , make larger squads of the Flayed Ones.

I asked on the Forums and they said that's how it works. I'll try to clarify Thursday morning with a TO and bring two printouts of my list, but I don't want to rock the boat.

A CAD would have to change the Immortals to one unit of 8 instead of 2x5, just because a flat Overlord is 30 points more than a flat Lord. So it would look like this:

Conclave of the Burning One
Nightbringer
Cryptek (God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Veil of Darkness)
Cryptek (Phase Shifter, Solar Staff)

Decurion
Reclamation Legion
Overlord
Gauss Immortals x8
Warriors x10
Warriors x10
Tomb Blades (Gauss, Shields, Scopes) x3

Flayed Ones x10

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, Phase Shifter)
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)

2 less units overall from the CAD version and loses ObSec, but gains 4+++ on everything, making the Destroyers and Immortals effectively 2+ against anything that's not AP3 or better.

Alternatively, I could drop the Flayed Ones to 8 and take 2x5 Immortals.

Yeah the Flayed One and Deathmarks are not Formations at all. Their just Datalslates it even states that in the Decurion.

I think you'll be better served if you're playing the ground game to beef up every thing you can to larger units.

I'd drop a Phase Shifter out the Conclave for a 25 point save and go with Chronometron but that's just me.

Well, that's just how they're ruling it and I'm not particularly going to fight against it. Besides, it's not that big of an issue, you know?

No it's not really that big of a issue.

ObSec is fine and all that, but with no mobility, how are you going to get your obsec units across the battlefield?

2000pt list I've been toying around with and having decent success so far


Reclamation Legion

Barge Lord with a gauntlet of flame
10 Warriors with a Ghost Ark
10 Warriors with a Ghost Ark
7 tesla Immortals
5 Tomb Blades, 4 with shield vane, 5 with partical beamer, 5 with scopes

Judicator Battalion

7 Praetorians with rods
7 Praetorians with voidblades/casters
1 Triach Stalker

Deathmarks

5 Deathmarks

Canoptek Harvest

4 Wraiths
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder

Canoptek Harvest

4 Wraiths
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder