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 Tyran wrote:
The problem is that Necrons' damage output is actually quite low compared to their resistance. That in addition to the short ranges and the absurd Eldar mobility means they will be losing most shooting match against jetbikes. And wraiths will kill anything the jetbikes can't.

Meh, I'm not that worried. There's only so much board real estate, if we're moving forward, they can't move backwards forever. Not to mention we have our own mobility options in Veil of Darkness, Obyron, and Night Scythes.

Flayed Ones continue to be amazing units. A big unit (unit of 20 is only 230, nice and cheap) Infiltrated has to be dealt with by focus fire or dodging around it. Either way, the bulk of your army is ignored since it takes a surprising amount of firepower to kill 20 Decurion Flayed Ones. And if they're ignored, well, Flayed Ones are pretty good...

Can someone please explain to me what the various 'stars' are - I keep seeing Orikan star, death star etc etc. Thanks.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Can someone please explain to me what the various 'stars' are - I keep seeing Orikan star, death star etc etc. Thanks.

Deathstar is a general term - a single unit that requires a lot of points to field and is scary, usually due to Independent Characters joining the unit to give them bonuses or just be amazing beatsticks. Thunderwolfstar is a lot of Thunderwolf Calvary with Characters that give them things like a 2+/3++ character, FNP, or Hit and Run. Screamerstar is Daemon Screamers of Tzeentch with one or more Heralds of Tzeentch to make them unkillable with buffs and Psychic powers, while making them pretty good at killing things with divination bonuses.

Orikanstar is one of the Necron stars. It's Lychguard upgraded with Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion Shields for a 3++ save. Orikan joins the unit, letting them reroll 1s, and buffing their Reanimate to a 4+ if they didn't have it from the Decurion (and lets them keep the 4+ against Instant Death). Often, you add in other characters. Zahndrekh is usually added for his possible special rules and giving the unit Fearless. Obyron can come in because he's amazing in Assault. Lords/Overlords/Destroyer Lords get added for more Warscythes. And if you put one of those characters in front with a 2+ save, against anything that doesn't ignore armor they have a 2+ armor rerolling, which is crazy good.

Orikanstar basically kills everything it reaches (lots of S5 AP3 attacks, a good amount of S7 AP2 attacks) and is hard to kill. I think it's one of the best things in the book, but I'm a bit biased because I've always loved Orikan and also Lychguard.

 Tyran wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Destroyer Lords can tank those shots if their strong enough.

Honestly looks like best counter is going to be AV13.

Dunno what the hell to do about the D-Cannons.

Normal Destroyer Lords will die to 10 jetbikes a turn.

A Destroyer Lord with a 2+ will die to 20 jetbikes.

A Decurion Destroyer Lord with a 2+ will die to 27 jetbikes

But rerolleable 2+ with Orikan is still practically unkillable... well until it gets hit by a d-weapon.

I don't think the math is correct on this.

Decurion Destroyer Lord w/ Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Reanimation Orb


27 x 4 = 108 x .66 = 71 x .50 = 35.64 Wounds

35.64 x .17 = 6.05 wounds

6.05 wounds x .5 ( no orb) = 3.02

Activate Orb and he survives

Actually a better statistical load out would be

Destroyer Lord w/ out Nightmare

Warscythe , Phase Shifter, Res Orb, Orb of Eternity

35.64 x .34= 12.11

12.11 = 3.02

Look out sir some wounds and you'd be okay.

I'm pretty sure Destroyer Lord have 3 wounds.

It's exactly 3 so with the Decurion bonus and a res orb you'll survive it with some look out sirs and they'd probably survive that. So you could in fact tank the majority of the entire volume of fire.

It looks like meching up and taking MSU maybe the way to go...

Barge Lord w/ Survive everything but the D-Shots, ST6 doesn't hurt him he can fire back with the Gauss and Staff

Destroyers would probable be good as well T5 , 2 Wounds 3+ and 4+ is pretty good.

The issue with that Destroyer Lord math is that you're calculating him at T6. If he's in a unit, he's going to use their toughness. Probably 5 if he's attached to Wraiths, Praetorians, or Lychguard, but also possibly attached to Immortals or Warriors for T4, at which point he's wounded on 2s.

gak, you're right I was. Okay well that's out the window.
I still think Res Orbs are the way to go now.
Have no idea what to do with the D shots however.
Large packs of Flayed ones would be good, cheap lots of attacks and reroll wounds.

I mean here are my solutions

Wraithknight

1. D-Lord w/ Deathmarks
2. H. Destroyers from the Cult
3. Scarabs (LOL)

Wraithguard
1. Flayed ones
2. Tomb Blades ?
3. Conclave of the Burning One?

Jetbikes
1. AV13
2. AV13 and a large unit of Warriors
3. Tomb Blades
4. Destroyers

I've been running Orikan-star with wraiths to pretty decent success (although I realized that it actually only lets models with RP re-roll saving throws of 1. Sort of an odd distinction but pretty clear to my reading of Orikan's rules. Could be a GW intent fail but doesn't look like it works to have wraiths benefit from Orikan's re-roll ones rule).

I run that squad with a D lord with a nightmare shroud (as any orikan star should IMO to give a re-rollable 2+, followed by 4+ RP outside of a decurion, then maybe he has a res orb because it wasn't stupidly durable enough). Orikan is slow, no ifs ands or buts. However, pile-in moves are awesome. Consolidations are sweet. 40mm bases are bigger than you think. And since wraiths don't know what terrain is, you only get charging penalties when orikan or the D lord go through terrain. You will never have fleet, sadly; however you can break Orikan off once he transforms to terrify some marines, and the D Lord does as he pleases late game.

Why do you think Orikan only let's you reroll 1s on models with Reanimation Protocols?

Hollismason wrote:
Why do you think Orikan only let's you reroll 1s on models with Reanimation Protocols?

I think it is because of the wording of Orikan's master Chronomancer "Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocol special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of 1." The re-roll only works for Orikan and any models with the Reanimation protocol SR.





Open question. What is the goldilocks number for a unit of triarch stalkers backing up unit(s) of heavy destroyers to take down MCs(like the WK coming our way soon)? I'm thinking two or three and using them as a mobile wall for the H.destroyers to move in front of the stalkers take their shots then JSJ back behind them/other LOS blocking terrain to give them some kind of cover save vs s6 spam from bikes and would the HGC been a good pick if looking for range to shoot with the H.destoyers? (trying to see other uses with normal CAD)


Been thinking about a gunboat style list vs mass s6 and was wondering if having MSU ghoatarks+10warriors with stalkers, nightscyhtes and AAbarges/doomscythes would be a sturdy start to go with. Mass av13 that can't be touched by the jetbikes and ton o shooting to take down anything that can

Hollismason wrote:
Why do you think Orikan only let's you reroll 1s on models with Reanimation Protocols?

Oberron hit the nail on the head. As worded, they have "all models with the reanimation protocol special rule in the unit.....can re-roll saving throws of 1"

Personally I think that GW doesn't know how to English and intended for the whole unit to get it (and that's how I think most people play it, although I don't think that most people play Orikan with wraiths anyhow). But you'd have to move the clause "with the reanimation protocol special rule" out from the middle of "all models" and "in the unit" for it to actually mean that. I mean, I really do want my wraith OrikanStar to work, but it's not even worth asking a TO over. God knows GW will never FAQ it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FWIW I think Necrons have the least to worry about with the new jetbikes. We have the volume of fire to take down those glass cannons (which is what they are). The big issue is that they can sit at range 36 and then just get out of dodge with their assault move, so our standard guns have some trouble. But Necrons do have board control over them in a big way. Also Night scythes are nice, both for dropping off cargo to pincer and for the extreme mobility.

Yeah, by the wording the wraiths would need to be in a harvest within 12" of the Spyder giving them RP to get the re-roll 1's. So it's doable, since Orikan is limiting the move speed anyway to keep the Spyder hiding behind the star.

Shikei wrote:
Yeah, by the wording the wraiths would need to be in a harvest within 12" of the Spyder giving them RP to get the re-roll 1's. So it's doable, since Orikan is limiting the move speed anyway to keep the Spyder hiding behind the star.

And the Spyder still dies to focus fire.

I admit to only having used the Harvest ~3-4 times, but every time I felt like it's only ok. Wraiths by themselves are just fine without the Spyder, and a single Spyder feels like a free kill point against many armies, especially if they can Alpha Strike before it gets RP off.

Then again, I just straight up prefer Lychguard

So I've been contemplating the new Eldar codex, and I've decided that I'm actually a bit excited for the shift in meta and for fighting the Eldar in particular. Many of their units and the army capabilities/composition as a whole will shift our internal balance so that units which are less used now are used, or our current staples are used differently.

Jetbike spam means Monoliths, Anni Barges, Doomsday Barges (and their formation) and Vauts/Pylons becomes more common.

Wraithknights mean I no longer feel awkward for taking a Vault - and I'd love to see the duel between one and an Enclave group (Pray your Solar Staff holds up that first turn).

Imagine using the Monolith/Pylon formation to wedge jetbikes between the rest of your armies firepower and invulnerable pie plates?

Hell, they almost make me want to use the Stormlord - hitting the whole board with d6 S6 hits per unit would wipe more than a few jetbikes, and hopefully take some aspects and guardians with them.

Anyone else excited to see things shift, or have looked at less popular units because of it?

Monoliths will suffer because the D-weapons. They still aren't worth it.

That suggestion was geared more towards Jetbikes, since there's no face to the Monolith they can hurt, while facing numerous Gauss and pie plate shots, and able to teleport in another unit and force the jetbikes between both halves of your army.

The wraithknight counter is probably Enclave, Orikan-Star (?), Vault, Pylon, or just massive amounts of Warriors with supplementary Ghost Ark and maybe an attached HQ for Orb/Solar Staff and fish for 6's.

Vault outranges and in many cases out-damages the knight.
Apoc blast? S8 AP3 with greater range. or S6 AP4 Ignores cover.

Alternatively:
Assault 20 S6? (Does Strikedown work on GC?)
Assault 6 S7 AP4 Apoc. Barrage
Assault 2 S: DAP1 (!!)
Asssault 2 S9 AP 1 Tesla (Pray for 6's, laugh maniacally).

With 9 HP AND four Tesla Spheres, it'll survive at least a round in most circumstances even if you do nothing to protect it, and will happily eat anything that comes close.

I do like the idea of dropping in a Vault, Obselisk, or Mono into a Jetbike horde and laying down some ridiculous fighter. Might even be able to hit on all four arcs if you're lucky.

Yeah ferros your ideas are cool, I played the conclave recently and the power level made me re-think C'tan / made me want a vault.

2 things.
1.vault gets rekt by D-weapons, just bring all the deathmarks +maybe, conflagrator Dlord, to intercept any D-weapon DS/ hunt down artillery.

2. if a WK gets into CC with the vault, automatic Titanic explosion, even running it into their lines is usefull.

Oh and id say D-cult is probably best for WK's always wound on 6's re-roll, and ignores 3+

1. Provided the Vault isn't hit by a 6, which he has a chance to survive, he should at least make it two rounds of shooting while having better range and the majority of the time comparable (or greater) fire power. Deathmarks should be anyway to intercept anything trying to take out your AV in the backfield (Which presumably is brought to wreck jetbikes). Deathmarks are nice but they won't last more than a single engagement

2. Good point! I hadn't mentioned it - don't let it explode in your own phase, but yes, it can be used as a bomb if you put it mid-field. Pray you go round one, and it's almost guaranteed to make up the points you spend.

D-Cult is pretty darn good, I forgot to mention that for some reason. Problem is they can be focused by everything else and will likely be dead turn 2 if not turn 1. I'd expect any competant Eldar player to delete our high hitters with their jetbikes, leaving MSU/Characters/Vehicles to their D-Weapons. Beside, Apocalyptic Blast/Barrage will almost always be hitting quiet a few more units than the WK itself. So you're either going to hit a huge amount of units, throw 20 dice at the WK, or fire off several almost-guaranteed wounds. Roll for the 2 S: D shots and enjoy the result

The Vault is still kinda eh to me. Expensive, dies to all that new D, has random shooting profiles. If I'm taking a superheavy, the Obelisk is cheaper and worthwhile since it'll deny mobility to all of those Jetbikes and still put out lots of shooting.

Conclave seems like a good idea for countering the Wraithknight. Gaze does well against it, Fleshbane works. But if it brings the D weapon... a 3 model unit is going to get wrecked, especially since the Crypteks are getting instakilled. And try catching a Wraithknight with a Conclave... it won't end well.

Orikanstar has similar issues catching it, and has the issue of all of its durability being negated by the D weaponry. But, overall, a decent choice. Only issue is that even the Warscythes are only wounding on 5+, but depending on how many you put in there it's probably fine.

Pylons are great. The Death Ray and Heat Cannon will wreck most everything in the Eldar army. They pay fairly dearly for it in points, but still, the damage output is real. Heck, throw Orikan and maybe a tanking Overlord on it for gaks and giggles.

Destroyer Cult is... it'll do decently well against the Wraithknight, unless it's an Assault WK in which case they're kinda boned and you spent a lot of points. Bikes will outrange and outmaneuver them, but they can weather lots of the shooting and stick to cover. As multiwound models without Invulns, they'll get recked by Wraithguard. I don't know if I'd bring them if I knew I was going against Eldar.

Yes, the Vault will be wrecked, by with every weapon having 48" profile (Or higher, I think, on one of the last two) and every one being useful against a WK, or able to hit the WK in addition to surrounding units, you'll rarely not do decent work. Apocalyptic Barrage, Blast, Assault 20, S: D, or S: 9 AP: 1 Tesla with two hits minimum.

None of that is bad in my book. Maybe throw Spyders nearby to repair as much damage as possible. I believe it also has IWND in addition.

Remember though, that destroyers are jetpack, so you can DS them, getting into range before you get shot to bits.

harkequin wrote:
Yeah ferros your ideas are cool, I played the conclave recently and the power level made me re-think C'tan / made me want a vault.

2 things.
1.vault gets rekt by D-weapons, just bring all the deathmarks +maybe, conflagrator Dlord, to intercept any D-weapon DS/ hunt down artillery.

2. if a WK gets into CC with the vault, automatic Titanic explosion, even running it into their lines is usefull.

Oh and id say D-cult is probably best for WK's always wound on 6's re-roll, and ignores 3+

Yeah Wraithknight would hate that. I mean it would have its FNP.

The qyestion is just whether or not you can get those 6s past the FNP 6 times. Its still improbable though a good call.

Well if WKs start popping up in my LGS, I wont feel bad bringing some Daemon lords of war. I don't own any necron ones, but have considered that giant pylon from time to time.

I have also been eyeing the Gauss Pylon, the superheavy Str D 3 shot skyfire interceptor one. Also gives a +5 invul to itself and all necron units with at least 1 model in 12", which is nothing to scoff at. Enjoy our extra durability!

Has anyone used it? It's 120" range, and also has a weaker alternative fire for if there are no large targets to shoot. The point cost is the same as that famous stoner holiday, so it will be almost a full 1/3 of a 1500pt list.

Are D LoW any good?

Most eldar players should be able to fit at least 2 WKs in their army while running all the bells and whistles. Unless your playing with heaps of army comp.

So any vault will either be toast before your turn if eldar goes first or toast after your first turn. A 1v1 match the vault is okay but 1v2 its done son.


I can see why the Trantan and Tvault got super nerfed in thr new book. As both with their old rules could drop a WK a turn with ease. :/

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Are D LoW any good?

Out of our 4 LoW units:

Imotekh is situationally good. If you build to utilize him, he's great. Reserve manipulation, good gun, Storm isn't too bad, and he's durable. I think his best utilization is part of an army utilizing 2-3 Night Scythes, he can help them get in easily and then when dropped, his 3 shot S6 AP2 gun can do some serious work. Or, as part of a midfield unit in an army using Deep Striking things (especially Flayed Ones). Basically, as long as you plan to utilize his abilities, he's good. As a generalist, he's outclassed by other HQs.

Pylon is about useless. As of right now, it still has Skyfire and Interceptor on the only gun, so against most things that you want to shoot it at, it does nothing. Wait for Forge World to upgrade it (maybe in the next 2 years haha).

Tesseract Vault is one that I dunno about yet. It's expensive as hell and the shooting attack is random, but all of the profiles are at least somewhat powerful. I think it's a poor option compared to other Superheavies and indeed even compared to the Obelisk, but some people really like it.

Obelisk is great. Lots of shooting, durable, and (relatively) cheap. You can put out an extremely stupid amount of S7 shots and really put the hurt on certain skimmers/jetbikes/flyers. Just agree with your opponent about certain rules before using. For instance, FMCs are MCs, so they have MTC and auto-pass Dangerous Terrain, but they're forced to take one from Gravity Pulse. It's obvious the intention was to force them to take it even though they'd auto-pass, but RAW it's kinda silly.
Additionally, there's some finnicky rulings about the type of weapon mountings on the Tesla Spheres. It's agreed that the intention was that they should get a full degree of movement (come on, spheres for crying out loud), but as modeled there's some controversy that they might be hull mounted and not get to rotate to the side. In which case you could almost never get more than one gun on a single unit.
It's obvious that RAI they should get more movement, but GW has said nothing on the matter and people will bicker about the modeled guns. I would argue in favor of full horizontal movement, but if the ruling is hull mounted, then it drops in effectiveness.

If you haven't spent the $165 on the obelisk/tvault/trantan I would honestly recomend not at this point.

Eldar have all the tools for wrecking super heavies with the quickness. I think they are an utter waste of points.

P.S. I've seen zero concensus on the spheres for the tvault/obelisk. Walking in expecting will get you nothing but hurt feelings. If I were a non necron player I'd immediately contend it an watch fail to try an prove your side as RAI gets you nowhere.

Yeah, if I was thinking of bringing an Obelisk I'd have a secondary list and if they say something before the game starts, just switch lists. It's not worth arguing without an official ruling from either GW (haha good luck) or an Event Organizer.

Yeah dunno what to do when someone takes 2 Wraith Knights, a Crimson Hunter Formation and then the Windrider Detachment.