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I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,

How effective is a full destroyer cult (9x destroyers 3x HV Destroyers) against the Knight? considering he will most likely have a 4+ cover save in the open (due to admech/skiitari buff thing) even if you manage to position to bypass his shielding. If any one is good at math hammer could you provide some statistics as to how many wounds would be inflicted and if it can be downed in One or Two turns?

Thx before hand for any reply.

Ejderhare wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,

How effective is a full destroyer cult (9x destroyers 3x HV Destroyers) against the Knight? considering he will most likely have a 4+ cover save in the open (due to admech/skiitari buff thing) even if you manage to position to bypass his shielding. If any one is good at math hammer could you provide some statistics as to how many wounds would be inflicted and if it can be downed in One or Two turns?

Thx before hand for any reply.

3 destroyers = 6 shots = .71 Hull Points
6 * to hit with preferred enemy * to glance with reroll * cover/invul
6 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((5/6)*(1/6))) * .5 = .71 HPs

3 Heavy Destroyers = 3 shots = .583 pens and .292 glances
to pen assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/3)+((1/2)*(1/3))) * .5 = .583 penetrating hits
to glance assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((1/2)*(1/6))) * .5 = .292 glancing hits

So in total. You should remove 3 Hull Points from an Imperial Knight with a full volley from a Destroyer Cult against the front armor with 4+ invul or cover. This is not factoring in the possibility of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.

I prefer to play with a Heavy Destroyer in each Destroyer Group. If you do this you'll do about 4 Hull Points total plus a better chance of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.

Obviously your odds improve if you fire at the side armor with Heavy Destroyers. But for regular Destroyers it doesn't matter if you're hitting AV 12 or 13. The only reason to attack different angles is to bypass the shield and effectively double your damage output for one of the units.

So with proper positioning, a Heavy Destroyer in every unit, and a little luck... you should be able to destroyer a IK in a single turn with just the Destroyer Cult.

Zimko wrote:

Ejderhare wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,

How effective is a full destroyer cult (9x destroyers 3x HV Destroyers) against the Knight? considering he will most likely have a 4+ cover save in the open (due to admech/skiitari buff thing) even if you manage to position to bypass his shielding. If any one is good at math hammer could you provide some statistics as to how many wounds would be inflicted and if it can be downed in One or Two turns?

Thx before hand for any reply.

3 destroyers = 6 shots = .71 Hull Points
6 * to hit with preferred enemy * to glance with reroll * cover/invul
6 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((5/6)*(1/6))) * .5 = .71 HPs

3 Heavy Destroyers = 3 shots = .583 pens and .292 glances
to pen assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/3)+((1/2)*(1/3))) * .5 = .583 penetrating hits
to glance assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((1/2)*(1/6))) * .5 = .292 glancing hits

So in total. You should remove 3 Hull Points from an Imperial Knight with a full volley from a Destroyer Cult against the front armor with 4+ invul or cover. This is not factoring in the possibility of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.

I prefer to play with a Heavy Destroyer in each Destroyer Group. If you do this you'll do about 4 Hull Points total plus a better chance of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.

Obviously your odds improve if you fire at the side armor with Heavy Destroyers. But for regular Destroyers it doesn't matter if you're hitting AV 12 or 13. The only reason to attack different angles is to bypass the shield and effectively double your damage output for one of the units.

So with proper positioning, a Heavy Destroyer in every unit, and a little luck... you should be able to destroyer a IK in a single turn with just the Destroyer Cult.

Thx a lot for that, seems like the D-cult can handle the knight really well.. appreciate the effort. I guess if you supported them with a volley or two from some warriors they should take him down with out problems in 1 turn... =)

Just a reminder: you don't want to be relying on gauss for anti-AV.
Yes, a unit of Warriors might be able to strip a hull point or two if they're lucky, but if your entire strategy centers on making sure they do X amount of HP before the Destroyers sweep in and finish them off, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

 skoffs wrote:
Just a reminder: you don't want to be relying on gauss for anti-AV.

Says the army that relies on gauss to kill anything.

So, has anyone tried Triarch Stalkers to a large degree? Should I take Heat ray, HGC, or Particle shredder?

Im thinking of acquiring one for use as front-line fire support, so what are the recommendations?

The Heatray is where it is at. Otherwise, if you're only using it to enhance Heavy Destroyers, go with the TLHGC as well.

I glued the heat rays on mine and used the heavy gauss bits to make my heavy destroyers. My thinking at the time was that a normal multimelta is great, so a two-shot multimelta was a no-brainer. However, in practice, I have found that my stalkers get nowhere near 12" melta range before exploding.

So the twin heavy gauss might not be as bad a choice as I originally thought. That extra foot of range really would have come in handy at times, even if it is only one shot.

Not that a two-shot multimelta is bad, mind you. I still believe it to have superior smashing power. But it does seem to be a little more difficult to utilize to its full effectiveness.

Heavy Gauss Cannons are probably the better choice just purely given range and the slow speed of the walkers. Especially like Slayer said - if you're sitting them next to Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers, you probably won't/shouldn't be close enough to use the Heat Ray.

That said, it can be meta dependent. Heat Rays are better Knight busters since they're going to run up in your face, and good against Drop Pod Imperials (if they don't go boom first). Not to mention cheaper if you're looking to cut points.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Just a reminder: you don't want to be relying on gauss for anti-AV.

Says the army that relies on gauss to kill anything.

The keyword is "rely".
Yes, gauss is a nifty gimmick, but that's all it is: a gimmick.
Something to make other armies quiver at the thought of.
"Oh no! He has gauss weapons! Those things can kill any vehicle in the game! I better keep my tanks faaaaaar away from them!!"
When in reality, if people knew how statistically unreliable gauss was as an anti-AV measure, no one would be even remotely concerned.

You really want to be bringing something that has a realistically better chance of hurting their armor, such as Warscythes or Heavy Destroyers or Doom Scythes, to make a more effective army list, particularly if you're going TAC or competitive.

Gauss is great against AV 14 because there it's performing just as well as str 8 AP 1 weapons and will absolutely manhandle landraiders.

Gauss struggles against low AV cheap rhino or pod spam because there it's only performing as well as s6 AP 1 and will struggle to be efficient points wise.

So yes hide your landraiders but drown the crons in rhinos, trukks, pods, and free transports.

There's been a lot of anti-AdMech discussion thus far, but how about PRO-AdMech discussion?

Is there much they can bring to the table for that might shore up our weaknesses?
More importantly, is there anything they can do that another ally can't do better?

Both Ad-Mech armies are somewhat synergy-based and don't work that well as small allied detachments. At least not when the main army isn't battle brothers with them.

Back when the cult mechanicus codex came out I thought about getting a unit of kataphron destroyers (the grav servitors) and a tech priest dominus as allies for my necrons, but at BS3 those things are kinda bad unless you have a way of giving them re-rolls to hit. And we already have destroyers, it would've been confusing.

Funny enough, Annihilation Barges are great against Admech. At least Skitarii, in my experience.

Hi guys,

Quick question regarding Death Marks. Since the turn they come in they wound on 2+ if coming from reserves (Ap 2 on 6'es) and their weapons are strength X does this also mean that they wound vehicles on a 2+ and after that on a 4+ due to sniper rules? or cant they do anything vs vehicles?

Might be a stupid question but i'm a new player and trying to get my head around them.

Ejderhare wrote:
Hi guys,

Quick question regarding Death Marks. Since the turn they come in they wound on 2+ if coming from reserves (Ap 2 on 6'es) and their weapons are strength X does this also mean that they wound vehicles on a 2+ and after that on a 4+ due to sniper rules? or cant they do anything vs vehicles?

Might be a stupid question but i'm a new player and trying to get my head around them.

Vehicles don't have/take wounds. They have hull points.

Well i figured that was the case.. but thx for clarifying.. so in short they cant do anything to vehicles...

So... I got crushed by Ravenwing on sunday.

List I played:

Decurion
Rec Legion:
Nemesor Zahndrek
7 lychguard (swords/shields)
10 immortals, tesla, NS
10 warriors, GA
10 warriors, GA
3 tomb blades (shield vanes, nebuloscopes, beamers)

Royal Court
Overlord in CCB (gauntlet of the conflagrator, warscythe, phase shifter, phylactery, tesla)
Orikan the diviner
Vargard Obyron

Canoptek Harvest
canoptek spider (particle beamer)
3 scarab bases
5 wraiths (3 whip coils)

So... straight up the CCB was a bit of a waste (great model, but sooo many points - should have been a standard overlord to join the immortals in the NS for a guaranteed flame attack with the gauntlet). I have 3 more tomb blades to build (need as many nebuloscopes as possible!). The beamer on the spider was ok, but generally you need to run him to keep up with the wraiths and scarabs.

My opponent ran approximately:
CAD
2 librarians on bikes
2 units of 5 bolter scouts
Ravenwing detachment
Sammael
Black Knights
Ravenwing bike squad
2 darkshrouds
3 typhoons w/melta
2 dark talons (VORTEX OUCH!)
1 nephilim jetfighter

I think the shroud/typhoons were part of a formation that gives some silly overwatch nonsense (similar to tau supporting fire).

I did roll pretty awfully, and the game ended 10-7 maelstrom, but I felt badly outclassed. I should have gone for the darkshrouds but didn't have much long-ranged weaponry and they still have that stupid-good 3+ re-rollable jink nonsense (seriously, who at geederps central thought that was a good idea?)

A few questions, guys:

1) How do you equip/use a CCB in a decurion list?

2) How do you equip/use a foot Overlord in a decurion list?

In terms of the latter, I have a particular model I'd like to use, but I never really know what to do with foot overlords in this book.

3) How do you deal with a pair of Dreadknights that will be at your doorstep on turn 1?

 vipoid wrote:
A few questions, guys:

1) How do you equip/use a CCB in a decurion list?

2) How do you equip/use a foot Overlord in a decurion list?

In terms of the latter, I have a particular model I'd like to use, but I never really know what to do with foot overlords in this book.

3) How do you deal with a pair of Dreadknights that will be at your doorstep on turn 1?

1. I usually bring either a Staff of Light with a Gauss Cannon and just hang around my guys for the LD reroll and for more AP3 shooting, or I equip him with a Warscythe and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator for obvious reasons. Either way, I give him a Phylactery and Phase Shifter.

2. Phylactery and Phase Shifter minimum. Then, I personally run him with a Gauntlet of Fire, Voidreaper, and occasionally a Res Orb depending on where I put him. And speaking of that, if I run one on foot, I play to the fluff and put him with a group of Sword and Board Lychguard. Very durable unit, good hitting power, and fluffy/fun on the table.

3. Are you tailoring for it? Nightbringer + Deceiver would to well. Gaze of Death would eat one for the most part (3D6 - LD at minus 2), and their shooting attacks (might get lucky with a D weapon or the Thunderbolt) would do damage. Then they could charge and would hold up well against them in CC. Eternal Warrior and a 4++, and Nightbringer has a higher WS and Fleshbane. If you're not tailoring, Judicator Battalion would do well against them, focus one down in shooting, shoot/tarpit the other until the Praetorians can make their way over there. Also, a Destroyer Cult might do well. Plus, of course, Wraiths.

 vipoid wrote:
A few questions, guys:

1) How do you equip/use a CCB in a decurion list?

2) How do you equip/use a foot Overlord in a decurion list?

In terms of the latter, I have a particular model I'd like to use, but I never really know what to do with foot overlords in this book.

3) How do you deal with a pair of Dreadknights that will be at your doorstep on turn 1?

1) I haven't, but I would take just a warscythe and maybe a phylactery if I had points. Big expensive CCBs don't work anymore, because it's too easy to kill the barge in assault and bypass reanimation.
2) I always take Zahndrekh, and usually join him into a unit of lychguard.
3) Tie them up with wraiths and hope for good saves and/or lots of rends, mostly. Praetorians would probably be pretty good against them, but I haven't tried that. NDKs are a bit problematic, as they can instakill even destroyer lords with force. If they didn't have force weapons, a warscythe lychguard unit plus a destroyer lord to tank wounds would be pretty good against them.

 krodarklorr wrote:

1. I usually bring either a Staff of Light with a Gauss Cannon and just hang around my guys for the LD reroll and for more AP3 shooting, or I equip him with a Warscythe and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator for obvious reasons. Either way, I give him a Phylactery and Phase Shifter.

What targets do you send them after?

 krodarklorr wrote:

2. Phylactery and Phase Shifter minimum. Then, I personally run him with a Gauntlet of Fire, Voidreaper, and occasionally a Res Orb depending on where I put him. And speaking of that, if I run one on foot, I play to the fluff and put him with a group of Sword and Board Lychguard. Very durable unit, good hitting power, and fluffy/fun on the table.

Interesting. Do you run a minimum unit of Lychguard?

 krodarklorr wrote:

3. Are you tailoring for it? Nightbringer + Deceiver would to well. Gaze of Death would eat one for the most part (3D6 - LD at minus 2), and their shooting attacks (might get lucky with a D weapon or the Thunderbolt) would do damage. Then they could charge and would hold up well against them in CC. Eternal Warrior and a 4++, and Nightbringer has a higher WS and Fleshbane. If you're not tailoring, Judicator Battalion would do well against them, focus one down in shooting, shoot/tarpit the other until the Praetorians can make their way over there. Also, a Destroyer Cult might do well. Plus, of course, Wraiths.

I hadn't been planning to tailor against it, no. I generally run a Decurion with Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest (6 Wraiths with Whip Coils, min scarabs). Unfortunately, I lack the Stalker necessary for the Judicator Battalion.

 MLKTH wrote:

1) I haven't, but I would take just a warscythe and maybe a phylactery if I had points. Big expensive CCBs don't work anymore, because it's too easy to kill the barge in assault and bypass reanimation.
2) I always take Zahndrekh, and usually join him into a unit of lychguard.

What about if you were using a non-SC Overlord?

 MLKTH wrote:

3) Tie them up with wraiths and hope for good saves and/or lots of rends, mostly. Praetorians would probably be pretty good against them, but I haven't tried that. NDKs are a bit problematic, as they can instakill even destroyer lords with force. If they didn't have force weapons, a warscythe lychguard unit plus a destroyer lord to tank wounds would be pretty good against them.

I'll bear that in mind, thanks.

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

1. I usually bring either a Staff of Light with a Gauss Cannon and just hang around my guys for the LD reroll and for more AP3 shooting, or I equip him with a Warscythe and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator for obvious reasons. Either way, I give him a Phylactery and Phase Shifter.

What targets do you send them after?

 krodarklorr wrote:

2. Phylactery and Phase Shifter minimum. Then, I personally run him with a Gauntlet of Fire, Voidreaper, and occasionally a Res Orb depending on where I put him. And speaking of that, if I run one on foot, I play to the fluff and put him with a group of Sword and Board Lychguard. Very durable unit, good hitting power, and fluffy/fun on the table.

Interesting. Do you run a minimum unit of Lychguard?

 krodarklorr wrote:

3. Are you tailoring for it? Nightbringer + Deceiver would to well. Gaze of Death would eat one for the most part (3D6 - LD at minus 2), and their shooting attacks (might get lucky with a D weapon or the Thunderbolt) would do damage. Then they could charge and would hold up well against them in CC. Eternal Warrior and a 4++, and Nightbringer has a higher WS and Fleshbane. If you're not tailoring, Judicator Battalion would do well against them, focus one down in shooting, shoot/tarpit the other until the Praetorians can make their way over there. Also, a Destroyer Cult might do well. Plus, of course, Wraiths.

I hadn't been planning to tailor against it, no. I generally run a Decurion with Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest (6 Wraiths with Whip Coils, min scarabs). Unfortunately, I lack the Stalker necessary for the Judicator Battalion.

Depends on who I'm playing. Eldar, he would go after jetbikes, as he's immune to their damage. Dark Eldar, he'd go after pretty much anything. Marines he would just go around HoWing into vehicles, slicing them to bits, killing things the rest of the army would have trouble hurting or getting to.

I usually run a minimum of 5, yes. They prove to be resilient enough that more is just overkill.

And that sucks mayne, the Stalkers are awesome in that formation.

 vipoid wrote:

 MLKTH wrote:

2) I always take Zahndrekh, and usually join him into a unit of lychguard.

What about if you were using a non-SC Overlord?

I tried using a generic overlord so I could get a veil of darkness without taking any other characters, but after my lychguard ran away from a critical close combat a couple of times I decided it wasn't working. Zealot is just that damn good, IMO. The build I was using cost exactly the same as zahndrekh (scythe, shifter & veil). I could see myself taking an overlord with just a warscythe and nothing else to save points if I was running, for example, an MSU list based on multiple minimum sized harvests at 1500 points. My current list at 1500 is decurion with just a destroyer cult (with 5 lychguard with warscythes and 3 units of tomb blades in the reclamation legion), at 1850 I'll add either a harvest (max wraiths, min scarabs, no upgrades on anything) or a royal court and one more lychguard to go full on deathstar.

I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.

 MLKTH wrote:

I tried using a generic overlord so I could get a veil of darkness without taking any other characters, but after my lychguard ran away from a critical close combat a couple of times I decided it wasn't working. Zealot is just that damn good, IMO.

Yeah, it's a shame generic Overlords don't have more support stuff.

 FTGTEvan wrote:
I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.

What does an MSU Necron list look like?

 FTGTEvan wrote:
I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.

I've come to a similar conclusion as of late. Our Deathstars are great, except against other Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. As we don't have a really fast Deathstar (as seem to be the ones that work nowadays), I'm more inclined to just go MSU and mitigate it.

What does your MSU list look like? Are you a Decurion? I think the DCult works great for a MSU list as Destroyer units are pretty durable and mobile, as well as killy for their points costs.

Decurion or not, if you're planning on going Necron MSU, you better be abusing the hell out of Tomb Blades.

Multiple min Harvests also work pretty well for MSU builds.
(I made a fun list using nothing but Harvest detachments. Think I ended up with 7 of them, but it was more of a Scarab Farm focus, with all the Spyders sporting guns and a couple decked out Wraith units to run interface. Actually looked semi-viable)

I was 4 - 2 at NOVA this year with a Decurion containing Harvest, Jud and DCult.



My two loses were both in relic missions vs objective secured units. The first was against Tomb King's Eldar/Tau list (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/662831.page). He swooped in with jetbikes on the last turn to control the relic. I tried to surround it but he just shot up a few Destroyers and made himself a hole. This list was really tough but I was happy to squeak out 12 points to his 18.

The second loss (relic and Hammer and Anvil deployment) was against a Gladius formation with Khan and a unit of Cents. The Cents killed my wraiths right off the bat but then my Praets killed them in return. The rest of the game was just a frantic race to try and kill his objective secured units. It didn't work since he was able to outflank and tank shock onto my objectives due to the hammer and anvil deployment. I did manage to surround one of his razorbacks and kill it and the unit inside with warriors, so that was a small victory.

My other games were against a Gladius without Khan, 2 different triple Tyrant lists and an Eldar list.

I hope to post more detailed reports in the Battle Report section this weekend. But regarding the discussion of MSU... yeah I think MSU is the way to go. If I ran a deathstar, it would not have changed the outcome of my two losses. I simply wouldn't have enough units to kill all the objective secured models.