New Necrons 7th Edition Tactica

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**ShadarLogoth**

C'tans are terrible in general now, even with the conclave. In a game where everyone spams as much high strength shooting as possible and mobility is the name of the game, all of the C'tans are just not worth it. Sure, put the Nightbringer in the Conclave. That's a ton more points you've invested in a still slow moving MC that will die to any amount of fire power. And on his own, he's a Land Raider that dies to bolt guns before getting anywhere. .

If you are running an NB in a Conclave and he is dying before turn 3 at the absolute earliest you are doing something tragically wrong. It's not the model's fault, mate.

Also, do you have any idea how many bolter shots it takes to bring down T7? It's a lot more then some people seem to think. More often then not, if your opponent is dumb enough to throw bolters into your C'tan, you are going to win the game merely due to the net loss in firepower.

However, Conclave/God Shackle is definitely the most competitive way to take them.

I've also run Deceive with some pretty specific uses of Grand Illusion in mind as a backfield unit, but that tends to work best against aggressive armies.

**skoffs**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I've also run Deceive with some pretty specific uses of Grand Illusion in mind as a backfield unit, but that tends to work best against aggressive armies.

Do tell!
Was it something like redeploying Doomsday Arks to give perfect firing vectors after deployment?
Grand Illusion always struck me as a one time trick: I don't know how likely it would be to succeed against the same opponent twice, or rather, anyone who knows what to expect. If they know what your plans are, it'd be pretty easy to avoid what you've got going... or so I would think.

**Tyran**

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Also, do you have any idea how many bolter shots it takes to bring down T7?

48 hits, assuming BS3, 72 shoots.

**vipoid**

48hits is incorrect as the Conclave C'tan has FNP 5+. Not to mention you'd probably be using LoS to allocate a lot of those to the crypteks (since they'd also get a 4+/5+ against the bolters, and are less valuable to the unit).

But then, why T7? If you were running a conclave, wouldn't you use the 10pt artefact to give it T8? Then you don't have to worry about bolters at all (well, until that cryptek dies).

**Requizen**

vipoid wrote:
48hits is incorrect as the Conclave C'tan has FNP 5+. Not to mention you'd probably be using LoS to allocate a lot of those to the crypteks (since they'd also get a 4+/5+ against the bolters, and are less valuable to the unit).

But then, why T7? If you were running a conclave, wouldn't you use the 10pt artefact to give it T8? Then you don't have to worry about bolters at all (well, until that cryptek dies).

Crypteks are also 4+/4+ as each Cryptek gives +1 to RP.

**vipoid**

Good point.

**Tyran**

The problem, as always, is strength D and stomps.

**Requizen**

Tyran wrote:
The problem, as always, is strength D and stomps.

You can say Eldar. The problem is Eldar.

**Tyran**

Requizen wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The problem, as always, is strength D and stomps.

You can say Eldar. The problem is Eldar.

And Knights. And soon also Tau.

**Requizen**

I don't find single Knights bad (or at least, not as bad as Wraithknights), it's only once you start using more, especially in the Adamantine Lance or bigger formations. One Knight is fairly reasonable to take down. One Wraithknight takes an army built around it to have a shot.

I won't speak to Tau yet, but neither of the new suits seems too OP to deal with. Further rules will be telling though.

**Ffyllotek**

Requizen wrote:
I don't find single Knights bad (or at least, not as bad as Wraithknights), it's only once you start using more, especially in the Adamantine Lance or bigger formations. One Knight is fairly reasonable to take down. One Wraithknight takes an army built around it to have a shot.

I won't speak to Tau yet, but neither of the new suits seems too OP to deal with. Further rules will be telling though.

My overlord just killed a knight in CC... lucky rolls but still...

**Requizen**

Ffyllotek wrote:
Requizen wrote:
I don't find single Knights bad (or at least, not as bad as Wraithknights), it's only once you start using more, especially in the Adamantine Lance or bigger formations. One Knight is fairly reasonable to take down. One Wraithknight takes an army built around it to have a shot.

I won't speak to Tau yet, but neither of the new suits seems too OP to deal with. Further rules will be telling though.

My overlord just killed a knight in CC... lucky rolls but still...

Imperial or Wraith? How many Wounds/HPs did it have left?

**hazal**

How do you kit out your CotBO?

Nightbringer + Cryptek (Shackles) + Cryptek (veil of darkness)?

405 pts

**changemod**

hazal wrote:
How do you kit out your CotBO?

Nightbringer + Cryptek (Shackles) + Cryptek (veil of darkness)?

405 pts

I usually use Orikan or a Cryptek as my HQ anyhow, since Overlords lost their buffing utility... So Cramming the Shackle safely nestled on the other side of the board in a blob of 4+ reanimation isn't tough to arrange.

If your opponent has stuff that can reliably ventilate T8 such as Grav, a solar staff is real good for not being punished for your turn one leap into enemy territory.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.

I've found myself taking three x5 Deathmarks recently. It is one of the only things we can take to help kill Wraithknights (and they aren't necessarily spectacular at it).

**vipoid**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.

Incorrect, Grav goes by the majority save - not the front save.

So, they're actually wounding you on 4s with rerolls.

**Frozocrone**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.

I've found myself taking three x5 Deathmarks recently. It is one of the only things we can take to help kill Wraithknights (and they aren't necessarily spectacular at it).

Flayed Ones would be better for killing Wraithknights.

EDIT: I forget, do Flayed Ones have Rending? Or is it just shred?

**Requizen**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.

I've found myself taking three x5 Deathmarks recently. It is one of the only things we can take to help kill Wraithknights (and they aren't necessarily spectacular at it).

Pretty sure Grav wounds on majority Armor Save. Either way, the C'tan statline has 4+ armor anyway, so it would be wounding on 4s no matter what. Which isn't as bad as 3s, but still, with the amount of shots with rerolls that things like Cents or AdMech Destroyers put out, that can add up quite quickly.

hazal wrote:
How do you kit out your CotBO?

Nightbringer + Cryptek (Shackles) + Cryptek (veil of darkness)?

405 pts

I run:

Nightbringer
Cryptek (Shackle, Veil of Darkness)
Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter)

Solar Staff sits out front and tanks on 4+/4++/4+++ after the first snapshooting turn. Shackle guy hides in back and shunts most shots onto the C'tan, since if he goes, the T7 C'tan doesn't last too long.

An alternate version looks like this:

Nightbringer
Cryptek (Shackle, Veil of Darkness)
Cryptek (Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter)

Doesn't rely on one turn of Solar Staff, instead you have 2+/4++ rerolling 1s and 4+ RP for tanking on the front guy. If the opponent doesn't have lots of AP2, that's T8 2+ rerolling that you can soak shots on .

**Slayer-Fan123**

I could've sworn C'Tan lacked an armor save and just had a 4++ straight up. My bad, everyone, for giving out incorrect information.

I suppose the best you really CAN do is the Solar Staff for protection against them. That's a shame.

**vipoid**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I could've sworn C'Tan lacked an armor save and just had a 4++ straight up.

They might well just have a 4++, but the 2 crypteks in the unit still have 4+ saves - making it the majority for the purposes of Grav wounding.

**skoffs**

Need performance comparison of bare minimum required gear (Shackle & Veil) versus fully decked out crypteks (Shackle, Veil, Solar Staff, Shroud, Thermasite, Phase Shifters) to see whether the extra stuff is really worth the price in the Conclave.

**hazal**

Yea... luckily even at 1500 once you account for standard Decurion toys you have 500 pts to play around with.

Hoping to get a few games in with the CotBO this next week against lists that would usually destroy him (ad mec kill bots, WK, IK etc).

After Veil and Shackles, the Solar Staff seems like a decent buy if just for the 1 turn snap shots. I allows you to deepstrike move nice and close + force snap shots the same turn. That would make all the difference against the temple D spam Eldar can do and other weight of fire approaches.

**vipoid**

hazal wrote:
Yea... luckily even at 1500 once you account for standard Decurion toys you have 500 pts to play around with.

Out of interest, what do you consider the 'standard decurion toys'?

**hazal**

This is my usual starting point to get the Decurion, you can swap out w/e you feel to taste. Its usually the remaining 500 pts from here are for my next formation. Above 1500 its a whole different ballgame.

CCB - Scythe
Warriors x10 - Ark
Warriors x10 - Ark
Immortals x5 - Night Scythe
Tomb Blades x3 - (Sheild/Scopes)
Deathmarks x5

996 pts

**vipoid**

Interesting.

I'm almost the opposite - I generally take the bare minimum decurion and use the points to buy two formations (usually Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest).

Out of interest, how does the CCB work for you? I assume it's your warlord.

**hazal**

I run the CCB right now to get my AV13 saturation up (to go with my Judicator Battalion list)... its taking some practice. Great unit for backfield harassment, transport popping and cleanup. Nearly impervious to shooting, but folds like paper vs a dedicated str 8+ CC unit.

My other HQ I run is Zendekar in a 20man warrior blob with a Dlord (Destroyer cult), similar cost.

10 warriors in a Ghost Ark is just such a value work horse unit. It may not be flashy but it often does work over the course of the game... that and who dosent love warriors using it as an assault transport vs tau.

**luke1705**

skoffs wrote:
Need performance comparison of bare minimum required gear (Shackle & Veil) versus fully decked out crypteks (Shackle, Veil, Solar Staff, Shroud, Thermasite, Phase Shifters) to see whether the extra stuff is really worth the price in the Conclave.

I suspect that this is meta dependent (how much D do you see, although the 3 model unit is probably still fairly resilient to the odd 6). Overall I'm sure that either could work. Honestly the reason why I would run one without the shroud is because my destroyer lord goes with Orikan and likes the 2+ save a lot more (well as much but he tanks shots for my wraiths).

I know I run it somewhat oddly though so I would probably deck them out if I ran a different Necron list. The thing I wonder about mostly is the phase shifters. Very expensive and I might consider skimping out on one or both if points were tight. But the C'Tan kills whatever he touches (or looks at) and solving his durability issue (how weird is that to say?) as well as his mobility issue does open up a lot of doors.

**Requizen**

skoffs wrote:
Need performance comparison of bare minimum required gear (Shackle & Veil) versus fully decked out crypteks (Shackle, Veil, Solar Staff, Shroud, Thermasite, Phase Shifters) to see whether the extra stuff is really worth the price in the Conclave.

Well, you can't have Shroud, Solar Staff, and Veil all in the same unit, since they're Artifacts and you only have 2 characters who can take them. The choice is either Solar Staff or Shroud/Thermasite (I guess you could throw Thermasite in without the Shroud, but it's not necessary).

Shroud/Thermasite makes you tougher against small-arms fire, as anything stronger has a good chance to be AP2 or Rending (Plasma, Melta, Grav, Las, Assault Cannon, etc). However, T8 already makes you immune to most small arms fire, it's really just the S5 Tau spam that you need to look out for. However, it's also good if the meta includes lots of heavy shooting with bad AP values, such as Necrons with lots of Tesla Destructors (if they're still playing 5e lists).

Solar Staff is better against the high S, low AP guns because they're (generally) lower in volume, so forcing Snap Shots is more effective. However, it does nothing to deter the ones that do get through, and after you use it, it's only marginally effective (occasionally you can Blind an important unit). The Solar Staff really shines (haha pun) when you can Veil, Solar, and then Charge the next turn. Once you're stuck in combat, the Conclave will handily tear through most things that aren't GCs/SHWs.

Unfortunately, since the meta nowadays is "bring GCs/SHVs or don't show", the effectiveness is somewhat diminished. You can still use it, but you need to be careful. It can't go toe-to-toe with a WK (frack, what can?), but you can still Veil it to the backline and take out things like Dark Reapers or D-Cannon Artillery, which is really good for the rest of your army (unfortunately, Scat Bikes are still bs).

So, it depends. If the meta has a lot of Wraithknights and Imperial Knights, don't bother bringing it (imo). If the meta is a lot of dakka that's S5 or higher but not Las/Plas/Melta, bring Shroud/Thermasite and laugh. If the meta is a bit more standard but doesn't bring lots of *Knights, Solar is probably the most well rounded.

Literally all C'tan need to be useful is to be able to pick their Powers when they shoot. They would immediately be worth the price, imo.

**hazal**

If C'tan could pick their powers I would always take one (hell if I could reroll if I didnt like it I would be happy).

Yea, Artefacts of the Aeons state 'A model may take one of the following', but the +1T/S collar is from the supplement so it dosent fall within those restrictions eh?

Running the numbers vs a WK... if its a shooty one you might be able to kill it in CC if you avoid the stomp. If its vs the sword/board one, you will may get lucky but you will have to take his D hits vs the crypteks to have a chance at a second round of combat.

**luke1705**

Actually I've found even a bare Nightbringer to be rather effective against Wraithknights. High WS, wounds on a 2+ at AP 2. And of course that "shooting attack". If you roll well, you can definitely take a chunk of wounds off of it with the gaze and THEN either run or shoot as well.
I
He won't get doubled out, has a 4++, so once you get to combat, yeah you'll lose to the sword knight, but so does everything. The shooty knight absolutely does not want to be in combat with you. He charges, gets 5 attacks on the charge. With master-crafted that should be 3 hits on a 4+. Wounds you on a 2, and then you save on a 4+. That's 2.5 wounds, and 1.25 unsaved wounds. In return vs a shooty knight you have:

4 attacks, so 2.66 hits, 2.3 wounds. AP 2 bypasses his armor save so all he has is his 5+ FNP. He takes 1.5 wounds on average. Yes, he has two more wounds, but again you have crypteks as ablative wounds and you likely will have taken a wound or two off of the knight from your gaze + shooting the turn prior (although he would have shot at you in return so its potentially even. I don't want to do more math haha)

EDIT I forgot the stomp attacks. So yeah wraithknights are good but not unbeatable.

You may even tank with a cryptek since you still get RP at a 4+ vs str 10 on a cryptek since there are two in the unit, so he has a 4++ re-rolling 1's, followed by another 4+. Could certainly tank a few wounds in a pinch.

Anyhow point being they're a lot closer, pound-for-pound, than people give them credit for. Is the wraightknight cheaper? Sure. But you can definitely take one on head-to-head without certainly losing. Still fondly remember the time I gazed 3 wounds off of a wraithknight with a lone Nightbringer and sent that sucker running for the hills