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Since the WK, C'tan and Crypteks are all characters you will have to pick who is going to be the target going into it :/

(In regards to Sword/board WK)

Other thing is (and the downside) is that EW dose not stop the D multiple wounds thing, so for every hit the WK lands with a sword he is likely doing 5 wounds on average (which you will save 3ish of them) then the str D stomp. So you are going to have to take the hits vs the crpyteks (which dont get rez vs D) and just for a decent chance to swing back with the night bringer.

So yea... assuming no 6's you can kill it in 2 rounds of combat possibly.

Oh and you can use gaze in CC, its not a shooting attack it just takes place in that phase. (actually can anyone clarify that... as I read it, its not a shooting attack but an ability that occurs during that phase).

At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.

Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice

Gaze of Death still heals wounds too I think.

So the Nightbringer doesn't SUCK against a Wraithknight, but it is still low odds and Wraithknights are terribly under costed.

luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.

Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice

Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Gaze of Death still heals wounds too I think.

So the Nightbringer doesn't SUCK against a Wraithknight, but it is still low odds and Wraithknights are terribly under costed.

Comparing near anything to a Wraithknight ends badly. Alas, I've cried my tears over it previously.

On average, the WK wins. But, if can charge one who has already been wounded down a bit, the Nightbringer has a good chance of finishing it off. Then again, so do things like Orikanstar or Wraiths with Shred from the Harvest. So, balance that out as you will.

That would assume gaze targeting like a shooting/witchfire ability. Can you cast maledictions vs targets in CC?

 hazal wrote:
That would assume gaze targeting like a shooting/witchfire ability. Can you cast maledictions vs targets in CC?

Yes, you can cast Maledictions against any unit in range, regardless of whether or not they're in combat.

Gaze literally just says "...target one non-vehicle enemy unit within 12" to which it has line of sight.". It's not a shooting attack, as Witchfires are described, it has it's own targeting wording.

Gearing up for a tourney next summer which imposed a super strict composition score.

Troops: past 650 -1, additional -1 for every 100 above
Everything other category: past 250 -1, additional -1 for every 100 above.

The difference between a Nightbringer + conclave and Transcendent + conclave is 15 pts cheaper for the trancendent (no VoD) and a 1 point better comp score.

But gaze of death is good... take the 1 comp hit with Nightbringer or find a way to may the T'can work?

Requizen wrote:

luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.

Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice

Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.

Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).

Is -1 comp score good or bad?

I would be 18/20.... aint bad.... otherwise would be 19/20.

I guess the more important note is that given my point restrictions the Nightbringer wouldent have the solar staff but the Transcendent C'tan could afford it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.

Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice

Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.

Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).

I think the tricky part here is those rules of targeting is 'to shoot at', the Gaze of Death is not a shooting attack. Totally agreeing that the fact it takes place in the shooting phase causes the issue here.

So it comes down to, is Gaze of Death a shooting attack?

 hazal wrote:
I would be 18/20.... aint bad.... otherwise would be 19/20.

I guess the more important note is that given my point restrictions the Nightbringer wouldent have the solar staff but the Transcendent C'tan could afford it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.

Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice

Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.

Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).

I think the tricky part here is those rules of targeting is 'to shoot at', the Gaze of Death is not a shooting attack. Totally agreeing that the fact it takes place in the shooting phase causes the issue here.

So it comes down to, is Gaze of Death a shooting attack?

It is not. It is an ability that happens in the Shooting Phase to an enemy unit within 12" of the Nightbringer. It's more akin to a Malediction than anything else.

 luke1705 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.

Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice

Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.

Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).

You're okay to use it into combat as it is not a shooting attack (which may not be fired into combat) . The fact that it targets something, does not make it a shooting attack regardless of where targeting is covered in the BRB. If that were the case, then Anrakyrs "mind in the machine" , imperial guard "orders" and maledictions would all be shooting attacks , because they require targetting.

Gaze of death is one of the most ironclad rules in the game partly due to it's simplicity.

Are they within 12"?
Are they within LoS?
gaze away.

Once those 2 criteria are met, you are free to go, as it is it's own ability with no other restrictions.

Incoming wall of text:

I think I'm going to try out a shooting Deathstar with Necrons. We don't really have any units that fit the bill (at least none that are as shoot-happy as Cents or the like), but Forge World provides an option in Sentry Pylons. An expensive, but powerful option. Attempt 1:

Necron CAD

Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Anrakyr the Traveler
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

795/1850

Death Ray Sentry Pylons are Heavy, so Anrakyr is brought to give them Relentless so you can move (or teleport) and shoot. They autohit anything within 27" (and on average have a range of 34.5") and are S10 AP1 rerolling 1s to wound with the Destroyer Lord. The DLord also gives them a teleport so you can Alpha Strike with them and hopefully rip something to shreds. Anrakyr also has a Tachyon Arrow (S10 AP1 as well), which with his BS5 is hitting and wounding on 2s, rerolling thanks to the DLord. As an Alpha Strike, that's 7+ S10 AP1 attacks that are basically auto-hits and auto-wounds. From there, it's a T7 unit with 3+ armor all around and RP on the two ICs.

I would wonder how this stacks up to just the Destroyer Cult in terms of effective shooting. S10 AP1 and autohits (with no Jink allowed and ignoring Invis) is pretty great, but as generalist shooting the DCult might have the edge. However, against Wraithknights (which I continue to hate), 6 (7 with Anrakyr's Arrow) auto-hits and -wounds is basically better than anything we have otherwise against them.

Not bad. But, we can make it better.

Necron CAD

Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)

Necron Royal Court Formation
Anrakyr the Traveler
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron

1020/1850

Wow, that's expensive! But, for the extra 225 points, you get 4+ RP, another teleport, 5++ against all shooting, and the ever powerful Solar Staff. Not to mention Obyron's amazing Assault potential, so now you have 3 Warscythes with good WS and PE(E!) against anything that tries to assault it. And both teleports can be used to jump out of combat if you get tied up.

For comparison, the big shooting deathstar that most people know and love/hate is Centstar. A Centstar of Draigo/ML3 GK Libby/Tigirius/3 Grav Cents with Omniscope is 795 (same as base Sentrystar) or more if you add in Coteaz (you should), more Cents, or have a Librarian Council with Tiggy.

While Grav is pretty scary and there are more shots/hits on average even if you don't get Divination, autohitting with S10 AP1 is pretty crazy and is much more effective against vehicles (aka Knights). The two teleports of Sentrystar is less than always having Gate, but is more reliable since it's not a Psychic Power. One turn of Invis also isn't as good as having the Power, but automatically goes off and can't be denied as well (though with Librarian Conclave it might as well auto-cast).

How does one build a list around this expensive 'star? Well, as expected, Wraiths are always good. Once you get the mandatory 2 units of minimum camping Immortals, you can either fit 15 Wraiths with Whip Coils, or 12 with Coils and the Spyder/Scarabs necessary for the Canoptek Harvest. Fast Assault units running up and a teleporting Deathstar could be pretty terrifying for lots of armies. I guess the question would be is it better to have more Wraiths, or less but some of them are stronger? Probably the latter, as you're also gaining more units for objective scoring and Scarabs/Spyders aren't too bad anyway:



Possibly could split up the Wraiths into 3 units somehow for more spread, but that's nitpicks for later. Alternatively, you could just say "MORE GUN" and go full Destroyer:



So, basically no Assault defense aside from the Warscythes in the 'Star, but a purely insane amount of shooting. 60 points left over to kit out the stock Lord, or to add more Troops, etc. But, if there's something this list wants dead, the Sentrystar and the Cult are going to make sure it ends up that way in a very short amount of time.

There's probably slightly more balanced ways to make a list out of this, but I think one of these two would do pretty well overall. Sentry Pylons are interesting - expensive, but tough and very, very killy. Even if you don't make a Deathstar out of them, I think maybe they're one of the few Necron FW units worth considering.

Thoughts?

Out of interest, has anyone tried an army of basically nothing but Warriors?

Basically the classic Silver Tide.

Silver tide is possible, but you need the decurion to give them the special rules that make it work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is that whitedwarf formation that gives you a monolith and like a 100 warriors.

 hazal wrote:
Silver tide is possible, but you need the decurion to give them the special rules that make it work.

Decurion definitely helps, 4+ RP/MTC/Relentless makes them quite powerful for basic troops. Up to 8 units of Warriors with Ghost Arks is good. CCB as the Overlord can give out his reroll bubble, or stick Zahndrekh in there to switch to reroll 1s to hit in shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is that whitedwarf formation that gives you a monolith and like a 100 warriors.

The formation you're talking about is the Mephrit Dyanasty Resurgence Decurion and it's pretty great. It's a Monolith, 2 units of Warriors, and 2 units of Immortals. It lets the Monolith bring back d6 Warriros per turn and d3 Immortals, like a bigger better Ghost Ark.

Max out the Warriors, give them each a Ghost Ark, and then bring in a Royal Court formation. Overlord and Lord with Res Orb, 2 Crypteks with Chronometrons. Now, you have 40 Warriors with 4+/5++/4+++, one time rerolls on RP, and get back anywhere between 1 and 9 per turn. Not bad, not bad.

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, has anyone tried an army of basically nothing but Warriors?

Basically the classic Silver Tide.

Check out the Masters of the Forge podcast. Our good friend Loopy, who is one of the hosts of the show, created a silvertide list with over 100 warriors. He has documented not only his models but his experiences on the podcast and their facebook.

I have ran 50, but that is hardly a true silvertide list.

I ran 50 warriors and 2 arks vs orks. There's just not the firepower anyone else can bring to effectively kill 50 warriors. At 5+ T4 you need eight hits to kill. That's about fifty million orks or something for a single wound.

Yea he talked about how getting swept was the bane of his existence though.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Yea he talked about how getting swept was the bane of his existence though.

armies that can reduce your LD and sweep would have a field day, but there's most a counter to anything would be hilarious against other lists.

This is why Nemesor is in my Silver Tide lists, he starts with fearless and can select it again in the personal traits.

 hazal wrote:
This is why Nemesor is in my Silver Tide lists, he starts with fearless and can select it again in the personal traits.

Or the Necron traits.

Wait, so Zahndrek and attached unit can potentially have Fearless three separate times over the course of one game?

Care to fill us in on exactly what the other two traits were? (after his initial one).
And what other ways do we have to grant Fearless to our sweep-vulnerable guys?

 skoffs wrote:
Wait, so Zahndrek and attached unit can potentially have Fearless three separate times over the course of one game?

Care to fill us in on exactly what the other two traits were? (after his initial one).

I can't remember the names, but there's the 'Fearless and IWND' trait from the Personal table in the main rulebook, and then there's the Zealot trait from the Necron book that he starts with.

 skoffs wrote:

And what other ways do we have to grant Fearless to our sweep-vulnerable guys?

As far as I'm aware, we don't have any other ways - all we can do is try to get lucky with warlord traits.

Other than that, the best we can do is either reroll failed Ld tests (with the warlord trait and/or CCB command bubble), or charge a Fearless unit into the combat (so that, even if the non-fearless guys run, they can't be swept).

Ah, so it's only two traits. Alright.

But yes, gives min units of Scarabs a job if you take Harvests but aren't planning on farming: babysit the sweep vulnerable units from a safe distance (your Warrior blob gets charged? No problem, get those bugger's hiding in the ruin nearby to jump into combat to ensure the troops don't get trampled when they run away)

Is the old silver tide formation off 100+ warriors still usable? Samy with any of the formations in the demos book?

Random question, guys - what are your experiences with non-melee Necrons in combat?

(By non-melee I mean stuff like Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks etc.)

 vipoid wrote:
Random question, guys - what are your experiences with non-melee Necrons in combat?

(By non-melee I mean stuff like Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks etc.)

Blobs of Warriors can be a force to be reckoned with if in a Decurion (thanks to Relentless: ~40 shots, followed up by ~40 attacks... that's nothing to laugh about, particularly if there's someone holding a Warscythe embedded in their unit).
Immortals and Deathmarks, not so much.
Deathmarks are disposable after their first turn on the table (normally send them off to babysit objectives and take potshots at things for the rest of the game).
Immortals are similar (objective baby sitters good for taking potshots at things).
Though, I guess, with their 3+ saves combined with 4+ Res, they are still incredibly resilient, so if you NEEDED to get them into combat with something that wasn't a combat specialist unit... it might work out (say if you wanted to tie up a shooting unit so it couldn't harass the rest of your forces and you had nothing else better near by).
Destroyers... if you're getting into combat with the best shooters in the codex, you're doing it wrong.

It still a myth Necrons are easily swept in combat. Our lowly Warrior in a Decurion has a 75% chance to ignore a wound already Inflicted. Compare to a Tactical Marine, who needs 4's to hit and wound, and I'm pretty sure they only have less than a 10% chance.

I'm VERY aggressive with that knowledge and I actually regularly charge my Warriors into melee against things I know they'll finish off that turn or during the opponent's turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It still a myth Necrons are easily swept in combat. Our lowly Warrior in a Decurion has a 75% chance to ignore a wound already Inflicted. Compare to a Tactical Marine, who needs 4's to hit and wound, and I'm pretty sure they only have less than a 10% chance.

They are easily swept by melee units. But they are good against non-melee units.