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I know the topic has already come up before in this thread some pages back, but
Just how effective are Harvest Beamer Wraiths at being killy?
12" S4 AP2 guns that can hurt(/kill) anything on a 6. Should be good, right?
They move fast, so can get in position to use them pretty easily (though, you WILL want to attach a Destroyer Lord for PE, so he may slow them down by a few inches if you roll low for his assault phase jump).
Plus, you know, they're Wraiths, so they'll be able to jump right in to whatever they were shooting at to finish it off (and with PE on their rending, that's no joke, especially with the attached D-Lord's Warscythe thrown into the mix).

6x Harvest Wraiths (Beamers) & 1x D.Lord (Warscythe)
6x S4 AP2 shots (instant wound/kill on a 6, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
+
24x S6 hits (rending, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
+
4x S7 AP2 hits (armorbane, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
=
one very mutilated enemy unit

No?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I can't recall, do any of these guys get Hammer Of Wrath?)

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I personally loathe the idea of fielding Tau with necrons lol.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

I also concur.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
I know the topic has already come up before in this thread some pages back, but
Just how effective are Harvest Beamer Wraiths at being killy?
12" S4 AP2 guns that can hurt(/kill) anything on a 6. Should be good, right?
They move fast, so can get in position to use them pretty easily (though, you WILL want to attach a Destroyer Lord for PE, so he may slow them down by a few inches if you roll low for his assault phase jump).
Plus, you know, they're Wraiths, so they'll be able to jump right in to whatever they were shooting at to finish it off (and with PE on their rending, that's no joke, especially with the attached D-Lord's Warscythe thrown into the mix).

6x Harvest Wraiths (Beamers) & 1x D.Lord (Warscythe)
6x S4 AP2 shots (instant wound/kill on a 6, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
+
24x S6 hits (rending, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
+
4x S7 AP2 hits (armorbane, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
=
one very mutilated enemy unit

No?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I can't recall, do any of these guys get Hammer Of Wrath?)

The Beamers are nice in my opinion, but they're very gimmicky. I was able to one shot a Wraithknight from the old codex, but it was merely because of luck. I would rely on them to do much, but I'd still take them for the chance at awesomeness.

Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

I have tried them on multiple occasions and disagree. For more than triple the points of a Whip Coil, you get a gun that works sometimes, on an Assault unit.

Wraiths are for combat. Putting guns on them when you can have a bonus to Assault instead is counter-productive. Is there that chance that you can roll a 6 and instagib a Dreadknight of Hive Tyrant? Sure. But fishing for 6s on a single shot gun has never been ideal, effects like that are best done en masse, hopefully with some sort of reroll. Oh, sure, you can stick a DLord onto them and get a minor reroll.

On average with a DLord in the unit, that's a 90.7% chance to get a single 6 auto pen/ID out of 6 shots. And doesn't ignore Cover or Invulns, so even lower on any target worth shooting it at.

Wraiths are Assault units best used for ripping apart MSU targets or tying up scary things as best they can. Once they get into Assault or targeted down (which they will be), those guns that increase their points by 25% are useless. Against MSU, blobs, cover campers with Shroud and/or Stealth, Invuln-heavy units (like Storm Shields) or Invisibility, those guns are really wasted points. Whip Coils are cheaper by a large margin and will always be useful as long as you reach combat at some point in the game. Which you will, thanks to 12" move Beasts that ignore all Terrain (including Impassable) and have Fleet.

Basically you're killing 60 points on the hope that:
a) your opponent will have something big and scary that you want to instagib
b) it won't be Invisible, behind cover, have ablative bodyguard wounds, or have some sort of reliable Invuln save
c) you roll slightly higher than average and kill it in one shot

That's a lot of points for a relatively small hope. The thing they're better used for isn't hoping for that chance that you'll instagib a big expensive target, but rather for hunting down 2+ save units that don't rely on cover, like Terminators. But TEQs that don't use Invis or Storm Shields aren't "in the meta", so that's not really a good reason to bring them.

I mean, if you have 60 points left over with your Harvest list and think it's more valuable than 3 Scarab bases or a handful more Troops/upgrades and don't think you need Whip Coils, then go for it. But it's become a very hard sell for me.

Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.

So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.

So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)

Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.

col_impact wrote:
Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat.

Odd, that's usually exactly what I want out of my Wraiths.

col_impact wrote:
Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.

So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.

So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)

Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.

That doesn't make much sense. The gun and the Wraith's profile don't really compliment each other in that manner.

-The gun you want to use to ID something big. But if the guns don't work, your AP- Rending attacks probably aren't going to drop it in any sort of quick manner (Dreadknights, WKs, etc).
-The things that Wraiths are good at killing are mid-sized units that don't have too high of saves, or vehicles that they can kill with their massed attacks. Neither of which you need 60 points of T-Beamers to kill.
-The things that Wraiths are good at tying up are hard-to-kill units like Screamerstar or other Deathstars with no H&R. Generally these things have good enough Invuln or Cover saves that AP2 doesn't matter.

There really isn't a unit I can find that you would both want to shoot the "maybe ID" guns at and also think you could kill with Wraiths in 1-2 rounds of combat. Either the guns are overkill because the Wraiths would kill the unit anyway, or if it's something that needs the ID gun, Wraiths probably can't kill it before their next shooting phase.

You can't make Wraiths a specialist shooting unit and an Assault unit. It doesn't really work, in any army even.

Requizen wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.

So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.

So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)

Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.

That doesn't make much sense. The gun and the Wraith's profile don't really compliment each other in that manner.

-The gun you want to use to ID something big. But if the guns don't work, your AP- Rending attacks probably aren't going to drop it in any sort of quick manner (Dreadknights, WKs, etc).
-The things that Wraiths are good at killing are mid-sized units that don't have too high of saves, or vehicles that they can kill with their massed attacks. Neither of which you need 60 points of T-Beamers to kill.
-The things that Wraiths are good at tying up are hard-to-kill units like Screamerstar or other Deathstars with no H&R. Generally these things have good enough Invuln or Cover saves that AP2 doesn't matter.

There really isn't a unit I can find that you would both want to shoot the "maybe ID" guns at and also think you could kill with Wraiths in 1-2 rounds of combat. Either the guns are overkill because the Wraiths would kill the unit anyway, or if it's something that needs the ID gun, Wraiths probably can't kill it before their next shooting phase.

You can't make Wraiths a specialist shooting unit and an Assault unit. It doesn't really work, in any army even.

You just have to support the Beamer Wraiths, which is different than how you normally play wraiths. Whatever you send it after will need to be something that has been softened up to the point where the assault delivers the finishing blow in one turn. The WK or DK or IK will have to have been pelted by supporting mobile shooty units so the beamer wraiths don't get stuck in CC when it swoops in for the assault. And yes throwing this unit at a super-durable Deathstar is points wasted so you will need something in your army to take the role of tarpitter (another unit of wraiths).

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.

If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.

I read somewhere else that European Necron tournament players have been using Tomb Blades and Praetorians to great success lately, just Decurion MSU type things. I'd like to try it, unfortunately I don't own any Praetorians yet.

Where did you read that?

I've seen Tomb Blades being used in tournaments over here since they're good, but I've not seen people use Praetorians. Shame, as they're theoretically amazing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Where did you read that?

I've seen Tomb Blades being used in tournaments over here since they're good, but I've not seen people use Praetorians. Shame, as they're theoretically amazing.

Well, maybe not great success, hyperbole on my part. Someone on Frontline said that they were "all the rage" in Europe, which I can see being relatively true.

Providing a source would still be nice!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Providing a source would still be nice!

A guy posted about it here.

I actually want to try something similar. If you're just going MSU Decurion and want to get mobility, you can do a lot worse than min Praetorian units. Only issue is that the Stalker will need to be closely guarded to prevent immediate death.

Looking at returning to the hobby after taking a break just before 7th started. Because of the prices in NZ will be building an army from second hand mostly and currently have a good deal to pick up some crons including the current dex and 7th ed rulebook.

Played a lot in 6th and did well with gk. Will mostly be going to tournies, not to win but I find them a great time.

I love crons because almost everything in the book seems like it can be usable, which is not the case for most armies. So how competitive are they now? Last I remember of them was the whole flying circus thing that dominated before taudar came along.

 tuiman wrote:

I love crons because almost everything in the book seems like it can be usable, which is not the case for most armies. So how competitive are they now? Last I remember of them was the whole flying circus thing that dominated before taudar came along.

That is the very reason I think the Necron Codex is the most well balanced, and overall best codex GW has released in a long time. Everything is usable, and it looks like (for the most part) they actually listened to peoples complaints about what was OP or what wasn't good.

That being said, Necrons are kings of Casual, as my group calls them. If you're playing fluffy lists, Necrons will most likely win, hands down. Competitively, they can still compete, but only just, in my opinion. Destroyers and Wraiths are your go-to units if you're running competitive now.

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.

If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.

Well, yes, but Praets lack that sweet sweet inv save Wraiths are blessed with.
With that alone it should make them more survivable.

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.

If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.

Well, yes, but Praets lack that sweet sweet inv save Wraiths are blessed with.
With that alone it should make them more survivable.

Sure, but maybe not as much as you'd think. For less than the price of 6 Beamer Wraiths, you can get 10 Praetorians. It's about even when you consider the taxes on their formations, so let's compare.

Against AP4 or worse weaponry, they're the same. Praets in the formation have MTC, so they should basically always have a cover save. They also always have RP, even against T1 alpha strikes, and don't rely on a single model surviving to keep it. Against S10 or otherwise ID shooting, Wraiths are actually kinda worse because W2 goes away.

In a straight up comparison, Wraiths are indeed harder to take down. But Praetorians aren't exactly made out of paper mache either. Those 10 Praetorians also get more shots, at a higher Strength, and are two units that can move around independently rather than clumped up.

While Wraiths are probably the better Assault choice (as more sticking power in Assault is generally better), if you want to compare 12" AP2 guns, I don't think I'd pick Wraiths over Praetorians.

Yea praetorians still have the left over stigma of that last book. They really are amazing, that being said, take wraiths and praetorians but give the wraiths whip coils, odds are your opponents underestimate praets and over estimate wraiths as well meaning they will waste shots on the wraiths.

Granted, I mostly agree with the above, but when against the things Necrons tend to struggle with (MCs/GCs/Knights/etc), how would Harvest Beamer Wraiths compare versus the rest of our contenders?

IDK it just seems like a poor investment most of the time, even if you face those things it isn't guaranteed to actually achieve much. I figure wraiths are best cheaper and used to tarpit such things while you get your warscythe lich guard in position to waste them.

 skoffs wrote:
Granted, I mostly agree with the above, but when against the things Necrons tend to struggle with (MCs/GCs/Knights/etc), how would Harvest Beamer Wraiths compare versus the rest of our contenders?

Look at my math above. Even with a DLord, you're not looking at a statistically likely chance to get a single 6 out of a full unit. And that's before Invulns or Cover, which most of those MCs/GCs/SHVs that give us trouble have.

If you want to kit your list out to deal with them, use the DCult and have stock Wraiths to tie them up/chip away instead. We don't have the capability to drop a hard target in one go like Eldar or Imperials have.

That 90% ain't bad when you think about it. A Wraithknight outside of cover takes D3 wounds before the charge, a Dreadknight that failed Sanctuary will die 60% of the time, etc. I like those chances VERY much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can give the Wraiths Shred. That should make the odds much better though I haven't done the math on it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That 90% ain't bad when you think about it. A Wraithknight outside of cover takes D3 wounds before the charge, a Dreadknight that failed Sanctuary will die 60% of the time, etc. I like those chances VERY much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can give the Wraiths Shred. That should make the odds much better though I haven't done the math on it.

Wraithknights can take Invuln saves, and in my experience generally do. Otherwise, if they're just taking the D guns, they're going to spend the first turn or two outside of the Wraiths' range shooting with much better weaponry. I mean yeah, you might instagib that Dreadknight, but again, you're paying an extra 60 points and the opponent might not even have a suitable target in their list anyway. I mean, if you wanna use them, then go for it, I'm just saying that I think overall you could spend those points on something else and be better off.

Also Shred wouldn't affect the guns. 'S nice if you're fighting a GC/MC, though.

To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies

Xafilah wrote:
To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies

Wraiths should be really powerful in that sort of environment, with their ability to move through walls. Maybe even too powerful.

 MLKTH wrote:

Xafilah wrote:
To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies

Wraiths should be really powerful in that sort of environment, with their ability to move through walls. Maybe even too powerful.

Praets and destroyers would also do well.

Destroyers could do a lot of jump/shoot/jump and their generally shorter ranged weapons would not be a disadvantage in an urban environment.

Also, for HQ. Grab Zhandrekh and pick up the ruins warlord trait for that sweet 3+ cover save.

Zimko wrote:

 MLKTH wrote:

Xafilah wrote:
To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies

Wraiths should be really powerful in that sort of environment, with their ability to move through walls. Maybe even too powerful.

Praets and destroyers would also do well.

Destroyers could do a lot of jump/shoot/jump and their generally shorter ranged weapons would not be a disadvantage in an urban environment.

Also, for HQ. Grab Zhandrekh and pick up the ruins warlord trait for that sweet 3+ cover save.

Thanks for the help guys! Also, I was thinking melta stalkers, because the ubiquitous cover should allow them to get real close for that sweet 2 shot of doom. Plus heavy flamer bonus

Xafilah wrote:


Thanks for the help guys! Also, I was thinking melta stalkers, because the ubiquitous cover should allow them to get real close for that sweet 2 shot of doom. Plus heavy flamer bonus

Yeah stalkers might do pretty well in that. If you're going to grab a stalker then you might as well take the judicator formation since praets are also going to do well.