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 Massaen wrote:
I am warming to the idea of the Judicator battalion with 2x10 praetorians and the single (or maybe 2) stalkers with gauss

Would highly recommend taking Night Scythes if going Judicator Battalion, as they benefit from the reroll to shooting for wounding/armor pen from the Stalker that is granted to all models in the formation.
(S7 rerolling penetrating rolls is no joke.)

 skoffs wrote:

Zimko wrote:
a Decurion with minimum sized Reclamation Legion with Zhandrekh as the Overlord

Kinda seems like a waste to take Zahndrekh in a min sized Decurion. What does he even attach to? Wouldn't you normally want to throw him in with something where his abilities would make a major difference?

He mainly provides reserves manipulation and Fearless when needed. He's also a brick of an HQ that is hard for the opponent to kill for Slay the Warlord. The games I've played with this list, he will usually starts with a unit of Warriors until the bodies are depleted or they're about to get caught in assault. Then I'll move him to a unit of Destroyers to provide Fearless or keep him with the warriors if the unit charging doesn't have anything capable of one-shotting Zhandrekh. Giving the Warriors fearless makes them one heck of a tarpit unit. You also have the option of Deep Striking all the Destroyers and the Praetorians, so having Zhandrekh there for reserves manipulation is handy to support that tactic.

He's just a flexible and resilient HQ and a good value for 150 pts.

 Massaen wrote:

Has anyone got any experience with the obelisk?

Yes.

It isn't competitive, but it's one of the very few Super Heavies I'm okay with fielding/fighting against in casual games. It's cool, fun to play, and doesn't spit out High Strength/low AP or D weapons, which means people are okay with playing it.

I wouldn't take it to a tournament, though.

Shifting gears to the new retribution phalanx datasheet, how is this no just the most broken rule in the game with warriors and scarabs automatically come back (no caveats including times used) when killed so long as the overlord is alive. 0.o

 buddha wrote:
Shifting gears to the new retribution phalanx datasheet, how is this no just the most broken rule in the game with warriors and scarabs automatically come back (no caveats including times used) when killed so long as the overlord is alive. 0.o

Where are the rules for this? What do you mean by 'come back'?

Just read the rules someone posted for it.

My god...

Details......

Fragile wrote:
Details......

It's the contents of the new box - 1 Overlord, 1 unit of Warriors, 1 Stalker (unit? Dunno until we see the actual formation). When the Warriors die, if the Overlord is still alive, they get to come back near him.

I don't think it's uber-broken for a number of reasons:

1) An Overlord isn't all that hard to kill if you want it dead, except maybe if you blob him in Lychguard or Wraiths

2) An unkillable unit is cute, but in the end, what are they? Warriors without ObSec, without 4+ RP, without any other bonus like Relentless or whatever. Pretty good small-arms weaponry, but really, they don't scare anything tougher than a Marine.

Is it funny? Sure. It's probably extremely annoying in small scale games, but at 1500+, I feel like it's nothing special. Just either kill the Overlord and/or ignore the Warriors. Call it a day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EBWOP: Oh, it affects the Scarabs too? That's... that's pretty freaking good. Not, you know, OP, but pretty freaking good.

I don't see anything in that rule that restricts the respawned units from charging the turn they come back. So full units of Scarabs could be really annoying and a very effective tarpit/distraction.

Yep, since it's not reserves there's technically nothing stopping it. I mean, they're still only Scarabs, so not exactly killing machines, but still not bad.

Put Overlord in Orikanstar, march up field. Send Scarabs forward as a screen, they die, come back. Repeat until both units surround and kill target of your choice.

I'm agreeing that placing the overlord in a decurion deathstar is safest then you can really abuse the rule by maxing out the warriors and dare your opponent to kill them. Since deathstars usually want to be upfield is could act as a slingshot to bring them in.

Yeap, this is actually not all that bad.

Also, 20 Warriors will tarpit even a Wraithknight for a few turns, and then you can just respawn and repeat. The wound blob is real.

If the unit of 3 scarabs is grown by spyders to a unit of 9 scarabs, does the unit of scarabs come back as 3 or 9?

I would say following the RAW the unit of scarabs comes back as a unit of 9 scarabs. You could then boost the size of the unit again with the spyders.


Also, since only one scarab model needs to be placed within 3" of the Overlord, you can congo-line the rest of the scarabs towards the enemy unit you want to charge.

col_impact wrote:
If the unit of 3 scarabs is grown by spyders to a unit of 9 scarabs, does the unit of scarabs come back as 3 or 9?

I would say following the RAW the unit of scarabs comes back as a unit of 9 scarabs.

So you're saying the unit should come back as the size it was before it died, not the size it is as listed in the army list/when first deployed?
By that reasoning, if the Warrior unit gets whittled down to 2 in one turn, then gets wiped out in the next turn, it would only come back as a unit of 2, because that's how big it was before it was wiped out.

I'd assume the intention here is similar to the IG "Send In The Next Wave" rule: you get the same unit you started with back.
But, being the case, STARTING the Scarabs at 9, then having 9 Spyders add to them, then sending them off somewhere wouldn't be too bad. If you keep the Overlord near the Spyders you never have to worry about about running out of Scarabs. They become completely disposable.
If anything, this formation has the most potential with a Scarab Farm list, but instead of just focusing on keeping one Scarab unit alive, you can just mass produce them (say, with multiple retribution phalanxes for constant Scarab creation).

Agreed, the rule would have the original unit come back, not any extra's spawned along the way. Just start with 9.

The Spyders add to the unit size of the scarabs.

Ohhhhhh gak.
Guys, I just realized something:

So the Warrior unit comes back if wiped out, right?
Well, what happens if those Warriors had a Ghost Ark?
Does their Ghost Ark come back as well? (does it count as part of "their unit"?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
The Spyders add to the unit size of the scarabs.

Spoiler:

Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special
rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that
is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit – this can
take the unit beyond its starting size, but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder.

Col, come on, man, you do this every time. You know that's not how it works and you try to find some sort of loophole to break the thing that no one agrees with.
In this case it's really stretching it.
You get the unit you started with back, not the unit at the size you were able to get it up to at max.
Otherwise you'd have situations where someone could argue,
"Well, I might have started with 3, but by turn three it was 21. Yes, by turn four it was back down to 2 after the Manticores got through with them and then they died right after that when they got charged, but at one point the unit was up to 21, which means now that they're dead I get those 21 back... Why are you packing up your models? Does this mean you concede?! Yes! I win again!"

Let's just stick with sorting out how it works RAW.

 skoffs wrote:
Ohhhhhh gak.
Guys, I just realized something:

So the Warrior unit comes back if wiped out, right?
Well, what happens if those Warriors had a Ghost Ark?
Does their Ghost Ark come back as well? (does it count as part of "their unit"?)

I believe the FAQ states that dedicated transport is never part of the unit its attached to, so I don't think Ghost Ark is coming back.

Just launching 9 infinitely respawning Scarab Swarms into things is actually fairly awesome though. Throw them at things you want to tie up, force your opponent to keep fighting them in melee. Sure you lose them over and over again, but they're still mean ankle biters that never go away as long as the Overlord is up.

Col,

Can you explain why you get to pick the maximum unit size that it ever was? Why not 8? 4? 3? 1? Adding more scarabs can take the unit beyond its starting size, yes. But that doesn't change what the unit was. If you had a unit of 3 scarabs, you get 3 back when they respawn. The rule you quoted does not change this - it only allows you to make a larger unit after it is purchased.

Skoffs,

Unfortunately no. The transport is a different unit than the Warriors. It does count as a unit from the formation, which is why the benefits of the judicator battalion work the way that they do - because it specifies units from the formation. This specifies units of warriors from the formation. A dedicated transport is not a unit of warriors. If it was, that would be broken. Gauss wall for days, night scythes for days. They died? WHO CARES? But sadly we still do have to care.

 luke1705 wrote:
Col,

Can you explain why you get to pick the maximum unit size that it ever was? Why not 8? 4? 3? 1? Adding more scarabs can take the unit beyond its starting size, yes. But that doesn't change what the unit was. If you had a unit of 3 scarabs, you get 3 back when they respawn. The rule you quoted does not change this - it only allows you to make a larger unit after it is purchased.

When you add Scarabs via Spyder beyond the unit's starting size it changes what the unit is. A unit 3 grown into a unit of 9 scarabs is not a unit of 3+6 added on by Spyders. The unit itself changes to be a unit of 9.

 luke1705 wrote:
Unfortunately no. The transport is a different unit than the Warriors. It does count as a unit from the formation, which is why the benefits of the judicator battalion work the way that they do - because it specifies units from the formation. This specifies units of warriors from the formation. A dedicated transport is not a unit of warriors. If it was, that would be broken. Gauss wall for days, night scythes for days. They died? WHO CARES? But sadly we still do have to care.

Okay, makes complete sense. Just wanted to get that cleared up before we went any further.
But still, units of 9x Scarabs being thrown around without having to worry about what happens to them is definitely pretty cool. You wouldn't even really need Spyders to increase their size, you just keep launching them at things (... 'course, all your opponent has to do is whittle them down to 2 and then try not to kill them and you'll kinda be stuck. Which is where having a second formation would come in handy. Time to start writing Scarab Retribution Pharm list, me thinks).

col: can you pls explain why adding a model to the unit is different than removing one? Because a 9base scara unit that lost 8 is not a unit of 9 models nor is it a unit of 9-8units its a unit of 1model. Exactly the same as a unit of 10 models that did get one new base is a unit of 10. In your list there is still 9 written as unite size.

To dwell a bit more into the rule:
The points that are not well defined (at lest to me) are:
- "unit" - see above for the amount of models used, whats with Ic that joined the unit?
- "wiped out" - this might be nitpicking but is "removed from play" = "wiped out"?
- "set up" - so we can just put every single model where we want as long as the unit is in coherency and at least one model is within 3'' to the overlord? What if the Overlord is in the center of a close combad blob with more than 3'' radius?


unit: my intuition says it has to be the unit like described in your list. Every argument that says its more models than at the start of the game has to be made in a way where its not aplicable for less models but only for more which is imo not possible.

set up i fear that it might be even possible to set the unit up without it beeing in coherency! Reading through the BRB parts i thought would be relevant i didnt even found why a unit has to be in coherency when placed while deploying. I guess ill open a coherency thread in YMDC. If we can set up the unit out of coherency that would break any mealstorm mission. Just let your warriors get killed, set them up one to the side of the overlord and one close to any objective thats not held by obsec units. Or give cover saves to your whole army. This would be the most broken gak... Luckily we have a responsible community that rules such BS out asap. But even placed in coherency a conga line of 9 scarabs or 10-20 warriors can mess up any non antigrav/jump army.

Guys, seriously, let's not start this gak here. The last thing we want is another six page rules lawyering rant like the crap that happened when somebody tried to convince everyone that Canoptek Harvests can take 3 Spyders in them instead of 1.

Leave it in YMDC.
Please.

col_impact wrote:
The Spyders add to the unit size of the scarabs.

Spoiler:

Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special
rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that
is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit this can
take the unit beyond its starting size– , but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder.

Yes, that is permission to go beyond its starting size. That starting size would be the size that it would return as. The rule you cited has no bearing anything.

... please leave it in YMDC?

If this turns into another freaking Canoptek Harvest....

To change the subject (we can come back to the tactitcal impact of this formation when YMDC came to a consens on what its actually does):

How strong can a Necron CAD + Allied Detachment be? The real tournament strenght of the space robots comes from the Decurion, unlike to many cheesy power builds, that work well even in the CAD+1 setting. I'm attending a tournament soon(tm) with that restriction and liked to get som idears what you guys think would be competitive - ooutside of "spam wraith". I will bring some of them for shure but i 18 of them is not my cup of tea. I was thinking of Orikanstar + some wraith, and the rest either av13 heavy or without any vehicle at all.

Some high level tournament players are still running CAD-based lists (although usually with a formation or two), because the troop-tax is so much higher in decurion (345 pts vs 170 pts) and the formations are somewhat inflexible (no praterians without taking the stalker, no Orikan unless you take a court etc).

I'd go with 9 spyders and 12 wraiths plus some scarabs if I had to make a tournament list using only a CAD. Then either two ghost arks and two CCBs with just warscythes or maybe just 2x5 immortals as troops and some praetorians in elites.

TheProgram wrote:
To change the subject (we can come back to the tactitcal impact of this formation when YMDC came to a consens on what its actually does):

How strong can a Necron CAD + Allied Detachment be? The real tournament strenght of the space robots comes from the Decurion, unlike to many cheesy power builds, that work well even in the CAD+1 setting. I'm attending a tournament soon(tm) with that restriction and liked to get som idears what you guys think would be competitive - ooutside of "spam wraith". I will bring some of them for shure but i 18 of them is not my cup of tea. I was thinking of Orikanstar + some wraith, and the rest either av13 heavy or without any vehicle at all.

CAD is perfectly fine. You're not going to be as durable, but you'll have more flexibility as to what you bring. Depending on the mission and enemies, it can actually be better than the Decurion.

If you're going to shy away from Wraiths, you'll have a bit of a harder time. The rest of the codex is fine, yes, but there's a reason Wraiths are popular. A unit of two of them makes a fast, formidable front line that is really only threatened by D and Stomp. If you skip that, you'll have to change your tactics a bit to compensate, especially against faster Assault armies.