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Regarding the Retribution Phalanx:
[ignoring the whole whether-Scarabs-added-by-Spyders-return-with-the-unit thing]

Which is the unit to focus on when expanding the formation? Warriors or Scarabs?
If you bring too many Warriors or Scarab bases it might make them too hard to kill... does this work for or against the formation?

Too bad the Stalker has no bearing on anything. They missed a golden opportunity to sell more of those models by not giving them some sort of formation benefitting ability that people would want to incorporate into their lists (eg. "Targeting Jammer: the Triarch Stalker from this formation and all models within 6" of it have a 3+ cover save (or maybe a 5+ invulnerable save, or some other useful bonus, I dunno)" or something)

If I were to use one (and I'm considering it), I would run a stock unit of Warriors and a maxed unit of Scarabs. Even with 9, Scarabs die easy enough if focused on, and if they're not, they get to do what they want. There's always the chance that they'll get plinked down a bit turn by turn via bolters, but a max unit is only 180 points and that will rarely happen.

The plan is to run them at the unit that is most likely to kill them or most threatening to the rest of your army. Run it at a WK - if it shoots at the Scarabs, that's less shooting elsewhere. If it doesn't, they charge it and it kills them in Assault, hopefully after spending a turn locked in there. If you spread out well, it on average shouldn't be able to kill a full unit of 9 in one turn.

But for that reason, I'm not sure about bringing a unit of Spyders to build it up. If it doesn't get killed, those few remaining Scarabs are kinda SoL, but then you could always just run them into something that will be sure to kill them.

I think it might require some testing. Now that the rules are out, I'm sure no one would be opposed to me running it.

Definitely Scarabs. The formation completely gets rid of their primary weakness, and they're SOOOO mobile that, once they die, you can quickly send them out to another target.

I'm definitely leaning towards Scarabs, but I have a feeling 9 might not be the best number for them.
7 is still going to be a hell of a lot of attacks while not being too many bases to chew through. Maybe even 6? (or 5, even??)

Made a test list that was basically just 4x Retribution Phalanx at 1850 that looked like it might be amusing... would probably never run it, though.

Still,
A couple of them, maybe with some Heavy Destroyers to sit next to the Stalkers, might not be too bad.
Just gotta make sure you can get first blood before you start sending off your sacrificial respawning pawns.

 skoffs wrote:
I'm definitely leaning towards Scarabs, but I have a feeling 9 might not be the best number for them.
7 is still going to be a hell of a lot of attacks while not being too many bases to chew through. Maybe even 6? (or 5, even??)

Made a test list that was basically just 4x Retribution Phalanx at 1850 that looked like it might be amusing... would probably never run it, though.

Still,
A couple of them, maybe with some Heavy Destroyers to sit next to the Stalkers, might not be too bad.
Just gotta make sure you can get first blood before you start sending off your sacrificial respawning pawns.

I think 7 would be pretty damn solid for a unit you can't exactly, well, kill.

So not entirely wanting to go through 125 pages, how can Necrons deal with bulds like penta-flyrant, grav star, or IoM superfriends.

oz of the north wrote:
So not entirely wanting to go through 125 pages, how can Necrons deal with bulds like penta-flyrant, grav star, or IoM superfriends.

Pentyrant isn't that scary to Necrons. Everything we have is so durable that we can generally just weather the shooting, and we're not too bad at shooting them down. A blob of Warriors in Rapid Fire range actually does a ton of shooting into the sky and has a decent chance of pushing Wounds through. Night Scythes will generally get a couple on the turn they fly on as well, so if you fly towards a Tyrant and unload Warriors you can generally Ground one at the very least. Otherwise, just march forward, weather the storm, and get more objectives than them because Flyrants don't score unless they land, which they won't.

Gravstar/Superfriends - search me. I feel like a MSU list is necessary, but the amount of damage that a IoM star puts out is pretty brutal. Orikanstar can weather the storm, but it'll basically just be two unkillable units since you'll never catch them and if you do, they'll be Invisible. Don't try to do damage to the star itself, just try to survive it and get points on the board, but I don't think there's a set Necron list that really counters it.

In all, the big tournament lists right now are Eldar (Scatbike/WKs), IoM Superfriends, Knights, War Convo, and Battle Company. We do alright against the latter 2, but struggle against the first three. Daemons are somewhere up there too, and we possibly can fight them or not depending on the list, but I'm not really sure that Necrons are S-tier at the moment.

Anyone else had any luck with trying a hammer & anvil tactics?
Obviously Wraiths fit the anvil role perfectly, what with being fast, fearless, and hard to kill.
For a hammer, I was thinking Lychguard. Particularly scythe Lychguard.

Plan being, rush Wraiths up, grab something juicy and hold it.
Next, send up Lychguard to engage whatever it is the Wraiths are holding (either by Night Scythe or Veil). Lychguard take them apart.

I figure, if they're run in a Decurion, the Lychguard don't really need the 3++, they're already plenty durable. Instead, we need ways to be able to take down Knights... and I think a handful of Warscythes might just be the ticket

 skoffs wrote:
Anyone else had any luck with trying a hammer & anvil tactics?
Obviously Wraiths fit the anvil role perfectly, what with being fast, fearless, and hard to kill.
For a hammer, I was thinking Lychguard. Particularly scythe Lychguard.

Plan being, rush Wraiths up, grab something juicy and hold it.
Next, send up Lychguard to engage whatever it is the Wraiths are holding (either by Night Scythe or Veil). Lychguard take them apart.

I figure, if they're run in a Decurion, the Lychguard don't really need the 3++, they're already plenty durable. Instead, we need ways to be able to take down Knights... and I think a handful of Warscythes might just be the ticket

See the thing is, though, that Warscythe Lychguard need to do a lot to take down Knights. If they Veil or Night Scythe in, they need to survive the turn they can't charge, which against some armies can be asking a lot. You can mitigate that with Solar Staff, Chronometron, or some 2+/4++ characters in the unit, but only so much. Then, once you get into combat, you need to survive. Knights all have D or S10 at AP2, whether that's WKs or Imp Knights, and all of them go before you. While the Wraiths are tying them up and holding them in place, if you charge into them they're just going to turn all their attacks onto the 3+ Lychguard and just obliterate them before I2. Especially if they get buffed with things like Invis, Prescience, or the like.

3++ isn't just for marching across the board, it's for actually surviving the combat. I think I've gone towards less in the unit, though. A unit of 5 Shields mixed with extra Warscythe/2+/4++ characters is probably just as durable and more killy. In this situation, you're not looking for the Lychguard to kill anything, but rather just to keep the characters alive until they can cut everything to shreds. 5 Shields is only 150 points, which is pretty cheap for giving a multi-character deathstar 5 extra insanely unkillable wounds.

The Retribution Phalanx is probably your best bet for hammer and anvil style tactics.

Scarabs are super good at handling IKs. They are merely adequate by themselves against WKs but the Retribution Phalanx enables you to keep hammering them with reborn units and keep taking them offline.

Compare the damage output of these units:

SHW (using IK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 10 bases --> 50 attacks/charge --> 25 hits --> 4.165 HP
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 7.14 bases --> 28.6 attacks/charge --> 14.3 hits --> 2.38 HP
200 pts of Wraiths --> 5 bases --> 20 attacks/charge --> 10 hits --> 1.667 HP
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.6 bases --> 6.4 attacks/charge -->4.27 hits --> 3.50 HP

GMC (using WK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 4.165 W --> 1.38 (3+ save) --> 0.92 W (FNP)
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 2.38 W --> 1.59 (5++ save) --> 1.06 (FNP)
200 pts of Wraiths --> 1.667 W --> 1.11 (5++ save) --> 0.74 W (FNP)
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.42 W --> 0.95 (5++ save) --> 0.63 W (FNP)

As you can see, scarabs have the best overall damage output per point and if you start netting free points from the Retribution Phalanx their potency per point goes up dramatically.
Scarabs are the least survivable but the opponent is losing if he is wasting shots/attacks on Scarabs before the Overlord is taken care of. So you make the Overlord close to invincible.


Sample list:

Retribution phalanx with Overlord (PS,WS), Triarch Stalker, 10 x Warrior, 9 x Scarabs
Retribution phalanx with Overlord (PS,WS, GoF), Triarch Stalker, 10 x Warrior, 9 x Scarabs

CAD with Orikan, 6 Sword and Board Lychguard, 2 x 5 immortals, 3 x 1 Heavy Destroyers, VSG (3 shields)

Obviously the Retribution Overlords go with the Lychguard and Orikan for a tough deathstar unit to take down (re-rollable 3++ and 4+++). The Deathstar will typically push forward to control the center of the board (while remaingin under the VSG).

The warriors bubble-wrap or push forward. The immortals take back unit objectives. The VSG offers additional protection. The scarabs go kamikaze!

Nice sample list. I'd prefer at least 2 Heavy Destroyers per unit so they don't accidentally give up first blood too easily (plus increased chances to make sure they take out whatever they were shooting at), but that's just me.
No ResOrb with the Deathstar?

 skoffs wrote:
Nice sample list. I'd prefer at least 2 Heavy Destroyers per unit so they don't accidentally give up first blood too easily (plus increased chances to make sure they take out whatever they were shooting at), but that's just me.
No ResOrb with the Deathstar?

To squeeze in a ResOrb you would have to drop the GoF and a scarab base or a lychguard.

ResOrb is overkill on a unit with 3++ rerollable and 4+++ already me-thinks. The unit basically worries about D weapons for 6 and Stomps for 6 which ResOrb does nothing for.

A Solar Staff at 15 points is more sensible. Swap a WS for the SS. It's a reasonable swap because you are principally trying to keep the deathstar alive more than anything.

With JSJ and a VSG I am not too worried about giving up first blood. Splitting them up is a way to minimize your overshoot and morale problems and maximize the overshoot problems of the opponent.

col_impact wrote:
With JSJ and a VSG I am not too worried about giving up first blood. Splitting them up is a way to minimize your overshoot and morale problems and maximize the overshoot problems of the opponent.

Well if that's the case, why not shuffle some things around and add 2 to 3 more H.Destroyers in the CAD's FA slot?
(granted, I've never used VSGs before so I'm not sure, but would 3x shields really be required? Could you effectively get away with just two? Because 2x HGC Stalkers surrounded by 5 or 6 H.Destroyers sounds reeeeeally tempting. Peppering ALL the things with S9 AP2 "spam")

Sorry I'm not good with these acronyms.. what is a HGC stalker? VSG and JSJ?.

Sn33R wrote:
Sorry I'm not good with these acronyms.. what is a HGC stalker? VSG and JSJ?.

HGC stalker = Triarch Stalker packing a Heavy Gauss Cannon
VSG = Void Shield Generator (source: Stronghold Assault)
JSJ = 'jump shoot jump' tactic of jet pack units. Jump out of a place of hiding, shoot, then jump back into the place of hiding (by using the Thrust move in the Assault phase).

Thank you for that... Once you said it was so obvious ha ha silly me.. but thank you for the quick reply..

col_impact wrote:
SHW (using IK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 10 bases --> 50 attacks/charge --> 25 hits --> 4.165 HP
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 7.14 bases --> 28.6 attacks/charge --> 14.3 hits --> 2.38 HP
200 pts of Wraiths --> 5 bases --> 20 attacks/charge --> 10 hits --> 1.667 HP
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.6 bases --> 6.4 attacks/charge -->4.27 hits --> 3.50 HP

GMC (using WK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 4.165 W --> 1.38 (3+ save) --> 0.92 W (FNP)
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 2.38 W --> 1.59 (5++ save) --> 1.06 (FNP)
200 pts of Wraiths --> 1.667 W --> 1.11 (5++ save) --> 0.74 W (FNP)
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.42 W --> 0.95 (5++ save) --> 0.63 W (FNP)

Actually, this has had be thinking for a while,
Using this method to measure/determine, what in the codex ends up being the best at taking out what?
Do Scarabs reign supreme? Or are certain other things better against certain targets? (eg. Deathmarks vs GMCs)

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:
SHW (using IK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 10 bases --> 50 attacks/charge --> 25 hits --> 4.165 HP
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 7.14 bases --> 28.6 attacks/charge --> 14.3 hits --> 2.38 HP
200 pts of Wraiths --> 5 bases --> 20 attacks/charge --> 10 hits --> 1.667 HP
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.6 bases --> 6.4 attacks/charge -->4.27 hits --> 3.50 HP

GMC (using WK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 4.165 W --> 1.38 (3+ save) --> 0.92 W (FNP)
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 2.38 W --> 1.59 (5++ save) --> 1.06 (FNP)
200 pts of Wraiths --> 1.667 W --> 1.11 (5++ save) --> 0.74 W (FNP)
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.42 W --> 0.95 (5++ save) --> 0.63 W (FNP)

Actually, this has had be thinking for a while,
Using this method to measure/determine, what in the codex ends up being the best at taking out what?
Do Scarabs reign supreme? Or are certain other things better against certain targets? (eg. Deathmarks vs GMCs)

This chart is damage output on each target per 200 points. Important things that aren't factored in are the survivability of the unit and the mobility of the unit. So normally a scarab unit is very killy and mobile while being not very survivable. But in the retribution phalanx, the survivability of the scarab unit is tied to the survivability of the overlord so if we put the overlord into a heavily protected death star the scarab unit starts to look really really good because now it doesn't have a downside: it is killy, mobile, and survivable.

Now begs the question:
How many Retribution Phalanxes is too many Retribution Phalanxes?
• One isn't really going to do all that much.
• Two seems like the norm, with plenty of points to play around with for the remaining CAD choices.
• Three and your CAD is looking pretty slim, but hey! Six unkillable units!
• Four and you're not bringing anything else. Pure Ret.Phal

It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out

I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out

I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.

How many points is that for? even if the Overlords were just stock and you only had 5 Lychguard, that's well over 1850, probably over 2000.

Did they ever settle whether Ret.Phal Warrious can even take a GA?

 skoffs wrote:
Did they ever settle whether Ret.Phal Warrious can even take a GA?

Why not? It's a unit, and therefore it gets all the unit upgrade options. On the other hand, the Stalker is just one model, so it can't take anything else. The inclusion of the phrase "unit of" is the distinction.

Requizen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out

I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.

How many points is that for? even if the Overlords were just stock and you only had 5 Lychguard, that's well over 1850, probably over 2000.

Losing the Lychguard could be entirely fine. Orikan giving rerolls to a 4++ is still good. Alternatively you don't have to use Orikan; it would just be a great way of letting the Overlords survive MUCH longer, seeing that we want to continuously reuse the Scarabs and Warriors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out

I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.

How many points is that for? even if the Overlords were just stock and you only had 5 Lychguard, that's well over 1850, probably over 2000.

Losing the Lychguard could be entirely fine. Orikan giving rerolls to a 4++ is still good. Alternatively you don't have to use Orikan; it would just be a great way of letting the Overlords survive MUCH longer, seeing that we want to continuously reuse the Scarabs and Warriors.

It's not just that, that's just a lot of points in general.

Lord
Immortals x5 - Night Scythe
Immortals x5 - Night Scythe
Heavy Destroyers x3
Heavy Destroyers x3
Heavy Destroyers x3

Overlord
Warriors x10
Scarabs x9
Stalker

Overlord
Warriors x10
Scarabs x9
Stalker

1960

That's just stock Lord/Overlords as well. Dropping the Heavies is probably the first option (though the Stalkers would be lonely), but even then by the time you upgrade the HQs, it's not a particularly super strong army.

I think 1 is enough. 2 is a fun themed list, but too focused and probably unnecessary. Stalkers and Overlords are just not cheap, and you need to get support units to go with this, and probably more than just 2 min Immortals for ObSec as well. One Ret Phalanx gives you two unkillable tarpit units, a nice support unit, and an extra HQ slot. Two is just kind of overkill.

Huh. That's actually a lot more expensive than I thought.

Losing the Scythes could be the first option to make room...

You don't NEED three Heavy D's in each unit. It's slightly overkill. Two per unit is fine. You can even get away with one per unit if there's a lot of line if sight blocking terrain (see Col's comment further up the thread).
Two HGC Stalkers surrounded by six Heavy D's is some pretty decent shooting... though, if you cut those Ret.Phal Scarab units down a bit, you'll have a bit more wiggle room.
(even with the Night Scythes in you still have enough points to spare for gear to keep you Overlords alive)

Eh, Orikan with the Overlords featuring Phase Shifters and Phylacteries would be better. Scarabs and Warriors won't appear near the Overlords if they're not on the field.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh, Orikan with the Overlords featuring Phase Shifters and Phylacteries would be better. Scarabs and Warriors won't appear near the Overlords if they're not on the field.

So then, (though, I think I'd much rather prefer a Veil on one of the Overlords instead of the two Phylacteries, just so you can have an emergency escape system in case you need to get away from something quickly)

Hmm, that might be a good point. There's plenty of ideas to play with at least...