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skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
1. I was just talking durability and the fact that it has an ability that doesn't make much sense against FMC's. It was me rambling. However, nothing stops the Obelisk from entering that mode after it enters the field.
2. You overstate the danger of two of those units. Flyrants have FOUR attacks and are honestly pansies in melee. Only 2 of those are going to hit and possibly wound one, and you will RP one of them, leaving the other four (and a good chance to actually keep five, seeing that the math says .9 will die) to still attack. An Imperial Knight will only hit with 1.5 attacks, though granted those are gonna kill if they hit. Otherwise, Praetorians can do an okay job of stripping HP and tarpitting.
Wraithknights are good against anything they get into melee with though so whatever.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
1. I was just talking durability and the fact that it has an ability that doesn't make much sense against FMC's. It was me rambling. However, nothing stops the Obelisk from entering that mode after it enters the field.
Nothing except the codex, which says "An Obelisk that arrives by Deep Strike is automatically powered up. Once powered up, an Obelisk cannot power down later in the game".
2. You overstate the danger of two of those units. Flyrants have FOUR attacks and are honestly pansies in melee. Only 2 of those are going to hit and possibly wound one, and you will RP one of them, leaving the other four (and a good chance to actually keep five, seeing that the math says .9 will die) to still attack. An Imperial Knight will only hit with 1.5 attacks, though granted those are gonna kill if they hit. Otherwise, Praetorians can do an okay job of stripping HP and tarpitting.
Wraithknights are good against anything they get into melee with though so whatever.
Didn't realize that Flyrants were that lousy in assault, I'm used to FMCs being more beastly. Imp Knights have AP2 D attacks and Stomp. Unless you're running max units of Praets, that's going to kill them sooner rather than later. 4 Praets will take off 1 HP per turn (maybe 2 on the charge), but the Knight kills 1 per turn and a 6 on the Stomp says goodbye.
Not saying Praets are bad assault units, but they're kind of odd in that regard. They'll flay alive anything that's not a Deathstar or LoW no matter which weapon they're using, but they have a breaking point where that'll just stop happening and the most they can hope for is to tarpit. Which they can do decently, 3+/RP/Fearless makes them hard to kill by non-D or non-6 Stomps, but they won't be winning fights against those big targets any time soon.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/08 22:11:19
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
1. I was just talking durability and the fact that it has an ability that doesn't make much sense against FMC's. It was me rambling. However, nothing stops the Obelisk from entering that mode after it enters the field.
Nothing except the codex, which says "An Obelisk that arrives by Deep Strike is automatically powered up. Once powered up, an Obelisk cannot power down later in the game".
2. You overstate the danger of two of those units. Flyrants have FOUR attacks and are honestly pansies in melee. Only 2 of those are going to hit and possibly wound one, and you will RP one of them, leaving the other four (and a good chance to actually keep five, seeing that the math says .9 will die) to still attack. An Imperial Knight will only hit with 1.5 attacks, though granted those are gonna kill if they hit. Otherwise, Praetorians can do an okay job of stripping HP and tarpitting.
Wraithknights are good against anything they get into melee with though so whatever.
Didn't realize that Flyrants were that lousy in assault, I'm used to FMCs being more beastly. Imp Knights have AP2 D attacks and Stomp. Unless you're running max units of Praets, that's going to kill them sooner rather than later. 4 Praets will take off 1 HP per turn (maybe 2 on the charge), but the Knight kills 1 per turn and a 6 on the Stomp says goodbye.
Not saying Praets are bad assault units, but they're kind of odd in that regard. They'll flay alive anything that's not a Deathstar or LoW no matter which weapon they're using, but they have a breaking point where that'll just stop happening and the most they can hope for is to tarpit. Which they can do decently, 3+/RP/Fearless makes them hard to kill by non-D or non-6 Stomps, but they won't be winning fights against those big targets any time soon.
1. My bad, I suppose I missed that part. I'll concede on that.
2. There's a reason people run two Devourers. Flyrants are garbage in assault and do better throwing out about 10 S6 shots a turn. I already talked about Knights and I don't really think they're that dangerous for Necrons. Stomp is a 1/6 chance of actually removing everyone. I'll take that chance for tarpitting for two turns at 140 points!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
skoffs wrote: The other ones I know, but... what's AEQ?
I would imagine Aspect Equivalent, since some aspects (Banshees, Dire Avengers, Hawks) are on a 4+. I've always seen WEQ for Warrior Equivalent, since Necron Warriors and Tau Fire Warriors are 4+.
Yeah, WEQ seems like a better fit. Warriors are a bit more obvious at first glance, as far as understanding what kind of save we're talking about.
The thing about FLG's tournaments is that there's always an insane amount of line of sight blockers. So hiding the Spyder and guaranteeing Reanimation Protocols is basically a given.
So yeah, it's a Wraithstar nee Orikanstar, with Solar Staff and two 2+ characters for tanking AP3 or worse wounds. Null deploy with DS was a big part of the game at LVO, so I imagine that's what the Destroyers were doing.
It's a legit list. While the characters end up slowing down the Wraiths, it's still more mobile than Lychstar since the core of it is fast.
Huh, that's not a bad idea.
With S6 Rending they'll def be better against a wider variety of targets than S5 AP3 swords.
Wonder how the damage output/survivability to points ratio works out versus Shield-Guard?
But yeah, how'd that list deal with vehicles?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/09 14:12:41
skoffs wrote: Huh, that's not a bad idea.
With S6 Rending they'll def be better against a wider variety of targets than S5 AP3 swords.
Wonder how the damage output/survivability to points ratio works out versus Shield-Guard?
But yeah, how'd that list deal with vehicles?
Umm, how do you think? Gauss from Destroyers that rerolls. And Wraiths can hurt anything.
Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
Pretty sure a squad of 5 Destroyers strips 3 HP (it has been months since I did that math). That means that your Heavy Destroyers can take on the more dangerous targets.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
A unit of 4 Destroyers in a Destroyer Cult (such as the ones in his list) would strip 1.90 HPs in a single round of shooting assuming the AV is 11+ and there's no cover/jink save involved.
A unit of 3 Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer would strip 2.16 HPs BEFORE rolling for penetrating against AV 11. This number gets slightly worse with higher AVs but there's still a potential for rolling a Destroyed result on the penetrating table while 4 Destroyers has NO chance of rolling Destroyed result.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/09 17:39:58
skoffs wrote: Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
A unit of 4 Destroyers in a Destroyer Cult (such as the ones in his list) would strip 1.90 HPs in a single round of shooting assuming the AV is 11+ and there's no cover/jink save involved.
A unit of 3 Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer would strip 2.16 HPs BEFORE rolling for penetrating against AV 11. This number gets slightly worse with higher AVs but there's still a potential for rolling a Destroyed result on the penetrating table while 4 Destroyers has NO chance of rolling Destroyed result.
You might want to re-check your math.
My math for 4 Destroyers against AV 11+
8 shots
BS 4 PE = 0.777 chance to hit
6s to glance with reroll = .3333 chance to glance (oops .305)
8 * 0.7777 * .3333 = 2.07 HP
correction: 8 * 0.777 * 0.305 = 1.9. You are correct.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/09 17:47:04
skoffs wrote: Hmm, typically relying on Guass to deal with AV isn't the best tactic, but maybe... with 2 S5 shots that reroll 1s to hit and auto glance on a 6 that can reroll pens, how many Destroyers would it statistically take to strip 3 HPs?
(and if the Wraith Star is stuck on anti vehicle duty, I have a feeling something has not gone to plan)
A unit of 4 Destroyers in a Destroyer Cult (such as the ones in his list) would strip 1.90 HPs in a single round of shooting assuming the AV is 11+ and there's no cover/jink save involved.
A unit of 3 Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer would strip 2.16 HPs BEFORE rolling for penetrating against AV 11. This number gets slightly worse with higher AVs but there's still a potential for rolling a Destroyed result on the penetrating table while 4 Destroyers has NO chance of rolling Destroyed result.
You might want to re-check your math.
My math for 4 Destroyers against AV 11+
8 shots
BS 4 PE = 0.777 chance to hit
6s to glance with reroll = .3333 chance to glance (oops .305)
8 * 0.7777 * .3333 = 2.07 HP
correction: 8 * 0.777 * 0.305 = 1.9. You are correct.
BTW, if you want to do the math yourself, here's the formula.
number of shots = N
Chance of hitting = H (so if BS is 4, insert 2/3 for H)
Chance of penetrating = P (Str 5 gauss vs AV 11 is 1/6) (And by penetrating I mean just Glancing or better. The odds of Penetrating would be different)
Chance of reroll to hit= RH (So for preferred enemy, this is always 1/6. For twin-linked, this is the inverse of Chance of Hitting. So 1/3 if twin-linked with BS 4.)
chance of reroll to pen= RP (5/6 in a destroyer cult. 1/6 if not due to preferred enemy)
Formula: N * (H + (RH*H))) * (P + (RP*P)))
If you want to add Jink or Cover to the equation you just multiple by the chance of Cover (so 1/2 for a 4+ save).
This formula can be applied to anything where a to-hit roll and to-wound/penetrate roll is involved and there might be a reroll.
So for the example above, 4 destroyers.
N = 8
H = 2/3
P = 1/6
RH = 1/6
RP = 5/6
insert into formula:
8 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))
copy paste that to a calc and you get 1.901234...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But anyway, the point of the exercise is that the 10points required to upgrade a Destroyer to a Heavy Destroyer is a small price to pay for at least the chance of getting a Destroyed result AND to average more HPs anyway.
However, it looks like he was using his Destroyers more as an MEQ killer, which means just taking Destroyers will be better than paying for the Heavy.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/02/09 18:05:32
Okay, so regular Cult Destroyers are somewhat decent at hurting vehicles.
Does that make them one of the better swiss army knives in the codex? (able to threaten a bigger range of targets than most other things available to us)
Though if he was primarily using them for MEQ murdering, and assuming he wasn't wasting the deathstar on it, what in that list was going after vehicles? The minimum Scarabs and Spyder? The Troops? Or was the meta just so vehicle lite that the list doesn't really need anything particularly anti-vehicle?
skoffs wrote: Okay, so regular Cult Destroyers are somewhat decent at hurting vehicles.
Does that make them one of the better swiss army knives in the codex? (able to threaten a bigger range of targets than most other things available to us)
Though if he was primarily using them for MEQ murdering, and assuming he wasn't wasting the deathstar on it, what in that list was going after vehicles? The minimum Scarabs and Spyder? The Troops? Or was the meta just so vehicle lite that the list doesn't really need anything particularly anti-vehicle?
It's probably that last part. That's why the guy with the Monolith and Obelisk probably did so well.
Requizen wrote: The thing about FLG's tournaments is that there's always an insane amount of line of sight blockers. So hiding the Spyder and guaranteeing Reanimation Protocols is basically a given.
So yeah, it's a Wraithstar nee Orikanstar, with Solar Staff and two 2+ characters for tanking AP3 or worse wounds. Null deploy with DS was a big part of the game at LVO, so I imagine that's what the Destroyers were doing.
It's a legit list. While the characters end up slowing down the Wraiths, it's still more mobile than Lychstar since the core of it is fast.
I think it's important to recognize that the Wraiths can perform different duties per match-up and per phase in game.
Instead of always being slow like Lychguard, the Wraiths can split off and use their speed to score the points that win the game.
Requizen wrote: The thing about FLG's tournaments is that there's always an insane amount of line of sight blockers. So hiding the Spyder and guaranteeing Reanimation Protocols is basically a given.
So yeah, it's a Wraithstar nee Orikanstar, with Solar Staff and two 2+ characters for tanking AP3 or worse wounds. Null deploy with DS was a big part of the game at LVO, so I imagine that's what the Destroyers were doing.
It's a legit list. While the characters end up slowing down the Wraiths, it's still more mobile than Lychstar since the core of it is fast.
I think it's important to recognize that the Wraiths can perform different duties per match-up and per phase in game.
Instead of always being slow like Lychguard, the Wraiths can split off and use their speed to score the points that win the game.
True, also, once other threats are taken care of, 2+/4++ characters are more than capable of staying alive by themselves once the Wraiths split off.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so regular Cult Destroyers are somewhat decent at hurting vehicles.
Does that make them one of the better swiss army knives in the codex? (able to threaten a bigger range of targets than most other things available to us)
Though if he was primarily using them for MEQ murdering, and assuming he wasn't wasting the deathstar on it, what in that list was going after vehicles? The minimum Scarabs and Spyder? The Troops? Or was the meta just so vehicle lite that the list doesn't really need anything particularly anti-vehicle?
It's probably that last part. That's why the guy with the Monolith and Obelisk probably did so well.
Part of the reason is that ITC Format doesn't let you bring every single thing you want.
The other part is that less Melta is brought, simply because it is already easy enough to strip HP off AV14 anyway. Even in an environment like this, the Monolith is still junk. Necrons are already plenty speedy if you choose to build them as such, and the Monolith is stuck with snap-firing its other weapons if you use the Particle Whip.
That said, the Obelisk becomes a slightly better choice. 100 more points gives you 2 more HP and the Super Heavy status, and Tesla Spheres are a much better deal than 4 Gauss Flux Arcs and the Particle Whip. Plus it can harm the only vehicles that matter: skimmers.
However, I would think that the Vault is a better buy if you want to throw a giant target in the middle of your opponent's army, as it'll do an explosion regardless of how it lost its last HP. However, I'm not going to bother with the kit anyway because I hear too many arguments about how you use the Spheres when determining what they can target.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Part of the reason is that ITC Format doesn't let you bring every single thing you want.
The other part is that less Melta is brought, simply because it is already easy enough to strip HP off AV14 anyway. Even in an environment like this, the Monolith is still junk. Necrons are already plenty speedy if you choose to build them as such, and the Monolith is stuck with snap-firing its other weapons if you use the Particle Whip.
That said, the Obelisk becomes a slightly better choice. 100 more points gives you 2 more HP and the Super Heavy status, and Tesla Spheres are a much better deal than 4 Gauss Flux Arcs and the Particle Whip. Plus it can harm the only vehicles that matter: skimmers.
However, I would think that the Vault is a better buy if you want to throw a giant target in the middle of your opponent's army, as it'll do an explosion regardless of how it lost its last HP. However, I'm not going to bother with the kit anyway because I hear too many arguments about how you use the Spheres when determining what they can target.
Both the Obelisk and the Vault explode when they die, it's just that the Vault always gets the most powerful Superheavy Explosion. In fact, the Obelisk is better at blowing up, since it's not as wide as the Vault and therefore the explosion is more likely to scatter onto enemies instead of onto itself. There's still basically no reason to take the Vault.
Regarding the LVO list, I think that's basically the best way to use the Obelisk, that is, to use it as a central point for your alpha/beta strike with Living Tomb. The other way is to bring it by itself on the table in powered down mode and survive until everything comes in, but honestly everything else is so durable that we don't need to bring a 300 point model to guarantee we don't get tabled before Turn 2, some Warriors with 4+ RP and cover will do that just fine.
Deep Striking it by itself with the guaranteed T2 from Living Tomb (minus a Monolith) is fine... I suppose. It needs to do some real damage on the turn it comes down, though. If it does, it's a big distraction brick that will draw all the high Strength fire, but its effectiveness is really dependent on what you can supplement it with.
And yes, people will always complain about sphere facings. It's basically a given, so clear it with a TO before using it in a serious event.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Less investment would still make me take the Obelisk every time. That 250 points could go to almost 3 Deathmark squads or a minimum Canoptek Harvest.
Monoliths are about 50 Spotlights cheaper
But yes, you can get a lot from leaving the Monolith at home. But, you lose out on that precision DS and teleporting.
The sphere thing with the Obelisk is the only reason I'm hesitant to buy one. It's really dumb that a model that expensive is make or break based on a single poorly written rule.
Zimko wrote: The sphere thing with the Obelisk is the only reason I'm hesitant to buy one. It's really dumb that a model that expensive is make or break based on a single poorly written rule.
It always seems obvious to me. The gun is called a Tesla Sphere, so the enclosure around the sphere provides the turret.
Zimko wrote: The sphere thing with the Obelisk is the only reason I'm hesitant to buy one. It's really dumb that a model that expensive is make or break based on a single poorly written rule.
It always seems obvious to me. The gun is called a Tesla Sphere, so the enclosure around the sphere provides the turret.
Which is how most people play it, but others point out that the Spheres actually have a vertical "track" that the "barrel" sits on. As there is nothing that explicitly says it has full horizontal motion, it comes up every once in a while. I've never seen anyone argue it at a tournament (since without the full range it's 300 points of bunk), but you can always bet there'll be that one guy.
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