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Disagree. Speaking from many games of experience, Orikanstar is actually pretty garbage against Eldar, depending on what they bring. If it's jetbike/Warp Spider spam with WKs, it basically does nothing. Everything is too fast and the only thing you can hope to kill is the WK since it might actually get into combat with you, but then it comes down to luck that you can take it down before it stomps you. Bikes and Spyders/Hawks will never ever ever be in range for you to charge unless you really outmaneuver them, and even then it'll be killing off only 3-6 models at a time. Poor use of deathstar.

MSU shooting with speed is much better, or the Wraith + Orikan + Veil combo that some people run. Destroyer Cult is still good against non-vehicles. AP3 with rerolling everything except 2s to hit is great, and you can Deep Strike them if you know he's gonna play keep-away. It's relatively MSU so losing one doesn't hurt that much, and in a Decurion they're bloody indestructible except against D.

Wraiths are still relatively fine, they just can't be the only thing your army relies on. I've done 15-18 Wraith lists before and they all just get chunked down before they get somewhere. Splitting up threats while also having a Wraith brick with DLord is solid, just don't go overboard. In fact, I generally run my Wraiths only 3 Whip Coils because I know at least 1 or 2 of them is going to die before they get there.

Might suggest splitting your Tomb Blades up to make three units. Better chance of taking objectives.
If you do want to keep them 2x5, perhaps consider doing them 3x Gauss / 2x Beamers in each unit, rather than 5 of one and 5 of the other. More versatile that way.

Also, yes to Wraiths. Speed and survivability are premium in this game. They're worth it, even if not attaching a D.Lord.

And I don't know what that other guy was talking about with Destroyers not being good against eldar. You'll melt through almost everything's armor with all but guaranteed wounds.

Praetorians are good, but yeah, a little tricky to use. With Destroyers on the field you're already going to be fine for ignoring armor, so AP2 Rods might be overkill. If you take Wraiths+D.Lord you would also be good for a rending CC unit, making Praets a little obsolete.

One thing that might be worth considering would be Deathmarks. If he's playing with reserves or MCs/GCs, this is a good slap in the face.

 skoffs wrote:
Might suggest splitting your Tomb Blades up to make three units. Better chance of taking objectives.
If you do want to keep them 2x5, perhaps consider doing them 3x Gauss / 2x Beamers in each unit, rather than 5 of one and 5 of the other. More versatile that way.

Also, yes to Wraiths. Speed and survivability are premium in this game. They're worth it, even if not attaching a D.Lord.

And I don't know what that other guy was talking about with Destroyers not being good against eldar. You'll melt through almost everything's armor with all but guaranteed wounds.

Praetorians are good, but yeah, a little tricky to use. With Destroyers on the field you're already going to be fine for ignoring armor, so AP2 Rods might be overkill. If you take Wraiths+D.Lord you would also be good for a rending CC unit, making Praets a little obsolete.

One thing that might be worth considering would be Deathmarks. If he's playing with reserves or MCs/GCs, this is a good slap in the face.

I tend to agree in the Praetorians. Ap2 is overkill against most eldar. Wraiths I've dismissed due to the reckless abandon rule corsairs have. Any shooting (even overwatch) they can move 6 +1d6 away, and have psykers who can force the 1d6 to auto 6. So they are functually immune to charges unless at the corner of the board.

Tomb blades are good, wraiths are solid but scatbikes will melt them all the same.

Not sure about corsairs, but i'm pretty sure that Eldar have no interceptor. anyhing that can deepstrike into range is good.

Destroyers/Praets have natural deepstrike.
Using them and deathmarks can do a lot of damage, deathmarks also have the perk of being our best unit for taking on a GMC, doing ~5 wounds to a wraithknight without cover (before FNP) if they drop in rapid fire.

Just to chime in agreement with Skoffs, destroyers will melt anything with a 3+ and up save, because Extermination protocols are crazy good. The only thing they are not great against is GMCs, and a cult can still drop a wraith knight in two turns. Deathmarks will drown a GMC in wounds, so they are a natural fit for that role.

Also tomb blades range from good to godly depending on who you are fighting. Against the tau they eat pathfinders for breakfast, and without pathfinders and their marker lights much of the Taus most egregious cheese is pretty thoroughly grated. AP 4 and ignores cover means any wounds will kill, and you wound on a 2+ with twin linked rapid fire to hit. The worst part about them is putting them together.

Having decided to update my much neglected since the 7th edition update came about and ruined my army, I was wondering what exactly are our options against Flyers these days are? I think the only unit I don't have barring FW is the Obelisk, and I don't have the Flyer uodate book. I am to understand our flyers do not have skyfire anymore, so what exacty do we do?

My old list used 2 night scythes in the judicator battalion as anti air but seeing as that isn't an option anymore, I can feasible drop those I suppose.

Do we just ignore flyers these days and focus on the ground war while others spend points planning for the paper/rock/scissors air war?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Having decided to update my much neglected since the 7th edition update came about and ruined my army, I was wondering what exactly are our options against Flyers these days are? I think the only unit I don't have barring FW is the Obelisk, and I don't have the Flyer uodate book. I am to understand our flyers do not have skyfire anymore, so what exacty do we do?

My old list used 2 night scythes in the judicator battalion as anti air but seeing as that isn't an option anymore, I can feasible drop those I suppose.

Do we just ignore flyers these days and focus on the ground war while others spend points planning for the paper/rock/scissors air war?

The air book is optional, but if you play with it, then yes, neither of the flyers have skyfire anymore.

I broke down and bought an Aegis Defense line just to have a Quad gun to shoot with. Park an Overlord or Tomb Blade (with ignore cover) and get a couple shots off at least.

From what I've seen the book specifically says it replaces Flyer rules making it non-optional....even if in no way will I buy that book without it having a huge discount lol.

I feel that whether you bring anti-air or not hasn't changed with DftS - if your meta has lots of flyers, you were probably bringing more than Night Scythes before. If you were previously just relying on them for your anti-air, you might want to consider bringing something like said and Aegis Line or, if you're playing a CAD, some Sentry Pylons.

Similarly, if you were bringing Night Scythes before in general, losing Skyfire isn't that big of a deal and you can still take them for the same role. They're still excellent (albeit a bit expensive) transports, and they do lots of damage to light targets on the ground. That hasn't changed. Yes, there is a slight chance that they get killed in Dogfighting, so you have to weigh that, but from what I've heard most people aren't even interested in using it and many events have already said that they're going to ignore it but use the other rules from the book.

I don't think DftS is motivating people to bring Flyers where they weren't before. Maybe some people will try to mind-game it and bring flyers for the reserve bonus since they think most people won't bring their own, but I think that's really just a fringe case.

tl;dr - game doesn't change much for us unless you were only bringing Scythes for anti-air and/or your meta is lousy with flyers.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
From what I've seen the book specifically says it replaces Flyer rules making it non-optional

If you use the book, then yes, you must go by the new rules... but here's the thing: you don't need to use the book.
GW themselves said it is an optional supplement.

Besides, the Necron FAQ draft should be out soon enough. For all we know they're going to errata the Night Scythe... and if they don't, if enough people comment on the FB page entry along the lines of "So, what, the Necrons now have ZERO skyfire options in the codex??" they'll probably have to address it in the final draft.

I've always felt the anni barge should have skyfire, maybe we will get lucky lol.

Yeah, that unit does look like an AA battery. Its even a lightning weapon; aircraft do not like lightning.

Maybe it can have a rule where it can shoot aerial targets with no penalty, but it can't proc tesla in that case.

While I understand the complaint about losing a 'Skyfire' option, it's also makes me want to say 'So What?'. Even with all the changes, I still haven't really seen a flyer to be worried about or have to deal with. Most of the ones that are a threat, it's more for what they are carrying, and not the flyer themselves, and they usually survive long enough to drop off their payload. Even then, it's been infinitely easier to deal with them once they're on the ground, but that's just my opinion. I can't think of a game where I've had no ground targets to deal with first before even worrying about any flyers. We still have Mysterious Objectives, provided you're actually playing with them. More often than not, it's more about 'How are Flyers going to deal with us?'

If we're going to get into wishful thinking though, I'd really like to see Tomb Blades get an anti-flyer role. Since that's really what their fluff says.

As for other things with the FAQ. The Praetorian thing got cleared up. Killing that additional 1-2 models per game on Overwatch is going to make huge impact on all our games. Like the Flyer rules, the Transport for Praetorians would be nice to have an answer on, but I still can't think of a use for it on the game play side. It would only really be to deliver the Praetorians in a position where they're not bunched up. Anything over the 24" though and they're snapfiring, and if you're going for something backfield you're probably better off Deep Striking anyhow. In any other situation, I see Lychguard in a Nightscythe being a better option. So probably won't be using it, even if we get it. (sidenote: I've yet to meet a player that hasn't allowed me to do it if I wanted to.)

The Ghost Ark thing doesn't really bother me, since I stopped running them a long time ago. While I understand the frustration for those who relied on the tactic, it's harder to not feel sorry for the Dark Eldar. I TRULY feel bad for them, since that was one of their mainstay tactics. Now it's just a twin-linked BS1 splinter boat if you can get them to 'jink'. I think we'll be just fine in comparison.

ON the upside, Flayed Ones got a bit of a boost that made me super happy. Infiltrate is back to being optional. We're not forced to use Infiltrate against armies that are in our face turn 1. No more do I have to sit around with Drop Pod Marines, 2" from my Flayed Ones with 2 turns of Flamers, or those irritating 'Nope, you're not going to infiltrate here' Inquisitor allies. While it is funny that we still can't start an IC in the unit, this makes it a bit easier if that's something a Necron player wants to try.

EDIT: Anyone else happy about Void Shields?

Well the loss of skyfire also hurts when combating FMCs also don't forget. While I agree that flyers are not too powerful in most instances and if we were to avoid them at least once and a while we will screw the guy that took a fighter lol. However, its the flyrants, and greater daemons (there are more I assume) that we don't want just having a run of the board. Not sure I'm happy that a Bloodthirster is more likely than not to make it into combat against my army.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Well the loss of skyfire also hurts when combating FMCs also don't forget. While I agree that flyers are not too powerful in most instances and if we were to avoid them at least once and a while we will screw the guy that took a fighter lol. However, its the flyrants, and greater daemons (there are more I assume) that we don't want just having a run of the board. Not sure I'm happy that a Bloodthirster is more likely than not to make it into combat against my army.

Why are those a threat? Even if they were, how were they being killed with the existing 'Skyfire' units? They can't score anything until they land, so isn't NOT shooting them the preferred tactic? Grounding them only leaves them free to charge on their turn? If you don't shoot them, they can't charge because they have to switch modes, so we get a full turn of shooting them anyways.

I'm not trying to sound overconfident, my experience against them is limited. I've never seen more than 2 Flyrants, and they've never done anything more than fly around and harass the units on the ground. Bloodthirsters have been mean, but even with Relentless Warriors, we have phenomenal board control in keeping him where we want anyways. I feel like I'm missing something, because the 'how do you deal with FMC's' constantly comes up, especially when people see my lists. It's just never been an issue.

Funny enough the most I've seen is 4 flyrants with an allied bloodthrister...choose to just not play him on principle lol. I forget how he built his list but knowing this individual cheating is a possibility.

Keep in mind I have zero games with 7th necrons but with 6th I remember having some difficult games up against heavy flyrant and Lords of Change.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Well the loss of skyfire also hurts when combating FMCs also don't forget

While that's true, were our Night Scythes really winning the game against FMCs? Against most, you get one good round of shooting before they get out of your firing arc and/or kill the Scythe. Losing Skyfire hurts, but we weren't known for being an army that dominated the skies anyway. At least, not since the good(?) old days of 6th with 7 Night Scythes in a list.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Not sure I'm happy that a Bloodthirster is more likely than not to make it into combat against my army.

Any BT that makes it into combat with your army probably isn't flying, so Skyfire won't help anyway. They have to be on the ground to charge, any Chaos player who puts their BT into Swooping mode voluntarily is either desperate to keep him alive or doing it wrong.

In my experience, 3 or 4 flyrants are not a threat until they land. They simply can't chew thru our units with their shooting because we have armour saves AND RP saves against them. Control the ground and let them flutter around. Prepare to light them up when they land.

Okay, at least I'm not the only one. I keep seeing comments everywhere (not just here) that talk about lack of Skyfire both pre and post FAQ. Even with the new DftS book, we have a variety of more threats, but nothing that we need or address, or would care to do anything about.

Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one, but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:

Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary

I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!

 BossJakadakk wrote:
Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one,

Spoiler:

but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:

Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary

I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!

The general tactics thread is typically not the best place to post lists.
You really would be better starting a new thread rather than jumping in the middle of a topic with something unrelated.
I might even suggest posting on the army list board instead.

Being said, Deathmarks still have their role. If you know you're going to be facing MCs/GCs/drop pods, they can be worth taking.

If you're going to be taking Lychguard, it's usually best to have some role in mind for them. Something more than bodyguards for an Overlord, anyway.

 skoffs wrote:

 BossJakadakk wrote:
Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one,

Spoiler:

but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:

Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary

I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!

The general tactics thread is typically not the best place to post lists.
You really would be better starting a new thread rather than jumping in the middle of a topic with something unrelated.
I might even suggest posting on the army list board instead.

Being said, Deathmarks still have their role. If you know you're going to be facing MCs/GCs/drop pods, they can be worth taking.

If you're going to be taking Lychguard, it's usually best to have some role in mind for them. Something more than bodyguards for an Overlord, anyway.

Ah, sorry. I haven't made a list yet, that's just what I'm getting in the lot, but I'll write a quick one and do that for sure, thanks

 BossJakadakk wrote:
Hi guys! I figure this would be a good thread to start in instead of making a brand new one, but I just acquired what basically amounts to a starter Decurion (I think). It's got:

Overlord w/ Scythe
50 warriors
3 tomb blades w/ gauss
5 lychguard w/ sword and board
5 immortals w/ gauss
10 death marks for the auxiliary

I'm going to start playing it at the 1000 point mark to get used to it before I start adding anything, but I was wondering how you guys feel about death marks in general. Also, considering my LGS is going to be using DFTS, is there viability in running an ADL with necrons? My initial thought is to put the overlord in the unit of lychguard, but could there be something better? This is going to be my first experience with necrons, as I haven't played with or against them before, so any tips are greatly appreciated!

Dang that's a lot of Warriors. But honestly, in a Decurion they're almost too durable against most armies for being only 13 points.

Deathmarks are fine. They're not amazing against everything, but they're ok. They excel against Drop Pods, and they provide a decent punch against high Tough units by putting out a lot of bullets. Their main use other than that is to just Deep Strike around the board, getting map pressure and putting medium fire on multiple targets.

5 Lychguard with one IC isn't going to be much but a fire magnet, honestly. Put em in a Scythe and they get a bit better, though, since you can put them somewhere on the board as a hard point that requires response. Don't walk them by any means.

Aegis Line really depends. By itself, it's relatively unnecessary. We don't want to camp in our DZ, we like moving into the midfield. But, if your meta is rotten with Flyers, maybe getting that Interceptor Skyfire is a good idea. Overlords are BS5, so they control it really well, and you can do a lot worse than a camping unit of Warriors and an Overlord holding down a point. But, if you're playing Decurion as you say, then you can't bring one.

Long time lurker, first time poster, small handful of games under my belt.

I'm curious as to what other players are doing with their...

...Decurion Tomb Blades. Min squads of 3, better'ish damage potential with beamers vs. gauss jink shooting? Or do you mostly always go with gauss. (Tesla Blades hold little to no interest right now) Or combine Blade squads to something bigger with gauss?

...Harvest Spyder. Stock? In your experience do they last long enough to spend the extra points on a Prism or Beamer.

Lastly has anyone ever used a Necron Allied Detachment? From what I understand, and I'm certain I'll be told differently if I'm wrong, ITC tournament rules allow for same faction AD's. Idea is to bring in another IC (yes with an 85 point Immortals tax) to add to a Veiled Overlord/Lychguard unit. Thinking of a Lord (Obyron maybe) with at least a warscythe and other mix-and-match item goodness with the Overlord. Obviously not a Royal Court deathstar, but wondering if a 5-man ObSec unit and IC totaling around the 150-210 point mark is worth it instead of additional Blades, transport Scythes, etc.

Can't speak for Everyone, but for myself -

Tomb Blades: Typically run 2x 3 (Gauss, Scopes, Shields), usually just to go objective grabbing/cause general nuisance.
Sometimes I like to give one of them a Beamer, just so I have some options.
But yeah, no Tesla anymore.

Spyder: Typically stock, but if you know you're going to be facing a lot of witchfire or hordes, the Gloom P. or Beamer's not a bad idea.

Necrons allied with Necrons: I dunno ... just feels ThatGuy-ish.
I wouldn't do it, myself, but if the tournament you're playing in allows it, anyone with a Veil + Immortals wouldn't be a bad idea for taking Objectives. (Cryptek w/ Veil & Chrono + 5x Immortals = 200 points of "go on, I dare you to waste your shots").
For Deathstar considerations, definitely Orikan to add to a Lychguard ball with your Decurion combat equipped Warlord w/ Veil. Obyron isn't a bad second choice for movement versatility, but if you add both, you might as well just replace the Allied Immortals with an Overlord and go the Royal Court route.

Deathmarks are fine. They're not amazing against everything, but they're ok. They excel against Drop Pods, and they provide a decent punch against high Tough units by putting out a lot of bullets. Their main use other than that is to just Deep Strike around the board, getting map pressure and putting medium fire on multiple targets.
Can someone explain To me how deathmarks work against drop pods?

As for what units to take this is my usual list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690185.page#8640697

Depending on my mood I'll drop two warriors and change the immortals to dispersion shields and power weapons. As for adding an allied command structure, it's done a fair amount to get forge world units into the army, but our strength isn't really our HQ, and two veils is less useful than one would think, since it keeps our HQ out of CC which is really the only area they don't suck in. Maybe if you were doing a royal court deep striking gun line where you had six or seven staffs of light, deep struck in on turn two, veiled on turn three and then veiled again on turn 4.

As for how deathmarks work against drop pods, they can counter deep strike on the opponents turn, which means they will catch the drop pod unit out in the open and before they can put up any buffs like invis or what not. They wound on a 2+ on the turn they deep strike in, and have rapid fire sniper rifles, so a 6 to wound is always ap 2. So if you scatter well it's possible for them to hit way above their weight and drop units like a librarius conclave before they have a chance to be a problem. Add a destroyer lord in to give them PE to add to their kick. The issue with them is they are fantastic on the turn they arrive, but are middling to poor afterwards. So they are seen as a gamble.

Luckily they're not break the bank expensive, and if you add the Destroyer Lord to them you don't have to worry so much about retaliation the next turn as your opponent will be too concerned with the borderline monstrous creature barreling down at his hopefully severely injured unit that he may forget all about them, letting your Deathmarks slink off to somewhere more safe to take pot shot at things for the rest of the game.

So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.

My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?

 Grimgold wrote:
So got a great deal on a Obelisk, and realized I've never seen one played, I couldn't even find a bat rep with one. On paper it seems decent, suitable for a softer list than my usual cult and harvest setup. It's able to put out an average of 15 to 20 S7 AP - hits a round (could be a lot more if your dice are hot), with a small chance of dropping nearby flyers, skimmers, and the like. Seems tailor made to deal with SM transport spam, and it's the only non-forge world option we have for dealing with flyers.

My question is, has anyone actually used it in a game, if so how was it?

The problem is its guns are on fixed arcs since they can't move so you have a hard time actually firing all 4 guns at once because that all have to be a separate targets in 4 separate arcs.