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My friend is a Blood Angels player and is using the Angel's Fury Spearhead Formation. Within that Formation it says that a unit that deep strikes does not scatter and can charge first turn if it arrives within 12" of two models that have a teleport homer. The question is this: Can the Teleport Homer be used while the Tactical squad is on board the Stormraven or does the the Tactical Squad have to be on the table in order for this to work? And the other question is that he is trying to do this with Dreadnoughts on Drop Pods so that his Furioso Dreadnoughts can assault when they come in, is Drop Pods coming in considered Deep Strike Reserve since the the Augur Triangulation rule starts out: "Any unit with the Blood Angels Faction that arrives from Deep Strike Reserve..."?

He is correct on both accounts. Search up the last time came this came up.

Essentially, normally teleport homers only work on ground, but this special rule gives no limitation of them having to be on ground. Models inside of drop pods are still arriving from deep strike reserves, and still get to charge.

Under vehicle rules (I think embarking): If you need to measure to an embarked unit, use the hull of the vehicle.

Per Drop Pod rules, the Pod and its contents start in DS Reserve. Since all that is required is to be coming in from Deep Strike Reserves (and not necessarily Deep Striking), it works.

So the Tactical Marines can stay safe inside the Stormraven while he places his drop pods exactly where he wants? Something just seems off about that especially when the rules say that the Teleport Homer has to be deployed on the battlefield and I just would of never considered when a unit is in a transport for it to be deploying on the battlefield especially on a zooming flyer. It seems like a formation that will get used and abused quite often then.

Nothing about the special rule says it has to be on the ground. It isn't very abuseable under 2000 points. Can't fit enough awesome stuff in. But, when you start getting to 2500, things get silly.

He has fit it into a 2,000 point list with 3 Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods, a Callidus Assassin along with another HQ and some Scouts

Dreadnoughts are fairly easy to pop, and he's only charging with 2 on the first turn. Krak them up.

It's doable, however you are looking at a minimum of 1730 before adding any non-mandatory options, so you only have 270 points worth of upgrades across the whole army.

He said that he got the formation in at 1180 and then added everything else on top of it. I told him that he has to win in the first couple turns, otherwise that formation is toast.

Envihon, the 1730 includes the base cost of the formation, the assassin, 3 dreads with Pods, an HQ, and 2 scout squads.

The minimum for the formation is 1050.

I got that after I had posted. That is a substantial amount in points and I am wondering how well it will do at 2k. Half your army in base cost is a lot.

This also seems like an unintentional oversight on GW's part. I won't be surprised if this get FAQ'ed.

The rule referenced is possibly misleading. as it states "if you need" which implies you need permission in an item special rule to use it while embarked.

as it is written it also allows you to fire any LoS ignoring weapons at your friends embarked models and hit them since it says if you need to measure...to/from so it also gives permission to measure to embarked units.

blaktoof wrote:
The rule referenced is possibly misleading. as it states "if you need" which implies you need permission in an item special rule to use it while embarked.

as it is written it also allows you to fire any LoS ignoring weapons at your friends embarked models and hit them since it says if you need to measure...to/from so it also gives permission to measure to embarked units.

As has been the case the last few days, wrong again. You'be been given permission to measure ranges from the hull for anything the squad can do that does not have the restriction of not working in vehicles.

Psychic powers and transport rules say that they can't target units inside of vehicles, which is why you are wrong. Again.

greytalon666 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rule referenced is possibly misleading. as it states "if you need" which implies you need permission in an item special rule to use it while embarked.

as it is written it also allows you to fire any LoS ignoring weapons at your friends embarked models and hit them since it says if you need to measure...to/from so it also gives permission to measure to embarked units.

As has been the case the last few days, wrong again. You'be been given permission to measure ranges from the hull for anything the squad can do that does not have the restriction of not working in vehicles.

Psychic powers and transport rules say that they can't target units inside of vehicles, which is why you are wrong. Again.

But you have to measure to a specific model, not the unit.

If you have permission to measure to the unit, then you have to have permission to measure to a model, since it ius part of the unit. Instead of hashing this out over another ten pages, use that handy search function and go read those ten pages

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rule referenced is possibly misleading. as it states "if you need" which implies you need permission in an item special rule to use it while embarked.

as it is written it also allows you to fire any LoS ignoring weapons at your friends embarked models and hit them since it says if you need to measure...to/from so it also gives permission to measure to embarked units.

As has been the case the last few days, wrong again. You'be been given permission to measure ranges from the hull for anything the squad can do that does not have the restriction of not working in vehicles.

Psychic powers and transport rules say that they can't target units inside of vehicles, which is why you are wrong. Again.

But you have to measure to a specific model, not the unit.

there's nothing in the rules for transport vehicles that states you may not target embarked models.

there is something that states you may not target psychic powers on embarked models.

I suggest you actually quote rules since you often seem to say things you claim are rules but are not.

the rule you are using to 'use' a teleport homer from inside a stormraven:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

as you clearly can see there is nothing stating its only for the embarked squad to be allowed to us, it states if you need to measure a range involving the embarked unit you can measure it to or from the hull. Measuring distance to target an unit for shooting is a measurement involving the unit. So you are incorrect when you state 'You'be been given permission to measure ranges from the hull for anything the squad can do that does not have the restriction of not working in vehicles. ' as actually you have been given permission to measure to or from the squad for anything involving the embarked unit. That means anything that would affect the unit, or anything the unit would do.

if you choose to target an embarked unit, which there is no rule against, you are permitted to measure a range involving the unit by measuring to the hull of a vehicle by the same rule some people claim allows you to use teleport homers etc while embarked.

Normally you won't have an effect because you will not have LoS to the model, however if you have a weapon that ignores LoS you bypass that problem and can resolve a shooting attack following the RaW against an embarked model if you believe the above quote is in reference to permission to measure to/from embarked units and not a rules quote telling you how to do so if you are specifically allowed in the entry for an item[teleport homer does not specifically state you may use while embarked]

blaktoof wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rule referenced is possibly misleading. as it states "if you need" which implies you need permission in an item special rule to use it while embarked.

as it is written it also allows you to fire any LoS ignoring weapons at your friends embarked models and hit them since it says if you need to measure...to/from so it also gives permission to measure to embarked units.

As has been the case the last few days, wrong again. You'be been given permission to measure ranges from the hull for anything the squad can do that does not have the restriction of not working in vehicles.

Psychic powers and transport rules say that they can't target units inside of vehicles, which is why you are wrong. Again.

But you have to measure to a specific model, not the unit.

there's nothing in the rules for transport vehicles that states you may not target embarked models.

there is something that states you may not target psychic powers on embarked models.

I suggest you actually quote rules since you often seem to say things you claim are rules but are not.

the rule you are using to 'use' a teleport homer from inside a stormraven:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

as you clearly can see there is nothing stating its only for the embarked squad to be allowed to us, it states if you need to measure a range involving the embarked unit you can measure it to or from the hull. Measuring distance to target an unit for shooting is a measurement involving the unit. So you are incorrect when you state 'You'be been given permission to measure ranges from the hull for anything the squad can do that does not have the restriction of not working in vehicles. ' as actually you have been given permission to measure to or from the squad for anything involving the embarked unit. That means anything that would affect the unit, or anything the unit would do.

if you choose to target an embarked unit, which there is no rule against, you are permitted to measure a range involving the unit by measuring to the hull of a vehicle by the same rule some people claim allows you to use teleport homers etc while embarked.

Normally you won't have an effect because you will not have LoS to the model, however if you have a weapon that ignores LoS you bypass that problem and can resolve a shooting attack following the RaW against an embarked model if you believe the above quote is in reference to permission to measure to/from embarked units and not a rules quote telling you how to do so if you are specifically allowed in the entry for an item[teleport homer does not specifically state you may use while embarked]

You are right, raw if you can ignore los you can shoot units in vehicles. There is no restriction of it in the brb or FAQ. The teleport homer, however, has no restriction on it limiting it to ground use only. Please show me where in its special rule it says that... That's right, it doesn't, and despite your several pages arguing to the contrary the last time this came up, you never once showed where this restriction exists.

I suggested that the quote, which I used above, from the embarked units section where it states "if you need to.." could have intended that they are rules for how to measure to/from an embarked unit if given permission.

I then stated in the past that there were units, which I referenced, that had rules that were specifically allowed to be used while embarked.

I pointed out the silly things that happen when people decide to play with a rule as permission to do something, instead of as an explanation of how to do something if you had permission.

IE your embarked units can be killed by nova powers, etc.

I then agreed that according to the RAW it appears you can measure from a stormraven with a teleport homer. Since your ability to recall is so great you can mention those things as well if you want to discuss what I discussed. I presented a RAI arguement, and agreed RAW it appears you can do so.

Just as it appears that you can by RAW wipe out most embarked units with a few psychic screams from hive tyrants on the ground, cleansing flames, the ridiculously large area nova power from BL supplement, etc.

or you can agree with your opponent that this is silly and use the RAI that I suggested. I recall some other people suggesting that RAI it was more reasonable as well.

You can't psychic scream transported units, no los. You could do the logical thing, which would be you can't hit units inside of vehicles with anything because the vehicle is in the way. The rule for the special use of the teleport homers in this special rule has no special restrictions on the homers use. I'd say that is both raw and rai... If they intended it to be a different way, they would've written the rule a different way.

psychic scream does not require LoS, as it is a nova power.

A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units (including Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures) within the psychic power’s maximum range, regardless of line of sight, being locked in combat, intervening models/ terrain and so on.

blaktoof wrote:
psychic scream does not require LoS, as it is a nova power.

A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units (including Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures) within the psychic power’s maximum range, regardless of line of sight, being locked in combat, intervening models/ terrain and so on.

There's a difference between targeting/hitting and allowance to allocate wounds.
Novas have the former, not the latter.

yes but using the same rules statement, barrages and anything with ignores line of sight does not work.

as such is silly, every TO I have ever heard rules you do not need LoS to allocate wounds with weapons that have the 'ignores line of sight' rule because otherwise the rule does absolutely nothing.

have you ever played where models/weapons with ignore line of sight were not allowed to allocate wounds to models they did not have line of sight to?

blaktoof wrote:
have you ever played where models/weapons with ignore line of sight were not allowed to allocate wounds to models they did not have line of sight to?

Yes. It wasn't a blanket thing, but it did happen.
And that's no justification for making the statement you did. You are making an argument that applying the RAW in one way leads to a silly scenario - that's prohibited if you actually follow the RAW instead of making things up.

It's blaktoof, that's what he does.

But seriously, blaktooth, if you'd just post your quotes from the books instead of going "I iz Ork! Puny 'umies don't know nuthin'!" You'd have a lot more of a chance of these rules "debates" (I use debate loosely) doing something more than going in a "raw-nuuh-raw-nuuhrai-raw" circle.

its prohibited by the RAW in the same way a barrage weappon is prohibited to cause wounds to models outside of its LoS, or an impaler cannon, or a smart missile system.

which is silly.

Despite your event of having it ruled that way I have never been to a tournament or even a friendly game where someone felt a Smart Missile System or Impaler cannon with the ignores line of sight rule could not wound models outside of its line of sight.

You are correct that according to the RAW those weapons do not work, however no one plays that way as it is silly to have weapons that can target something out of line of sight due to a special rule they have, and not be able to affect it in any way after targeting.

and I did not make something up, that's an untruth.

its unfortunate you want to apply a rule one way but think it's silly to apply it the other, when it obviously and clearly states "to/from" showing in the RAW that if it is permission to measure a range involved an embarked unit, it is allowed to be measure to or from. Not just from.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

greytalon666 wrote:
It's blaktoof, that's what he does. He tries breaking his arguments down for us simple minded folk, like this:

This line is the first part of my argument

(Notice the space between the next sentence, he's trying to slow down our reading so we have time to "grasp" this *simple* concept)

This line is second

And so on

And so forth.


But seriously, blaktooth, if you'd just post your quotes from the books instead of going "I iz Ork! Puny 'umies don't know nuthin'!" You'd have a lot more of a chance of these rules "debates" (I use debate loosely) doing something more than going in a "raw-nuuh-raw-nuuhrai-raw" circle.

this thread is 1 page long, I have quoted the rulebook verbatim twice. It is hard to believe you have not noticed that considering you are replying to my comments supposedly.

Seriously - RULE #1!

And the tenets of this sub-forum!

All NOT optional!

blaktoof wrote:
its prohibited by the RAW in the same way a barrage weappon is prohibited to cause wounds to models outside of its LoS, or an impaler cannon, or a smart missile system.

which is silly.

Despite your event of having it ruled that way I have never been to a tournament or even a friendly game where someone felt a Smart Missile System or Impaler cannon with the ignores line of sight rule could not wound models outside of its line of sight.

That's not what you asked, nor what I said. Stop moving the goalposts.

You are correct that according to the RAW those weapons do not work, however no one plays that way as it is silly to have weapons that can target something out of line of sight due to a special rule they have, and not be able to affect it in any way after targeting.

and I did not make something up, that's an untruth.

its unfortunate you want to apply a rule one way but think it's silly to apply it the other, when it obviously and clearly states "to/from" showing in the RAW that if it is permission to measure a range involved an embarked unit, it is allowed to be measure to or from. Not just from.

I'm applying both rules exactly as they're written. I'm not making up the idea of "Well, it's silly so we'll let one of them happen but not the other." That would be you.
Now - do you have a RAW reason a Teleport Homer cannot be used from inside a Stormraven? Your original post is this:

blaktoof wrote:
The rule referenced is possibly misleading. as it states "if you need" which implies you need permission in an item special rule to use it while embarked.

as it is written it also allows you to fire any LoS ignoring weapons at your friends embarked models and hit them since it says if you need to measure...to/from so it also gives permission to measure to embarked units.

Someone remarked (correctly) that your first sentence is incorrect. While your second sentence is correct, as written, the rules also say that no wounds would be allocated. So - again, as written - your statement of

blaktoof wrote:
Normally you won't have an effect because you will not have LoS to the model, however if you have a weapon that ignores LoS you bypass that problem and can resolve a shooting attack following the RaW against an embarked model if you believe the above quote is in reference to permission to measure to/from embarked units and not a rules quote telling you how to do so if you are specifically allowed in the entry for an item[teleport homer does not specifically state you may use while embarked]

is incorrect as you would not be able to allocate wounds, and therefore the embarked unit is safe.

blaktoof wrote:
IE your embarked units can be killed by nova powers, etc.

Also incorrect.

so side stepping the whole discussion on the rule that sllows models to ignore line of sight as you have above, your comments have no actual point.

also that is what you stated.

There's a difference between targeting/hitting and allowance to allocate wounds.
Novas have the former, not the latter.

here you state that novas, a weapon/attack that has the 'ignores line of sight' rule. although you admit they are allowed to target you claim because of the RAW they cannot allocate wounds.

which as I stated, is true. You are correct, and no one plays that way anywhere because then it makes SmS and what not useless, and the ignores line of sight rule useless.

as such if people play that those rules are not useless, the rule I quoted and you agree is a rule means you can target models inside an embarked vehicle, and allocate wounds to them.

RAW targeting is allowed, RAI and how everyone players you can allocate wounds to models outside of LoS with weapons that have the ignores line of sight/barrage rule. correct? or do you think most people/no one plays that barrages, impaler cannons, SMS, etc cannot allocate wounds to models they cannot see despite being allowed to fire at models they cannot see?

The point of the above, I know you already know, but do not wish to discuss.

RAI, as I pointed out "need to" in regards to the rule for embarked models could RAI mean that if you are given permssion, ie 'I am told I can use this while embarked or target embarked models therefore I need to measure to an embarked unit how do I do so, oh here is the rule under embarked models in the transport section'. RAW it of course does not state this, as I and you have both pointed out as well as other people. However RAW what it states means you can do other things like target embarked models, given how targetting works for weapons that ignore LoS and that most people play RAI over RAW for weapons that ignore LoS allowing them to actually function this creates the silly situation of being able to kill embarked models. Strangely this actually existed in 2nd edition where eldar could Mind War Dreadnaut pilots to kill the pilot without hurting the dread itself on the vehicle damage table, regardless of that sidenote the point is the RAI discussion versus the RAW discussion often has merit as one leads to playing a game with less 'silly situations' ie an embarked unit gets wiped out by 2 cleansing flames despite it disallowing things like teleport homers working in transports'. It is also the basis of things like barrages, impaler cannons, novas, SmS, actually functioning as designed as opposed to the RAW that they can target units outside of line of sight but despite them having ignores lines of sight as a rule cannot put wounds on said units.

Pretty certain the forums allow for discussion of RAI as viable forms of rules discussion, and in many cases they are more viable to actually be used when playing then the actual rules as written, and end up being how most people play the game. Can anyone list a major tournament that rule barrages, sms, impaler cannons, novas, etc could not wound models outside of LoS?

blaktoof wrote:
so side stepping the whole discussion on the rule that sllows models to ignore line of sight as you have above, your comments have no actual point.

Aside from the fact that your statements were wrong, you're correct - I didn't have a point.
Fortunately, that's the reason I posted.

which as I stated, is true. You are correct, and no one plays that way anywhere because then it makes SmS and what not useless, and the ignores line of sight rule useless.

And exactly how is that relevant to the RAW?

as such if people play that those rules are not useless, the rule I quoted and you agree is a rule means you can target models inside an embarked vehicle, and allocate wounds to them.

RAW targeting is allowed, RAI and how everyone players you can allocate wounds to models outside of LoS with weapons that have the ignores line of sight/barrage rule. correct? or do you think most people/no one plays that barrages, impaler cannons, SMS, etc cannot allocate wounds to models they cannot see despite being allowed to fire at models they cannot see?

I think that people bring "logic" into a RAI discussion and note that there's a difference between shooting at something in the open and attempting to shoot at something that's embarked.

The point of the above, I know you already know, but do not wish to discuss.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss it.

RAI, as I pointed out "need to" in regards to the rule for embarked models could RAI mean that if you are given permssion, ie 'I am told I can use this while embarked or target embarked models therefore I need to measure to an embarked unit how do I do so, oh here is the rule under embarked models in the transport section'.

Please show me one ability that states this.

RAW it of course does not state this, as I and you have both pointed out as well as other people. However RAW what it states means you can do other things like target embarked models, given how targetting works for weapons that ignore LoS and that most people play RAI over RAW for weapons that ignore LoS allowing them to actually function this creates the silly situation of being able to kill embarked models.

If you're already bringing RAI into it, then why not accept that RAI is that you cannot target units inside vehicles?

the point is the RAI discussion versus the RAW discussion often has merit as one leads to playing a game with less 'silly situations' ie an embarked unit gets wiped out by 2 cleansing flames despite it disallowing things like teleport homers working in transports'. It is also the basis of things like barrages, impaler cannons, novas, SmS, actually functioning as designed as opposed to the RAW that they can target units outside of line of sight but despite them having ignores lines of sight as a rule cannot put wounds on said units.

I'm trying to work out why teleport homers working inside vehicles is "silly" and why allowing that automatically allows units inside vehicles to be shot - again, if you're arguing both from a RAI standpoint.

Pretty certain the forums allow for discussion of RAI as viable forms of rules discussion, and in many cases they are more viable to actually be used when playing then the actual rules as written, and end up being how most people play the game. Can anyone list a major tournament that rule barrages, sms, impaler cannons, novas, etc could not wound models outside of LoS?

Leading question is leading. Perhaps you understand that allowing those things to allocate wounds out of LoS does not require that they are able to shoot units inside vehicles?