Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
CptJake wrote: Almost every outbreak in the US is attributable to folks coming in from outside the US, and generally non-US citizens.
You keep saying this, but haven't offered any proof confirming that it is true.
None of your CDC stuff didn't prove that disease ridden-immigrants are coming to the US to infect all the granola-crunchers' children. Measles is highly contagious and worst of all, you are infectious before you show symptoms which makes it even easier to spread. Twenty five people returning home carrying measles can infect a large number of people in areas where herd immunity is low, which have so far been what we are seeing. Also, you can still becoming infected with measles even if you have been vaccinated.
Xenophobia won't fix this problem.
When this 'large number of people' amounts to more than a couple hundred cases a year perhaps you can begin to make an argument it is worth expending a ton more tax payer dollars and making it a federal issue.
At this point, it isn't. Not at all.
All the CDC stuff did show the majority of the few cases in the US (down from millions of cases a year (pre-1963 when vaccinations became available) to between 1-5 hundred or so a year with 2014 being the only year since 2000 to hit well above 200 with most years under 100) do originate outside the US.
Explain how and why you view this as a Federal issue that deserves giving the Federal gov't the responsibility to remove children from families as has been advocated here.
The CDC states (I think accurately) that for the United States to ever get rid of measles completely: "The first step is to eliminate measles from each country and region of the world. Once this happens, there will be no place from which measles can spread." Since almost every outbreak in the last decade originated overseas, they have a point. Asking for the federal government to step in and take people's kids does not address the issue of how measles and similar outbreaks start in the US. Over 90% (the Healthy People 2020 goal) of our folks are vaccinated. In some states the number is over 95% (though several states, notably Colorado, Ohio, and West Virginia at 86%, fall under the 90% as of 2013.) There just isn't a need for more federal programs to address this.
I just do not see every problem as a federal problem. Very clearly, that is laugh worthy to many of you. But Big Solutions tend to be expensive, and are very often not worth the cost. Perhaps more importantly, there are supposed to be limits on federal power/authority. Again, many of you have made it quite clear you find that concept humorous. I get that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 02:21:55
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
No, no. Don't drop a BSABSVR and change the topic. If you're going to say that the Democratic party is equally, if not more, culpable, I feel you you need to show some prominent Democrats who have flirted with the anti-vaxxer movement, or at least that have decreed that wiping your ass and then making a pizza without washing your hands first should be a protected right.
At some point there has been a growing contingent of GOP lawmakers who have essentially declared war on the role of government as it applies to public health, and hell, just common sense. When they say they want to get rid of the EPA, at least I can sort of see the motive here in terms of campaign donations for the big companies that would like to pump secret earthquake fluid into our wellwater. Unless there is some big E Coli lobby I don't know about, though, I just don't even get where this is going. It's some real what are you rebelling against, "what have you got" type shenanigans.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 02:29:36
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
No, no. Don't drop a BSABSVR and change the topic. If you're going to say that the Democratic party is equally, if not more, culpable, I feel you you need to show some prominent Democrats who have flirted with the anti-vaxxer movement, or at least that have decreed that wiping your ass and then making a pizza without washing your hands first should be a protected right.
By the way, the third link you posted was updated to add that when Obama said "this person", he was pointing at the person who asked the question. You saw your update to Vox clarified this, right?
I will grant you Hillary, however, that was pretty bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 03:03:03
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
So cases of them saying "maybe there is a link" dating back to before the study was pulled and discredited and not a single case of "parents shouldn't have to vaccinate"?
And no Democrats calling for ass hand pizza tossing.
By the way, the third link you posted was updated to add that when Obama said "this person", he was pointing at the person who asked the question. You saw your update to Vox clarified this, right?
.
Maybe I'm not hearing it right, or I'm totally missing the boat. Here's the vid:
Seems like its a description of a “skyrocketing autism rate” is a reference to suspicions “that it’s connected to vaccines and triggers”... which
he also says that "the science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it.”
Clearly "flirting" with the anti-vaxxer crowd to me.
Looks like we have some damage control here between Voxers and LittleGreenFootball.
S.M.: I think it taps into the organic natural movement in a lot of ways.
I talked to a public health official and asked him what’s the best way to anticipate where there might be higher than normal rates of vaccine noncompliance, and he said take a map and put a pin wherever there’s a Whole Foods. I sort of laughed, and he said, “No, really, I’m not joking.” It’s those communities with the Prius driving, composting, organic food-eating people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 03:36:57
CptJake wrote: When this 'large number of people' amounts to more than a couple hundred cases a year perhaps you can begin to make an argument it is worth expending a ton more tax payer dollars and making it a federal issue.
At this point, it isn't. Not at all.
First of all, your projecting your distaste for all things Federal on me, even though I haven't said a single word about having the Feds do anything. The only thing I've taken exception to is the "disease-ridden immigrants" bull gak you've been going on about.
All the CDC stuff did show the majority of the few cases in the US (down from millions of cases a year (pre-1963 when vaccinations became available) to between 1-5 hundred or so a year with 2014 being the only year since 2000 to hit well above 200 with most years under 100) do originate outside the US.
Yes, all cases of measles originate from outside the country because endemic measles in the US has been eliminated. However, as other people have brought during the course of this discussion, measles is not the only preventable disease that is out there and your xenophobic "solution" won't do anything to help fix this problem.
Explain how and why you view this as a Federal issue that deserves giving the Federal gov't the responsibility to remove children from families as has been advocated here.
I never said it was a federal issue. However, the Federal Government isn't going to take kids away and I don't think anyone is actually claiming that is what they want to happen. This needs to be a state-level response and the easiest way to go about it is to drop immunization waivers for state-funded schools. Currently, the only states that don't allow opt-outs (for any reason) are West Virginia and Mississippi. In both of those states, nearly every kindergarten-aged child is immunized. The best thing the Federal Government can do is threaten to withhold funding if states don't make immunizations required for attending public schools and the best thing anyone who cares about this can do is immunize their children and pressure their state leaders to make the change (and vote in someone who will).
The CDC states (I think accurately) that for the United States to ever get rid of measles completely: "The first step is to eliminate measles from each country and region of the world. Once this happens, there will be no place from which measles can spread." Since almost every outbreak in the last decade originated overseas, they have a point. Asking for the federal government to step in and take people's kids does not address the issue of how measles and similar outbreaks start in the US. Over 90% (the Healthy People 2020 goal) of our folks are vaccinated. In some states the number is over 95% (though several states, notably Colorado, Ohio, and West Virginia at 86%, fall under the 90% as of 2013.) There just isn't a need for more federal programs to address this.
Okay, you don't want the Feds to "set up programs" to make immunization a requirement but you want the Feds to implement a plan to keep all people that have not been immunized from entering the country?
I just do not see every problem as a federal problem. Very clearly, that is laugh worthy to many of you. But Big Solutions tend to be expensive, and are very often not worth the cost. Perhaps more importantly, there are supposed to be limits on federal power/authority. Again, many of you have made it quite clear you find that concept humorous. I get that.
Again, you worry about the cost of a national immunization drive and giving the Federal Government too much power... but you don't worry about giving the Federal Government the power to create a massively expensive (and unsustainable) screen to catch any and all people that might be carrying diseases (even though most of those people are US citizens) that people in this country shouldn't have to worry about if they just vaccinated their kids (a luxury that millions upon millions of people around the world wish they had), but yet this "isn't a Federal issue" and we don't need "Big Solutions."
That makes perfect sense.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:30:49
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
This thread has been interesting. I particularly enjoyed d-usas' mspaint diagram. I also quite enjoyed that rather than citizens returning from travel apparently it's the dirty foreigners who spread disease. FMD I do wonder however why people in the US get their knickers in a twist over the feds. Every part of our live is regulated by a governing body, be that local , state or federal, is the difference between the 3 types even noticeable? Personally I don't see the difference and judging by some of the wacky laws states try to bring in it might be better of there was more federal control.
But back to immunisation , It has to be a given that people immunise, if you don't immunise then you are aiming to injure yourself and others, it's like choosing to not wear shoes and complaining when you tread on broken glass. Those "shoes" are there for your protection and will not give your kid god damn fething autism . FMD! I do like the vaccine defence for autism, "no it wasn't my genes that gave my kid autism, it was a vaccine " that is purely tinfoil hat deduction. People will take meds to cure an illness but not to prevent one, kinda makes no sense really, although this is all coming from a smoker
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:03:13
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
Plus, new measles outbreaks may start with a traveller or immigrant coming back infected, but they're allowed to spread at least in part because there are too many people who aren't vaccinated.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that the only people not culpable for the outbreak are a) the unvaccinated kids, especially the one with a medical condition, and b) the immigrant who never had a chance to get vaccinated.
Also, even in the astrononomically unlikely case that there is a chance that a vaccination causes autism, I for one would much rather deal with a live autisitic son o' mine than one who died to a perfectly preventable disease.
On a tangent, I personally blame the rise in " autism" to more and more kids who are ever more slightly quieter, or busier, than the norm to have the label " newly invented autistic disorder X" put on them, then forced to take medicine Y rather than blame it on the more likely cause of parents not controlling their spawn, or you know, not every kid being exactly baseline when it comes to energy levels (or really much of anything else).
Edit: code error
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 10:08:06
We have a culture of medication. Don't feel good, take medicine. Have a headache, take medicine. Can't sleep, take medicine. Think you have a disease because an ad told you, take medicine.
I blame the pharmaceutical companies or, more specifically, their marketing. Too many ads for medicine. Some people go to the doctor just to ask for a prescription to a medicine they saw on TV. Sleep aids are especially prevalent. It gets to the point where some people make it so their body can't sleep without them.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
whembly wrote: Sooo... is this a call for us to start demanding immunizations for all illegal immigrants
No, the third world countries they are fleeing generally have universal healthcare and mandated vaccinations with no opt-outs, so they're covered.
Thats horse poop. Mexico, Guatamala, and Honduras health systems are terrible.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I am watching Black Sunday-1977 movie about terrorists attacking super bowl-38 years ago- and still our elites refuse to face reality
... Does make one wonder quite what he thought Reagan's Star wars defence programme was actually about.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
whembly wrote: Sooo... is this a call for us to start demanding immunizations for all illegal immigrants
No, the third world countries they are fleeing generally have universal healthcare and mandated vaccinations with no opt-outs, so they're covered.
Thats horse poop. Mexico, Guatamala, and Honduras health systems are terrible.
You are moving the goalposts, or if you prefer, giving the answer to a question that was not asked. No one postulated on the general quality of the healthcare systems of Latin America.
That being said, I dug into this some more, and universal healthcare is not as widespread there as I thought. My apologies for repeating something I read without researching it a little, I should know better.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Everyone should be vaccinated. I don't care if they are citizens or not here.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Senator Rand Paul, facing a backlash over his comments that cast doubt on whether he believes vaccines can pose a health risk to children, asserted on Tuesday that he believes vaccinations are indeed safe and that all parents should have their children inoculated.
To prove his point, Mr. Paul invited a reporter with him to watch him get his booster vaccination for Hepatitis A.
“It just annoys me that I’m being characterized as someone who’s against vaccines,” Mr. Paul said as he settled into a chair in an examination room in the Capitol physician’s office.
“There’s 400 headlines now that say ‘Paul says vaccines cause mental disorders,'” he added. “That’s not what I said. I said I’ve heard of people who’ve had vaccines and they see a temporal association and they believe that.”
Speaking on CNBC yesterday, Mr. Paul said he was aware of “many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.”
Mr. Paul clarified on Tuesday that he believed the science was definitive on the matter and that vaccines are not harmful. As a physician himself (he is an ophthalmologist), he said he was irked to see his views characterized otherwise. “I think the science is clear that if you compare the risks of taking a vaccine to the ill effects of taking a vaccine, it’s overwhelming.”
Mr. Paul got the booster on Tuesday because he was vaccinated last year before traveling to Guatemala.
The doctor’s visit was not without its own minor complications. Mr. Paul, who invited a reporter from The New York Times and had a member of his staff with a camera in tow, ran into resistance from the doctor’s staff, who were concerned that their presence in the office to document the vaccination was a privacy violation.
“It’s my privacy,” Mr. Paul assured the staff members.
Interestingly enough, the White House Press Secretary refused multiple times to express support for vaccine mandates, but encourages strongly for everyone to get vaccinations.
Interestingly enough, the White House Press Secretary refused multiple times to express support for vaccine mandates, but encourages strongly for everyone to get vaccinations.
o.O
Politicians... eh?
Politicians: Why take pick one side in a debate when you can pick both sides?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 16:42:21
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
Why is it, in a country obsessed with freedom, that you guys are stuck between choosing two sides of the same coin? Where's the variety? (Your two party system seems so ingrained compared to here)
I am watching Black Sunday-1977 movie about terrorists attacking super bowl-38 years ago- and still our elites refuse to face reality
... Does make one wonder quite what he thought Reagan's Star wars defence programme was actually about.
Seems an odd fellow. Think he's escaped the home.
I will say that Black September is probably one of the best terrorist organisation names in history. Just say it in a slightly gruff METAL GEAR voice and it's perfect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 16:54:52
Medium of Death wrote: Why is it, in a country obsessed with freedom, that you guys are stuck between choosing two sides of the same coin? Where's the variety? (Your two party system seems so ingrained compared to here)
We *could* have more than 2 prominent parties... but, it's extremely hard to "bring them mainstream".
I've wanted to start a GW-fanboi party, where I'll mandate holidays for tournaments and tax write-off galore for the hobby.
I'd even throw in a steak in every wienie bowl to appease the All-Powerful-Wienie.
I am watching Black Sunday-1977 movie about terrorists attacking super bowl-38 years ago- and still our elites refuse to face reality
... Does make one wonder quite what he thought Reagan's Star wars defence programme was actually about.
Seems an odd fellow. Think he's escaped the home.
I will say that Black September is probably one of the best terrorist organisation names in history. Just say it in a slightly gruff METAL GEAR voice and it's perfect.
Newt?
He ran for Presidential Primary and one of his planks was to colonize the moon.
Not that I think anything is wrong with that idea per se... but, he always seems to "shoot for the moon".
I take it the problem is that the amounts of money required to enter the political spectrum at this point are so ridiculous as to be an effective barrier to anything fresh?
Medium of Death wrote: I take it the problem is that the amounts of money required to enter the political spectrum at this point are so ridiculous as to be an effective barrier to anything fresh?
Pretty much... and some states makes it impossible I think. d-usa, if I remember right, tried to participate in a new party in Oklahoma...
At some point we need to stop laughing about this and ask what the feth happened to the Republican party in this country in the last couple of years.
Well, I read an interesting article that the Radical Christian Right had a big part to do with this. The general idea is this....
1. The FEDS (Hiss and Snarl) say it is okay to kill unborn children via abortion.
2. Unborn children should be treated as citizens of the country and should have rights.
3. Only an barbaric and unjust regime would kill its own citizens
4. Therefore the FEDS (Hiss and Snarl) are an illegitmate regime
This slowly morphed overtime to everythign the FEDS do is evil and must be opposed. This radical view then slowly leaked into regular Conservative thoguht and that leads you to today where everythign the FEDS (Hiss and Snarl) do must be evil and illegitimate.
That was this one guys theory anyway. I'll see if I can find a link.
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
whembly wrote: Anyone getting the sense that Rand Paul is trolling is critics here...
No, he's just backing away from some really stupid comments, and pretending he never said them. "Many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines" is pretty clear. Rand Paul is a dishonest gak, but we aren't so there's no point in entertaining the notion on dakka that he said anything other than what he did.
Ultimately, this is kind of a good news story, as the backlash made Paul back pedal to reasonable position - hopefully this sets a precedent and other politicians will be wary before taking an anti-science stand on vaccination.
Interestingly enough, the White House Press Secretary refused multiple times to express support for vaccine mandates, but encourages strongly for everyone to get vaccinations.
How is that interesting? "Everyone should do it but we're not making it mandatory" is a standard and perfectly reasonable position. It's also the position Rand Paul had back-pedalled to.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
whembly wrote: Anyone getting the sense that Rand Paul is trolling is critics here...
No, he's just backing away from some really stupid comments, and pretending he never said them. "Many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines" is pretty clear. Rand Paul is a dishonest gak, but we aren't so there's no point in entertaining the notion on dakka that he said anything other than what he did.
Ultimately, this is kind of a good news story, as the backlash made Paul back pedal to reasonable position - hopefully this sets a precedent and other politicians will be wary before taking an anti-science stand on vaccination.
Yeup... nice backpeddle though eh?
Interestingly enough, the White House Press Secretary refused multiple times to express support for vaccine mandates, but encourages strongly for everyone to get vaccinations.
How is that interesting? "Everyone should do it but we're not making it mandatory" is a standard and perfectly reasonable position. It's also the position Rand Paul had back-pedalled to.
It's interesting because many, include those in this thread, advocated vehemently that it must be mandatory.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: I almost need a thread just for stupid legislation from Oklahoma:
It's interest because many, include those in this thread, advocated vehemently that it must be mandatory.
I sure am. I don't care if Obama or Paul are trying to have it both ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 18:35:29
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The difference is that many of us are arguing that they should be mandatory, and others are pretending that we are saying this is a federal issue.
I'm not saying it should be federally mandated. I think it should be state mandated, but I also think that federal organizations (such as the CDC) are probably the best resource for establishing guidelines regarding the "what vaccines when" questions.
I also think that politicians at any level pandering to anti-vaxxers for personal gain during a significant public health event is very irresponsible.