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But what about the many, many other persecuted ethnic groups throughout the world that have no place to go, and be safe. Is the US morally obligated to ensure they have one?
The answer is "Of course not." because the moral argument rings hollow, and is just a nice way of dressing up foreign policy concerns for the voting public; thereby preventing someone like me from effectively saying "If support for Israel becomes materially inconvenient, then it will be withdrawn."
What often escapes many people (regardless of political persuasion) is that an aggressive Israel has the potential to be a much larger threat to US interests than a group like ISIL*. The US can fight ISIL, very few people care if a few thousand Islamic militants die, but what does the US do if Israel launches an airstrike against Iran? The action would almost certainly spur further militant activity, and I can basically guarantee that Israel would turtle and allow its allies to do the heavy lifting regarding much of its future security.
*This is why many political analysts don't like Netanyahu
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/20 01:47:20
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Jihadin wrote: Believe it was mention on media that Australia has that, mandatory voting.
And have since talked about creating a "breathalizer before voting" law, because drunk voting is that much of a thing after mando voting came out.
I could be wrong on that one, and some of our Aussie friends (if theyre around this thread) can fill us in on the details.
If there is, it isn't being seriously discussed here/hasn't been in the last few years. I mean we have our PM Godwinning parliament question time, so they could well have thrown that out there too, but if they are then no one is really running with it/driving for it. Our system works pretty well from what I can tell, with regards to early voting etc, but then I'm used to our system. If I was used to your system or the UKs or something then I'd probably say the same for them. I do have some bugbears with the preferential system, and people aren't as educated as they should be about how to vote (no, for the thousandth time you don't vote for the senate that way), but otherwise it seems to do a good job.
Hahaha holy gak Ensis is this what you meant? If so you had heard it a bit wrong, but it's still glorious.
Andrew Fraser MP (Image: Daily Telegraph)
Andrew Fraser is no stranger to parliamentary controversy
Politicians in an Australian state could be breathalysed before voting after reports of bad behaviour by MPs.
In the latest incident, New South Wales MP Andrew Fraser resigned from his frontbench role after shoving a female MP after attending a Christmas party.
In September, state police minister Matt Brown resigned after allegedly dancing in his underpants at a drunken party in his parliamentary office.
Several MPs have now backed a proposal to supply breath test kits
Quality stuff chaps
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/20 03:11:38
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
On the mandatory voting, Obama is right on a couple of things and wrong on some others. The biggest point he's wrong on is mandatory voting reducing the important of money - if anything you need more money, because the election is going to be fought out over the disaffected centre of politics, who are more likely to be swayed by information (as they don't have their minds made up already).
What mandatory voting does do is take politics away from the fringes, and towards the centre. Instead of candidates and policy being decided by people who are committed to one party or the other, the true believers of team blue and team red, instead you get candidates needing to appeal to the centre. I'd expect wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage would drop away in election season, instead the appeal would be on primarily economic issues - jobs, welfare and taxes, the stuff that people without ideology tend to worry about.
It'll never happen, of course, for lots of reasons, but it's an interesting issue to raise. I wonder if this is a case of shooting for the moon, in the hope that it will get the ball rolling towards a more moderate kind of electoral reform.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: And have since talked about creating a "breathalizer before voting" law, because drunk voting is that much of a thing after mando voting came out.
I could be wrong on that one, and some of our Aussie friends (if theyre around this thread) can fill us in on the details.
What? I don't even know how that could be a thing that someone made up.
EDIT - Oh, it's that thing about MPs being breathalysed, not voters. That's a silly beat up, a way of embarrassing the other side and making a story about some bad behaviour drag out.
You want to learn about bad behaviour by Australian MPs, look up 'WA liberal chair sniffer'. Seriously.
I read this and thought 'way to fight the stereotype, Illinois politician'. Then I learned it was a Republican, and thought well at least that's a bit of a change.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/20 03:21:46
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
motyak wrote:If there is, it isn't being seriously discussed here/hasn't been in the last few years. I mean we have our PM Godwinning parliament question time, so they could well have thrown that out there too, but if they are then no one is really running with it/driving for it.
.....
Australia MPs 'face breath tests'
Andrew Fraser MP (Image: Daily Telegraph)
Andrew Fraser is no stranger to parliamentary controversy
Politicians in an Australian state could be breathalysed before voting after reports of bad behaviour by MPs.
In the latest incident, New South Wales MP Andrew Fraser resigned from his frontbench role after shoving a female MP after attending a Christmas party.
In September, state police minister Matt Brown resigned after allegedly dancing in his underpants at a drunken party in his parliamentary office.
Several MPs have now backed a proposal to supply breath test kits
Don't look at it as outrageous conduct. Look at it as our esteemed politicians engaged in consistent behaviour. Americans need the comedy channel for this level of antics, we get it broadcast for free by the abc.
sebster wrote:On the mandatory voting, Obama is right on a couple of things and wrong on some others. The biggest point he's wrong on is mandatory voting reducing the important of money - if anything you need more money, because the election is going to be fought out over the disaffected centre of politics, who are more likely to be swayed by information (as they don't have their minds made up already).
I always describe voting here in australia as being forced to choose between a kick in the balls or a punch in the throat. One will hurt more, but the other might kill you. Now if it were up to me, i'd prefer to officially abstain from a process where i have to decide which of the aforementioned is going to be done. The thing is with secret ballots, there's no way to enforce that a legal vote is cast - you can leave the boxes empty, you can put a name of your own choice on the ballot and vote for that. Mandatory voting doesn't guarantee that people will actually cast a vote, it just angers the ones that don't want to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 04:29:27
sebster wrote: On the mandatory voting, Obama is right on a couple of things and wrong on some others. The biggest point he's wrong on is mandatory voting reducing the important of money - if anything you need more money, because the election is going to be fought out over the disaffected centre of politics, who are more likely to be swayed by information (as they don't have their minds made up already).
What mandatory voting does do is take politics away from the fringes, and towards the centre. Instead of candidates and policy being decided by people who are committed to one party or the other, the true believers of team blue and team red, instead you get candidates needing to appeal to the centre. I'd expect wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage would drop away in election season, instead the appeal would be on primarily economic issues - jobs, welfare and taxes, the stuff that people without ideology tend to worry about.
It'll never happen, of course, for lots of reasons, but it's an interesting issue to raise. I wonder if this is a case of shooting for the moon, in the hope that it will get the ball rolling towards a more moderate kind of electoral reform.
I just think it's interesting that it's the left/liberal side (ie, Democrats) is talking about Mandatory Voting as if it's a great idea...
And yet, Voter ID isn't.
Some serious cognitive dissonance there... really.
Isn't it odd that one prominent Democratic politician opines that we need to send folks to camp. All I can hear in my head: <klaxon intercom> CITIZEN: PROCEED TO NEAREST FUN COUNSELOR FOR YOU DAILY ADMINISTERED FUN TIME. ... AND REMEMBER, IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. ... BE SWELL. <\klaxon intercom>
Ensis Ferrae wrote: And have since talked about creating a "breathalizer before voting" law, because drunk voting is that much of a thing after mando voting came out.
I could be wrong on that one, and some of our Aussie friends (if theyre around this thread) can fill us in on the details.
What? I don't even know how that could be a thing that someone made up.
EDIT - Oh, it's that thing about MPs being breathalysed, not voters. That's a silly beat up, a way of embarrassing the other side and making a story about some bad behaviour drag out.
You want to learn about bad behaviour by Australian MPs, look up 'WA liberal chair sniffer'. Seriously.
I read this and thought 'way to fight the stereotype, Illinois politician'. Then I learned it was a Republican, and thought well at least that's a bit of a change.
Hence my favorite saying: all politicians are crooks. The good ones out there haven't been caught yet.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/20 15:30:55
dogma wrote: But what about the many, many other persecuted ethnic groups throughout the world that have no place to go, and be safe. Is the US morally obligated to ensure they have one?
The answer is "Of course not." because the moral argument rings hollow, and is just a nice way of dressing up foreign policy concerns for the voting public; thereby preventing someone like me from effectively saying "If support for Israel becomes materially inconvenient, then it will be withdrawn."
What often escapes many people (regardless of political persuasion) is that an aggressive Israel has the potential to be a much larger threat to US interests than a group like ISIL*. The US can fight ISIL, very few people care if a few thousand Islamic militants die, but what does the US do if Israel launches an airstrike against Iran? The action would almost certainly spur further militant activity, and I can basically guarantee that Israel would turtle and allow its allies to do the heavy lifting regarding much of its future security.
*This is why many political analysts don't like Netanyahu
There's never been an Israeli conflict in which we sent forces to fight alongside them or on their behalf. I don't see that trend ending of they bomb Iran.
dogma wrote: But what about the many, many other persecuted ethnic groups throughout the world that have no place to go, and be safe. Is the US morally obligated to ensure they have one?
The answer is "Of course not." because the moral argument rings hollow, and is just a nice way of dressing up foreign policy concerns for the voting public; thereby preventing someone like me from effectively saying "If support for Israel becomes materially inconvenient, then it will be withdrawn."
What often escapes many people (regardless of political persuasion) is that an aggressive Israel has the potential to be a much larger threat to US interests than a group like ISIL*. The US can fight ISIL, very few people care if a few thousand Islamic militants die, but what does the US do if Israel launches an airstrike against Iran? The action would almost certainly spur further militant activity, and I can basically guarantee that Israel would turtle and allow its allies to do the heavy lifting regarding much of its future security.
*This is why many political analysts don't like Netanyahu
I try to explain this to people and they always rebut with something about the 6 day war which always leaves me ,that was over 50 years ago,it is time to move on. I personally agree that Israel is the worst ally that the US could have in that area (possibly tied for first place with Iran - though I am feeling very excited about Obamas re-approachment of Iran, i just wish he did it years ago when Iran had a new president trying for the same thing) due to the potential for volatility and complicated political outcomes.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
dogma wrote: But what about the many, many other persecuted ethnic groups throughout the world that have no place to go, and be safe. Is the US morally obligated to ensure they have one?
The answer is "Of course not." because the moral argument rings hollow, and is just a nice way of dressing up foreign policy concerns for the voting public; thereby preventing someone like me from effectively saying "If support for Israel becomes materially inconvenient, then it will be withdrawn."
What often escapes many people (regardless of political persuasion) is that an aggressive Israel has the potential to be a much larger threat to US interests than a group like ISIL*. The US can fight ISIL, very few people care if a few thousand Islamic militants die, but what does the US do if Israel launches an airstrike against Iran? The action would almost certainly spur further militant activity, and I can basically guarantee that Israel would turtle and allow its allies to do the heavy lifting regarding much of its future security.
*This is why many political analysts don't like Netanyahu
I try to explain this to people and they always rebut with something about the 6 day war which always leaves me ,that was over 50 years ago,it is time to move on. I personally agree that Israel is the worst ally that the US could have in that area (possibly tied for first place with Iran - though I am feeling very excited about Obamas re-approachment of Iran, i just wish he did it years ago when Iran had a new president trying for the same thing) due to the potential for volatility and complicated political outcomes.
It's about "picking your friends and your battle"... The US, nor any other country, can't be everywhere at once in order to reach that high moral standings.
However, dogma is 100% right... an agressive Israel is NOT in our best interests.
And here's where me & dogma will likely differ... I don't see the Obama administration doing gak about that, as he's seemingly doing his damnedest to piss off Israel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 15:56:20
And here's where me & dogma will likely differ... I don't see the Obama administration doing gak about that, as he's seemingly doing his damnedest to piss off Israel.
We are discussing US policy with respect to Israel, please leave your Obama baggage at the door.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
And here's where me & dogma will likely differ... I don't see the Obama administration doing gak about that, as he's seemingly doing his damnedest to piss off Israel.
We are discussing US policy with respect to Israel, please leave your Obama baggage at the door.
wat?
You do know that our current President of the U. S. of A is none other than President Obama.
The President dictates US international policy.
His baggage is totally germane to such discussion.
You mean North American being he renounce Canadian citizenship.
He knows and we know that one has to a natural born citizen born of the land to have a go at running for POTUS.
Edit
Its amusing but he would have built up one Hell of a Tea Party apparatus and I think he's going to throw it behind whoever wins the Republican nomination
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/22 18:53:53
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
Its a trap. Some Democrat going to say something negative about his citizenship and why he cannot run for President.
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Well, to be fair, Ted Cruz has to do something. His shenanigans since being elected to the Senate have pretty much guaranteed he'll have a very hard time getting reelected. Sure, his actions might play well with the Tea Partiers, but they piss off just about everyone else, as he's pretty much a walking example of why our government doesn't work.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
How many Bills Reid had sitting on his desk when he was Senate leader or something? Reid another example
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Jihadin wrote: Some Democrat going to say something negative about his citizenship and why he cannot run for President.
Cruz is a natural born citizen by way of his mother, no one important on the left is going to chase that issue.
Though less important people on the right may send some jabs towards Palin during the primaries, depending on whether or not she decides to involve herself in them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/23 04:01:40
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Jihadin wrote: You mean North American being he renounce Canadian citizenship.
So he has.
As an American, I apologize to to Canada on behalf of one of our citizens for dropping an anchor baby on your soil, and then acting like a jerk about it when he no longer needed socialized medicine.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Jihadin wrote: Some Democrat going to say something negative about his citizenship and why he cannot run for President.
Cruz is a natural born citizen by way of his mother, no one important on the left is going to chase that issue.
Though less important people on the right may send some jabs towards Palin during the primaries, depending on whether or not she decides to involve herself in them.
Little more on that. His mother have to have had filed (IIRC his mother is American)
FS-545, Certification of Birth (issued by the Department of State prior to November 1, 1990)
DS-1350, Certification of Report of Birth (issued by the Department of State prior to December 31, 2010), and
FS-240, Report of a Birth Abroad of a U.S. Citizen (currently issued by all U.S. embassies and consulates).
Edit
First two is no longer issued now but was issued around the time frame of his birth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/23 12:02:23
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
,that was over 50 years ago,it is time to move on. I personally agree that Israel is the worst ally that the US could have in that area (possibly tied for first place with Iran - though I am feeling very excited about Obamas re-approachment of Iran, i just wish he did it years ago when Iran had a new president trying for the same thing) due to the potential for volatility and complicated political outcomes.
