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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Frazzled wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Concealed Handgun License

Open Carry.

Aka in Texas you can legally conceal carry if you pass a background test, pass a test of the applicable law on legal defensive use etc., and pass a laughably easy shooting test.

The law will be shortly that these persons can also legally Open Carry where permitted.



What's a background check in Texas? Are you a Communist? No? Here's your permit.


1, Are you from California? If yes, what is your permanent residence in the California Quarantine Zone in Travis County (Austin for you yankees)
2. How many firearms do you have? Why so few?
3. have you ever been in shootout at high noon in the middle of town? Did that no good bushwackin snake deserve it?
4. Driver's license of your pickup truck? Dodge or Ford?
5. Sign your mark here.


I joke of course. After watching an Al Jazeera documentary about Texans defending themselves from Mexican drug smugglers, I do respect the Texans. It's tough at those border areas.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Yet the border is more secure is being said

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Jihadin wrote:
Yet the border is more secure is being said


They have to say that. I'm more inclined to trust a foreign media network, not because they're 100% impartial, but because they have no hidden agenda against the USA.

Qatar is your ally.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Who whoa whoa wait a minute now.......I thought Yemen was our ally.....wait.....

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Jihadin wrote:
Who whoa whoa wait a minute now.......I thought Yemen was our ally.....wait.....

^ exactly... doesn't mean much unfortunately.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

Qatar really is your ally. You guys have the 6th fleet, or the 9th fleet there? Or a really expensive naval base.

Point is - America has something there that costs a lot of money


Anyway, why the slurs against Yemen? They've always been a close ally of America. Only South Vietnam has been a better ally than Yemen

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 CptJake wrote:
The big advantage to the OC rule is that if your shirt comes up/jacket opens and someone sees your weapon you cannot be charged with brandishing (and then lose your permit as a result).

If Chipotle does not have a 'No Weapons' sign, yes, you could openly carry there.


My state does not have a brandishing law
And "No Gun" signs do not carry the weight of law (some properties are illegal to carry in though)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/21 22:33:47


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My state does not have a brandishing law
And "No Gun" signs do not carry the weight of law (some properties are illegal to carry in though)


Im not sure, and may be wrong... But I think that most states are like Texas. As Frazz pointed out, having a "No Guns" sign in your window don't mean gak there, unless it has the specific law codes printed on them as well
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My state does not have a brandishing law
And "No Gun" signs do not carry the weight of law (some properties are illegal to carry in though)


Im not sure, and may be wrong... But I think that most states are like Texas. As Frazz pointed out, having a "No Guns" sign in your window don't mean gak there, unless it has the specific law codes printed on them as well


It may not carry the weight of the law (ie you can't be charged with a crime) but isn't a store owner allowed to ask you to leave for any reason?

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My state does not have a brandishing law
And "No Gun" signs do not carry the weight of law (some properties are illegal to carry in though)


Im not sure, and may be wrong... But I think that most states are like Texas. As Frazz pointed out, having a "No Guns" sign in your window don't mean gak there, unless it has the specific law codes printed on them as well


It may not carry the weight of the law (ie you can't be charged with a crime) but isn't a store owner allowed to ask you to leave for any reason?


You can generally be charged with trespassing if you refuse to leave when asked, but not charged with a weapons violation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:


My state does not have a brandishing law


Many do, especially if there is no open carry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/21 23:05:34


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 CptJake wrote:


You can generally be charged with trespassing if you refuse to leave when asked, but not charged with a weapons violation.



I thought so, thanks for the clarification

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Im not sure, and may be wrong... But I think that most states are like Texas. As Frazz pointed out, having a "No Guns" sign in your window don't mean gak there, unless it has the specific law codes printed on them as well

There is no legal provision in Indiana for these signs, so there is no law to cite. Some store owners have tried to display Illinois signs with the Illinois law cited but that has no legal significance here.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Should be trespassing if they bring a gun into a business with a no gun sign.
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

Really, I think any no gun sign should be respected. If someone doesn't want guns in their store, you should not be an donkey-cave, and bring an gun in anyway. If it's congealed, it's not so bad, but otherwise just it's just rude. Some people feel nervous around guns. And it's not something that too hard to do. The chances of you being attacked in the distance from the store to your car are probably like ten billion to one.

Essentially, don't be an donkey-cave.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

The gun discussion might go best elsewhere, methinks

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My state does not have a brandishing law
And "No Gun" signs do not carry the weight of law (some properties are illegal to carry in though)


Im not sure, and may be wrong... But I think that most states are like Texas. As Frazz pointed out, having a "No Guns" sign in your window don't mean gak there, unless it has the specific law codes printed on them as well


Texas has very specific requirements on no gun signs because its a crime to enter if there is one.
Actually unintentional reveal is not a violative in Texas either. The OC thing is a nothing law and it won't keep Fatman and Snowboots from invading the next Chipotle. Many of us think they're actually plants. No one, not even Occam is that stupid.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

Frazz, to quote the late, great George Carlin:
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Then realise half of them are stupider than that."

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

Hope you guys don't mind, but I've decided to take refuge in this thread

In the UK version of this thread, it's me against 6 other people. I need a break.

Just like in the world wars, American help would be appreciated, but I doubt if you guys know anything about UK politics.

To keep this post OT: I think Hilary will win in 2016

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Hope you guys don't mind, but I've decided to take refuge in this thread

In the UK version of this thread, it's me against 6 other people. I need a break.

Just like in the world wars, American help would be appreciated, but I doubt if you guys know anything about UK politics.

To keep this post OT: I think Hilary will win in 2016

Hey there... we'd love ya.

Regarding Hillary... I think you're right. :shrugs: no one is "standing out" in the GOP side of the fence, except for, maybe, Rubio.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






To early to predict the winner for 2016.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 whembly wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Hope you guys don't mind, but I've decided to take refuge in this thread

In the UK version of this thread, it's me against 6 other people. I need a break.

Just like in the world wars, American help would be appreciated, but I doubt if you guys know anything about UK politics.

To keep this post OT: I think Hilary will win in 2016

Hey there... we'd love ya.

Regarding Hillary... I think you're right. :shrugs: no one is "standing out" in the GOP side of the fence, except for, maybe, Rubio.


It's early days still, but Hilary's campaign feels like some coronation procession, as though the gods themselves have willed it.

In any other year, a Republican candidate would consider Hilary running for president as an early Christmas present - she has so much baggage that they could attack, but so far, they've done nothing. Early days, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jihadin wrote:
To early to predict the winner for 2016.


Like I said, I'm a refuge here

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/22 16:43:11


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

You guys hear about the trade bill? Might be interesting to hear the candidates' and possible candidates' opinions on it. Apparently Bernie Sanders has come up against it.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jihadin wrote:
To early to predict the winner for 2016.
I_DO_NOT_LIKE_THAT

Like I said, I'm a refuge here


Your I-31 has not come across my desk for approval

QUote bolo

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/22 18:08:13


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You guys hear about the trade bill? Might be interesting to hear the candidates' and possible candidates' opinions on it. Apparently Bernie Sanders has come up against it.


Bernie Sanders is always against trade deals.

Has he officially said he is going to run yet?

Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Easy E wrote:

Bernie Sanders is always against trade deals.

Has he officially said he is going to run yet?


I heard an interview with him a few days ago. He was still agonizing over the decision, stating it was the hardest political decision he has had to make.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

If Walker becomes the nominee, be prepare for information like this.

Yeesh... Wisconsin's "John/Jane Joe" investigation is horribad.

Wisconsin’s Shame: ‘I Thought It Was a Home Invasion’

"THEY CAME WITH A BATTERING RAM.”

Cindy Archer, one of the lead architects of Wisconsin’s Act 10 — also called the “Wisconsin Budget Repair Bill,” it limited public-employee benefits and altered collective-bargaining rules for public-employee unions — was jolted awake by yelling, loud pounding at the door, and her dogs’ frantic barking. The entire house — the windows and walls — was shaking. She looked outside to see up to a dozen police officers, yelling to open the door. They were carrying a battering ram.

She wasn’t dressed, but she started to run toward the door, her body in full view of the police. Some yelled at her to grab some clothes, others yelled for her to open the door. “I was so afraid,” she says. “I did not know what to do.” She grabbed some clothes, opened the door, and dressed right in front of the police. The dogs were still frantic. “I begged and begged, ‘Please don’t shoot my dogs, please don’t shoot my dogs, just don’t shoot my dogs.’ I couldn’t get them to stop barking, and I couldn’t get them outside quick enough. I saw a gun and barking dogs. I was scared and knew this was a bad mix.”

She got the dogs safely out of the house, just as multiple armed agents rushed inside. Some even barged into the bathroom, where her partner was in the shower. The officer or agent in charge demanded that Cindy sit on the couch, but she wanted to get up and get a cup of coffee. “I told him this was my house and I could do what I wanted.” Wrong thing to say. “This made the agent in charge furious. He towered over me with his finger in my face and yelled like a drill sergeant that I either do it his way or he would handcuff me.”

They wouldn’t let her speak to a lawyer. She looked outside and saw a person who appeared to be a reporter. Someone had tipped him off. The neighbors started to come outside, curious at the commotion, and all the while the police searched her house, making a mess, and — according to Cindy — leaving her “dead mother’s belongings strewn across the basement floor in a most disrespectful way.” Then they left, carrying with them only a cellphone and a laptop.

IT’S A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH.” That was the first thought of “Anne” (not her real name). Someone was pounding at her front door. It was early in the morning — very early — and it was the kind of heavy pounding that meant someone was either fleeing from — or bringing — trouble. “It was so hard. I’d never heard anything like it. I thought someone was dying outside.” She ran to the door, opened it, and then chaos. “People came pouring in. For a second I thought it was a home invasion. It was terrifying. They were yelling and running, into every room in the house. One of the men was in my face, yelling at me over and over and over.”

It was indeed a home invasion, but the people who were pouring in were Wisconsin law-enforcement officers. Armed, uniformed police swarmed into the house. Plainclothes investigators cornered her and her newly awakened family. Soon, state officials were seizing the family’s personal property, including each person’s computer and smartphone, filled with the most intimate family information. Why were the police at Anne’s home? She had no answers. The police were treating them the way they’d seen police treat drug dealers on television. In fact, TV or movies were their only points of reference, because they weren’t criminals. They were law-abiding. They didn’t buy or sell drugs. They weren’t violent. They weren’t a danger to anyone. Yet there were cops — surrounding their house on the outside, swarming the house on the inside. They even taunted the family as if they were mere “perps.”

As if the home invasion, the appropriation of private property, and the verbal abuse weren’t enough, next came ominous warnings. Don’t call your lawyer. Don’t tell anyone about this raid. Not even your mother, your father, or your closest friends. The entire neighborhood could see the police around their house, but they had to remain silent. This was not the “right to remain silent” as uttered by every cop on every legal drama on television — the right against self-incrimination. They couldn’t mount a public defense if they wanted — or even offer an explanation to family and friends. Yet no one in this family was a “perp.”

Instead, like Cindy, they were American citizens guilty of nothing more than exercising their First Amendment rights to support Act 10 and other conservative causes in Wisconsin. Sitting there shocked and terrified, this citizen — who is still too intimidated to speak on the record — kept thinking, “Is this America?” “THEY FOLLOWED ME TO MY KIDS’ ROOMS.”

For the family of “Rachel” (not her real name), the ordeal began before dawn — with the same loud, insistent knocking. Still in her pajamas, Rachel answered the door and saw uniformed police, poised to enter her home. When Rachel asked to wake her children herself, the officer insisted on walking into their rooms. The kids woke to an armed officer, standing near their beds.

The entire family was herded into one room, and there they watched as the police carried off their personal possessions, including items that had nothing to do with the subject of the search warrant — even her daughter’s computer. And, yes, there were the warnings. Don’t call your lawyer. Don’t talk to anyone about this. Don’t tell your friends. The kids watched — alarmed — as the school bus drove by, with the students inside watching the spectacle of uniformed police surrounding the house, carrying out the family’s belongings. Yet they were told they couldn’t tell anyone at school. They, too, had to remain silent. The mom watched as her entire life was laid open before the police. Her professional files, her personal files, everything. She knew this was all politics.

She knew a rogue prosecutor was targeting her for her political beliefs. And she realized, “Every aspect of my life is in their hands. And they hate me.” Fortunately for her family, the police didn’t taunt her or her children. Some of them seemed embarrassed by what they were doing.

At the end of the ordeal, one officer looked at the family, still confined to one room, and said, “Some days, I hate my job.”

For dozens of conservatives, the years since Scott Walker’s first election as governor of Wisconsin transformed the state — known for pro-football championships, good cheese, and a population with a reputation for being unfailingly polite — into a place where conservatives have faced early-morning raids, multi-year secretive criminal investigations, slanderous and selective leaks to sympathetic media, and intrusive electronic snooping.

Yes, Wisconsin, the cradle of the progressive movement and home of the “Wisconsin idea” — the marriage of state governments and state universities to govern through technocratic reform — was giving birth to a new progressive idea, the use of law enforcement as a political instrument, as a weapon to attempt to undo election results, shame opponents, and ruin lives.

Most Americans have never heard of these raids, or of the lengthy criminal investigations of Wisconsin conservatives. For good reason. Bound by comprehensive secrecy orders, conservatives were left to suffer in silence as leaks ruined their reputations, as neighbors, looking through windows and dismayed at the massive police presence, the lights shining down on targets’ homes, wondered, no doubt, What on earth did that family do? This was the on-the-ground reality of the so-called John Doe investigations, expansive and secret criminal proceedings that directly targeted Wisconsin residents because of their relationship to Scott Walker, their support for Act 10, and their advocacy of conservative reform.

Largely hidden from the public eye, this traumatic process, however, is now heading toward a legal climax, with two key rulings expected in the late spring or early summer. The first ruling, from the Wisconsin supreme court, could halt the investigations for good, in part by declaring that the “misconduct” being investigated isn’t misconduct at all but the simple exercise of First Amendment rights.

The second ruling, from the United States Supreme Court, could grant review on a federal lawsuit brought by Wisconsin political activist Eric O’Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth, the first conservatives to challenge the investigations head-on. If the Court grants review, it could not only halt the investigations but also begin the process of holding accountable those public officials who have so abused their powers. But no matter the outcome of these court hearings, the damage has been done. In the words of Mr. O’Keefe, “The process is the punishment.” It all began innocently enough. In 2009, officials from the office of the Milwaukee County executive contacted the office of the Milwaukee district attorney, headed by John Chisholm, to investigate the disappearance of $11,242.24 from the Milwaukee chapter of the Order of the Purple Heart. The matter was routine, with witnesses willing and able to testify against the principal suspect, a man named Kevin Kavanaugh.

What followed, however, was anything but routine. Chisholm failed to act promptly on the report, and when he did act, he refused to conduct a conventional criminal investigation but instead petitioned, in May 2010, to open a “John Doe” investigation, a proceeding under Wisconsin law that permits Wisconsin officials to conduct extensive investigations while keeping the target’s identity secret (hence the designation “John Doe”).

John Doe investigations alter typical criminal procedure in two important ways:
First, they remove grand juries from the investigative process, replacing the ordinary citizens of a grand jury with a supervising judge.
Second, they can include strict secrecy requirements not just on the prosecution but also on the targets of the investigation. In practice, this means that, while the prosecution cannot make public comments about the investigation, it can take public actions indicating criminal suspicion (such as raiding businesses and homes in full view of the community) while preventing the targets of the raids from defending against or even discussing the prosecution’s claims.

Why would Chisholm seek such broad powers to investigate a year-old embezzlement claim with a known suspect? Because the Milwaukee County executive, Scott Walker, had by that time become the leading Republican candidate for governor. District Attorney Chisholm was a Democrat, a very partisan Democrat. Almost immediately after opening the John Doe investigation, Chisholm used his expansive powers to embarrass Walker, raiding his county-executive offices within a week.

As Mr. O’Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth explained in court filings, the investigation then dramatically expanded:
Over the next few months, [Chisholm’s] investigation of all-things-Walker expanded to include everything from alleged campaign-finance violations to sexual misconduct to alleged public contracting bid-rigging to alleged misuse of county time and property. Between May 5, 2010, and May 3, 2012, the Milwaukee Defendants filed at least eighteen petitions to formally “[e]nlarge” the scope of the John Doe investigation, and each was granted. . . . That amounts to a new formal inquiry every five and a half weeks, on average, for two years.

This expansion coincided with one of the more remarkable state-level political controversies in modern American history – the protest (and passage) of Act 10, followed by the attempted recall of a number of Wisconsin legislators and, ultimately, Governor Walker.

Political observers will no doubt remember the events in Madison — the state capitol overrun by chanting protesters, Democratic lawmakers fleeing the state to prevent votes on the legislation, and tens of millions of dollars of outside money flowing into the state as Wisconsin became, fundamentally, a proxy fight pitting the union-led Left against the Tea Party–led economic Right.

At the same time that the public protests were raging, so were private — but important — protests in the Chisholm home and workplace. As a former prosecutor told journalist Stuart Taylor, Chisholm’s wife was a teachers’-union shop steward who was distraught over Act 10’s union reforms. He said Chisholm “felt it was his personal duty” to stop them. Meanwhile, according to this whistleblower, the district attorney’s offices were festooned with the “blue fist” poster of the labor-union movement, indicating that Chisholm’s employees were very much invested in the political fight. In the end, the John Doe proceeding failed in its ultimate aims. It secured convictions for embezzlement (related to the original 2009 complaint), a conviction for sexual misconduct, and a few convictions for minor campaign violations, but Governor Walker was untouched, his reforms were implemented, and he survived his recall election.

But with another election looming — this time Walker’s campaign for reelection — Chisholm wasn’t finished. He launched yet another John Doe investigation, “supervised” by Judge Barbara Kluka. Kluka proved to be capable of superhuman efficiency — approving “every petition, subpoena, and search warrant in the case” in a total of one day’s work.

If the first series of John Doe investigations was “everything Walker,” the second series was “everything conservative,” as Chisholm had launched an investigation of not only Walker (again) but the Wisconsin Club for Growth and dozens of other conservative organizations, this time fishing for evidence of allegedly illegal “coordination” between conservative groups and the Walker campaign.

In the second John Doe, Chisholm had no real evidence of wrongdoing. Yes, conservative groups were active in issue advocacy, but issue advocacy was protected by the First Amendment and did not violate relevant campaign laws. Nonetheless, Chisholm persuaded prosecutors in four other counties to launch their own John Does, with Judge Kluka overseeing all of them. Empowered by a rubber-stamp judge, partisan investigators ran amok. They subpoenaed and obtained (without the conservative targets’ knowledge) massive amounts of electronic data, including virtually all the targets’ personal e-mails and other electronic messages from outside e-mail vendors and communications companies.

The investigations exploded into the open with a coordinated series of raids on October 3, 2013. These were home invasions, including those described above. Chisholm’s office refused to comment on the raid tactics (or any other aspect of the John Doe investigations), but witness accounts regarding the two John Doe investigations are remarkably similar: early-morning intrusions, police rushing through the house, and stern commands to remain silent and tell no one about what had occurred.

At the same time, the Wisconsin Club for Growth and other conservative organizations received broad subpoenas requiring them to turn over virtually all business records, including “donor information, correspondence with their associates, and all financial information.” The subpoenas also contained dire warnings about disclosure of their existence, threatening contempt of court if the targets spoke publicly. For select conservative families across five counties, this was the terrifying moment — the moment they felt at the mercy of a truly malevolent state.

Speaking both on and off the record, targets reflected on how many layers of Wisconsin government failed their fundamental constitutional duties — the prosecutors who launched the rogue investigations, the judge who gave the abuse judicial sanction, investigators who chose to taunt and intimidate during the raids, and those police who ultimately approved and executed aggressive search tactics on law-abiding, peaceful citizens.

For some of the families, the trauma of the raids, combined with the stress and anxiety of lengthy criminal investigations, has led to serious emotional repercussions. “Devastating” is how Anne describes the impact on her family. “Life-changing,” she says. “All in terrible ways.” O’Keefe, who has been in contact with multiple targeted families, says, “Every family I know of that endured a home raid has been shaken to its core, and the fate of marriages and families still hangs in the balance in some cases.”

Anne also describes a new fear of the police: “I used to support the police, to believe they were here to protect us. Now, when I see an officer, I’ll cross the street. I’m afraid of them. I know what they’re capable of.” Cindy says, “I lock my doors and I close my shades. I don’t answer the door unless I am expecting someone. My heart races when I see a police car sitting in front of my house or following me in the car.

The raid was so public. I’ve been harassed. My house has been vandalized. [She did not identify suspects.] I no longer feel safe, and I don’t think I ever will.” Rachel talks about the effect on her children. “I tried to create a home where the kids always feel safe. Now they know they’re not. They know men with guns can come in their house, and there’s nothing we can do.” Every knock on the door brings anxiety. Every call to the house is screened. In the back of her mind is a single, unsettling thought: These people will never stop. Victims of trauma — and every person I spoke with described the armed raids as traumatic — often need to talk, to share their experiences and seek solace in the company of a loving family and supportive friends. The investigators denied them that privilege, and it compounded their pain and fear.

The investigation not only damaged families, it also shut down their free speech. In many cases, the investigations halted conservative groups in their tracks. O’Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth described the effect in court filings:

O’Keefe’s associates began cancelling meetings with him and declining to take his calls, reasonably fearful that merely associating with him could make them targets of the investigation. O’Keefe was forced to abandon fundraising for the Club because he could no longer guarantee to donors that their identities would remain confidential, could not (due to the Secrecy Order) explain to potential donors the nature of the investigation, could not assuage donors’ fears that they might become targets themselves, and could not assure donors that their money would go to fund advocacy rather than legal expenses. The Club was also paralyzed. Its officials could not associate with its key supporters, and its funds were depleted. It could not engage in issue advocacy for fear of criminal sanction.


These raids and subpoenas were often based not on traditional notions of probable cause but on mere suspicion, untethered to the law or evidence, and potentially violating the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition against “unreasonable searches and seizures.”

The very existence of First Amendment–protected expression was deemed to be evidence of illegality. The prosecution simply assumed that the conservatives were incapable of operating within the bounds of the law. Even worse, many of the investigators’ legal theories, even if proven by the evidence, would not have supported criminal prosecutions.

In other words, they were investigating “crimes” that weren’t crimes at all. If the prosecutors had applied the same legal standards to the Democrats in their own offices, they would have been forced to turn the raids on themselves. If the prosecutors and investigators had been raided, how many of their computers and smartphones would have contained incriminating information indicating use of government resources for partisan purposes?

With the investigations now bursting out into the open, some conservatives began to fight back. O’Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth moved to quash the John Doe subpoenas aimed at them. In a surprise move, Judge Kluka, who had presided over the Doe investigations for more than a year, recused herself from the case. (A political journal, the Wisconsin Reporter, attempted to speak to Judge Kluka about her recusal, but she refused to offer comment.)

The new judge in the case, Gregory Peterson, promptly sided with O’Keefe and blocked multiple subpoenas, holding (in a sealed opinion obtained by the Wall Street Journal, which has done invaluable work covering the John Doe investigations) that they “do not show probable cause that the moving parties committed any violations of the campaign finance laws.” The judge noted that “the State is not claiming that any of the independent organizations expressly advocated” Walker’s election.

O’Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth followed up Judge Peterson’s ruling by filing a federal lawsuit against Chisholm and a number of additional defendants, alleging multiple constitutional violations, including a claim that the investigation constituted unlawful retaliation against the plaintiffs for the exercise of their First Amendment rights. United States District Court judge Rudolph Randa promptly granted the plaintiffs’ motion for a preliminary injunction, declaring that “the Defendants must cease all activities related to the investigation, return all property seized in the investigation from any individual or organization, and permanently destroy all copies of information and other materials obtained through the investigation.”

From that point forward, the case proceeded on parallel state and federal tracks. At the federal level, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals reversed Judge Randa’s order. Declining to consider the case on the merits, the appeals court found the lawsuit barred by the federal Anti-Injunction Act, which prohibits federal courts from issuing injunctions against some state-court proceedings. O’Keefe and the Wisconsin Club for Growth have petitioned the Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari and expect a ruling in a matter of weeks.

At the same time, the John Doe prosecutors took their case to the Wisconsin Court of Appeals to attempt to restart the Doe proceedings. The case was ultimately consolidated before the state supreme court, with a ruling also expected in a matter of weeks.

And so, almost five years after their secret beginning, the John Doe proceedings are nearly dead — on “life support,” according to one Wisconsin pundit — but incalculable damage has been done, to families, to activist organizations, to the First Amendment, and to the rule of law itself.

In international law, the Western world has become familiar with a concept called “lawfare,” a process whereby rogue regimes or organizations abuse legal doctrines and processes to accomplish through sheer harassment and attrition what can’t be accomplished through legitimate diplomatic means. The Palestinian Authority and its defenders have become adept at lawfare, putting Israel under increasing pressure before the U.N. and other international bodies.

The John Doe investigations are a form of domestic lawfare, and our constitutional system is ill equipped to handle it. Federal courts rarely intervene in state judicial proceedings, state officials rarely lose their array of official immunities for the consequences of their misconduct, and violations of First Amendment freedoms rarely result in meaningful monetary damages for the victims.

As Scott Walker runs for president, the national media will finally join the Wall Street Journal in covering John Doe. Given the mainstream media’s typical bias and bad faith, they are likely to bring a fresh round of pain to the targets of the investigation; the cloud of suspicion will descend once again; even potential favorable court rulings by either the state supreme court or the U.S. Supreme Court will be blamed on “conservative justices” taking care of their own.

Conservatives have looked at Wisconsin as a success story, where Walker took everything the Left threw at him and emerged victorious in three general elections. He broke the power of the teachers’ unions and absorbed millions upon millions of dollars of negative ads. The Left kept chanting, “This is what democracy looks like,” and in Wisconsin, democracy looked like Scott Walker winning again and again.

Yet in a deeper way, Wisconsin is anything but a success. There were casualties left on the battlefield — innocent citizens victimized by a lawless government mob, public officials who brought the full power of their office down onto the innocent. Governors come and go. Statutes are passed and repealed. Laws and elections are important, to be sure, but the rule of law is more important still.

And in Wisconsin, the rule of law hangs in the balance — along with the liberty of citizens. As I finished an interview with one victim still living in fear, still shattered by the experience of nearly losing everything simply because she supported the wrong candidate at the wrong time, I asked whether she had any final thoughts. “Just one,” she replied. “I’m hoping for accountability, that someone will be held responsible so that they’ll never do this again.” She paused for a moment and then, with voice trembling, said: “No one should ever endure what my family endured.


Indeed... these are Federal jail worthy offences. This is what governmental malfeasances looks like.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

Whilst you guys are talking about Presidential candidates, over at the UK politics thread, we're talking nuclear weapons, guns, hotdogs, and Russian invasions! That's how we roll. We seem to acting more American than the Americans

On the subject of Presidential candidates, for the life of me, I cannot see anybody who can stop the Clinton bandwagon. I've been doing some in depth reading on this.

Bill's charm offensive will win the ground war, and as long as Hilary walks a straight line, I can't really see any serious blows landing on her.

I could be wrong.


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

HRC has two issues now.

The email thing (which has died down)...

And...

Appearance of quid pro quo of donations to her foundation during her tenure of Secretary of State.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
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Catskills in NYS

Sounds about right, but time will tell. We may have another Obama-like candidate, unknown, and a good campaigner. I'd say Obama is better at campaigning than anything else.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Sounds about right, but time will tell. We may have another Obama-like candidate, unknown, and a good campaigner. I'd say Obama is better at campaigning than anything else.

That's a rather... back handed insult to Obama.

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