Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Interesting. That's a totally different story than what he said previously.

It also changes literally nothing. He says that aborted fetal material service no medical purpose and what he did was totally different that what PP did, and then goes on to explain that what he did is exactly what PP did; which is to do research with aborted fetal material. It wasn't "collected for this study"? Well gee, that seems like an awful fine bit of hairsplitting. It serves no medical purpose, but we have it anyway so might as well use it for some needless research? I mean literally nothing about that makes sense.

While admitting that "Americans want abortion to be legal and as such, it makes sense to preserve the fetal tissue for research as it saves lives" is obviously a no-go for him - being reasonable will absolutely kill him with his core demo - what he should probably do is walk back the idea that aborted fetal tissue has no medical value or use.

Asked if Planned Parenthood should cease its fetal tissue distribution, Carson demurred. He still favored defunding the group, but would not call for the end of fetal tissue research so long as the fetal tissue was available.

Again, he knows what he said is a big, steamy pile of horse crap. If it's so horrible and serves no useful purpose, it seems like a pretty easy answer to say PP totes should stop what they're doing, right? Why even think about it, let alone refuse to answer?

That's the problem with "political outsiders" being the answer to our problems: they're not significantly less full of gak than political insiders.

Um... Ouze... you might want to dial back that ire and think it through.

He's not being a hypocrite here.

Further more, the Post shouldn't be taken as gospel on this... wait for other sources/Carson interviews.

 Scrabb wrote:
The fetal tissue that was viewed in this study by others was not collected for this study.........

Bob and weave guys, bob and weave.

So the argument is that the doctors didn't phone in a specific request to some facility and said "I need you to abort me some babies for this study that I'm running" and that they used fetal tissue that was already available from abortions that happened anyway.

Like what Planned Parenthood is doing with their tissue samples.

 whembly wrote:
Um... Ouze... you might want to dial back that ire and think it through.

He's not being a hypocrite here.

Further more, the Post shouldn't be taken as gospel on this... wait for other sources/Carson interviews.

His own stories don't line up with each other. Unless he's being misquoted/ "mispoke."

 Scrabb wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Um... Ouze... you might want to dial back that ire and think it through.

He's not being a hypocrite here.

Further more, the Post shouldn't be taken as gospel on this... wait for other sources/Carson interviews.

His own stories don't line up with each other. Unless he's being misquoted/ "mispoke."

I think there's a few things going on here...

1) Since Dr. Carson is making some noise, it's time to for everyone to play the political 'gotcha' game. One of those is to let's paint how extreme a Republican is by bringing up 'Abortions'

2) Another thing is that his name on that article was being taken as an implication that he did work with fetal tissue.

3) Again, with PP/Abortion subject matter, many are trying to infer that PP is the only *source* for fetal tissues. Which is patently false.

4) You can be totally against what PP does... and STILL support research with fetal tissues.

5) These arguments get totally whacked because fetal tissue research often pits medical research\scientific studies against morality and human ethics.

But, to elaborate on Ouze's earlier point... this highlights how "green" Dr. Carson is in the Political Thunderdome as he's falling into these obvious landmines.

4) You can be totally against what PP does... and STILL support research with fetal tissues.

So far, despite lots of noise and accusations, PP hasn't done anything except exactly the kind of thing that provided the tissue samples that were used.

But maybe we will find out that Carson once checked out a book on OB/GYN procedures and that that book had a chapter on abortions, because that will be the ultimate proof that he has something to hide.

 d-usa wrote:

4) You can be totally against what PP does... and STILL support research with fetal tissues.

So far, despite lots of noise and accusations, PP hasn't done anything except exactly the kind of thing that provided the tissue samples that were used.

In addition to apparently breaking a few laws... sure.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

4) You can be totally against what PP does... and STILL support research with fetal tissues.

So far, despite lots of noise and accusations, PP hasn't done anything except exactly the kind of thing that provided the tissue samples that were used.

In addition to apparently breaking a few laws... sure.

I don't know why I even argue with a felon...

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

4) You can be totally against what PP does... and STILL support research with fetal tissues.

So far, despite lots of noise and accusations, PP hasn't done anything except exactly the kind of thing that provided the tissue samples that were used.

In addition to apparently breaking a few laws... sure.

I don't know why I even argue with a felon...

Huh?

I'm sorry, I thought we were playing the "make gak up and pretend people have been subject to a criminal investigation, indicted, tried, and convicted" game. None of which has happened to Planned Parenthood after these "gotcha" videos.

They have not broken any laws. A quick search doesn't show any active investigations, other than links from WorldNewsDaily and other crazy blogs/news/whatever.

Planned Parenthood takes tissue that will end up in a red biohazard bag and burned in an oven and passes it on for research. Dr. Carson participated in a study that used tissue from aborted fetuses. Now he wants to defund PP for doing the exact same thing that he benefited from.

You can have some more integrity than Dr. Carson and see it for the hypocrisy that it is, or you can stick to the same playbook you always stick to.

 d-usa wrote:
I'm sorry, I thought we were playing the "make gak up and pretend people have been subject to a criminal investigation, indicted, tried, and convicted" game. None of which has happened to Planned Parenthood after these "gotcha" videos.

They have not broken any laws. A quick search doesn't show any active investigations, other than links from WorldNewsDaily and other crazy blogs/news/whatever.

Same attitude that allow Gosnells to operate for years imo. Because of it's inflammatory subject matter, no one wants to investigate any possible issues with these clinics in fear of being labeled an "extremist".

Planned Parenthood takes tissue that will end up in a red biohazard bag and burned in an oven and passes it on for research. Dr. Carson participated in a study that used tissue from aborted fetuses. Now he wants to defund PP for doing the exact same thing that he benefited from.

You can have some more integrity than Dr. Carson and see it for the hypocrisy that it is, or you can stick to the same playbook you always stick to.

The tissues, in itself, isn't the FETHING issue d-usa.

Research using fetal tissues isn't the issue.

Full Stop.

It's the manner of how PP themselves, acquired these tissues, and the apparent profit motives of these fetal organ/tissue harvesting.

But, I don't want to talk about this in this thread... so, if you're bothered by my viewpoints, startup a "defend PP thread" and we'll tango.

With respect to Carson, again, you can participate in fetal tissue studies AND take a "Defund PP" stance. There's no hypocrisy there. Only that Political newbie Carson is in danger of flubbing these questions.

He's a Neuro Surgeon. Carson has the patience and stamina.....I hated Neuro. Their surgical sets were a pain to assemble. I also hated passing one instrument and waiting 20 mins. Also going through the front where they demask your skin from your face.......anyway. He did his research from a "stock" hospital. Anyone ever been to a "Body World" display/exhibit?

1992 is a bit different then 2015.

 whembly wrote:

2) Another thing is that his name on that article was being taken as an implication that he did work with fetal tissue.

Yes, because the article involved data collected from fetal tissue. That seems like perfectly legitimate grounds to question someone as to whether or not they worked with fetal tissue directly, which Carson later admitted to doing.

 whembly wrote:

3) Again, with PP/Abortion subject matter, many are trying to infer that PP is the only *source* for fetal tissues. Which is patently false.

Who has ever tried to make that claim?

 whembly wrote:

4) You can be totally against what PP does... and STILL support research with fetal tissues.

You can, but it would be extremely difficult to do so with a straight face given that most fetal tissue samples are collected from aborted fetuses.

Of course Carson has more to say about PP:

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/14/432080520/fact-check-was-planned-parenthood-started-to-control-the-black-population

Lol if the "founder" had any real moral bearing on the current organization then we ought to stop buying products from: Ford/IBM/Porche/Volkswagen /The United States/ all of Europe/ all of Asia/ Africa/ Australia...etc until you grow your own food on a farm in northern Canada.

What a stupid stupid arguement from an educated man. These candidates need to stop pandering to the Republicans fundamentalist minority.

If nothing Carson is good proof that being knowledgeable in one field doesn't guarantee, or even mean, knowledge of another field. Being educated doesn't mean one is free from idiocy. I have two advanced degrees and I'm a monumental idiot.

In view of Carson and PP:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/55ce0c00e4b0ab468d9d1490?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Trump is the Republican equivalent of Obama. People talk about Trump with Messianic tones.

I honestly thought this claim was full of gak when I saw this post, but I am listening to s CSPAN post-Trump speech call-in, and you're right. This is some Reagan/Obama-level worship going on, at least anecdotally.

Yah, I would of thought the same but if you look at social media and look to the comments people make they really believe he is the one that will save us all.

I remember Oprah with Obama..."He is THE ONE."

Do conservatives have an Oprah?

 jasper76 wrote:

Do conservatives have an Oprah?

The closest they probably ever came was Glenn Beck

Bill O'Riley maybe?

They used to have Billy Graham. He was kind of their King Maker for a good while.

I'd guess Rush Limbaugh is the closest modern equivalent, but I'm not sure where is popularity is at these days.

Not sure about O'Reilly, my conservative friends also think he's a pompous moron. Although that is rather anecdotal.

 whembly wrote:
1) Since Dr. Carson is making some noise, it's time to for everyone to play the political 'gotcha' game. One of those is to let's paint how extreme a Republican is by bringing up 'Abortions'.

The "He/She Must Be Doing Something Right If Liberals Are Attacking" defense. No reason to actually talk about the issue at hand, the fact that the left wing is talking about it means they must be scared and so that's the real story.


By the way, no one has to paint a picture of how extreme these republicans are. They're doing a pretty awesome job of that themselves. I'd argue that with the exception of John Kasich and Cris Christie, the median political belief of the current GOP field actually is pretty far from the political center. I imagine Dogma has better info on that than I do, but that's my gut feeling.

 Ahtman wrote:
If nothing Carson is good proof that being knowledgeable in one field doesn't guarantee, or even mean, knowledge of another field. Being educated doesn't mean one is free from idiocy. I have two advanced degrees and I'm a monumental idiot.

Impossible! We all know that the best person qualified to be a successful politician is someone who isn't a successful politician. You're like, 90% of the way there.

 whembly wrote:
But, I don't want to talk about this in this thread... so, if you're bothered by my viewpoints, startup a "defend PP thread" and we'll tango.

Well, of course not. You want to use this thread for posting a new Hillary Clinton Totally Serious Scandal Update every day between now and November 7th, 2016; and anything that distracts from those efforts is unwelcome

So far as Oprah goes, Rush Limbaugh certainly used to be the conservative Oprah, but his star has waned considerably. I think O'Reilly's reputation is a bit tarnished as well. I don't think I really could call anyone the conservative Oprah, currently.

Ouze wrote:
I'd argue that with the exception of John Kasich

Kasich is just as extreme as the rest of them, he just hides it better. He championed limiting collective bargaining in Ohio, signed a budget bill severely restricting reproductive rights, and at one time decided that we need to repeal parts of the Fourteenth Amendment to eliminate birthright citizen ship (which is now backtracking on, probably because he realized [or was told] that idea is fething stupid).

He did accept expanded Medicaid coverage (though he did later say that everything else in the ACA should be repealed) and he actually acknowledges that climate change is an actual, measurable thing (though he's not sure what is causing it).

Alright, fair enough. Truthfully out of all the candidates, I know the least about John Kasich.

You know who is truly a moderate republican? Former NY state governor George Pataki. He's pro gay marriage. He's pro environment. He's practicality unknown.

Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
1) Since Dr. Carson is making some noise, it's time to for everyone to play the political 'gotcha' game. One of those is to let's paint how extreme a Republican is by bringing up 'Abortions'.

The "He/She Must Be Doing Something Right If Liberals Are Attacking" defense. No reason to actually talk about the issue at hand, the fact that the left wing is talking about it means they must be scared and so that's the real story.

Holy batman! wut?

Are you seriously trying to imply that this doesn't happen to candidate on both sides?

o.O

By the way, no one has to paint a picture of how extreme these republicans are. They're doing a pretty awesome job of that themselves. I'd argue that with the exception of John Kasich and Cris Christie, the median political belief of the current GOP field actually is pretty far from the political center. I imagine Dogma has better info on that than I do, but that's my gut feeling.

Kasich/Christie ain't that moderate. They're savvy politicians that can get gak done in a purple/blue state.

Please don't tell me that you buy that any one of Sanders, O'Malley, HRC, potential democratic bench are bastions of "moderates".

 Ahtman wrote:
If nothing Carson is good proof that being knowledgeable in one field doesn't guarantee, or even mean, knowledge of another field. Being educated doesn't mean one is free from idiocy. I have two advanced degrees and I'm a monumental idiot.

Impossible! We all know that the best person qualified to be a successful politician is someone who isn't a successful politician. You're like, 90% of the way there.

Agreed! Obama falls into that same group.

 whembly wrote:
But, I don't want to talk about this in this thread... so, if you're bothered by my viewpoints, startup a "defend PP thread" and we'll tango.

Well, of course not. You want to use this thread for posting a new Hillary Clinton Totally Serious Scandal Update every day between now and November 7th, 2016; and anything that distracts from those efforts is unwelcome

I just don't want this glorious thread to be desintegrated by our overlords, like every PP/Abortion threads.

So far as Oprah goes, Rush Limbaugh certainly used to be the conservative Oprah, but his star has waned considerably. I think O'Reilly's reputation is a bit tarnished as well. I don't think I really could call anyone the conservative Oprah, currently.

There isn't a conservative 'Oprah' because no one is as awesome as Oprah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Ouze wrote:
I'd argue that with the exception of John Kasich

Kasich is just as extreme as the rest of them, he just hides it better. He championed limiting collective bargaining in Ohio, signed a budget bill severely restricting reproductive rights, and at one time decided that we need to repeal parts of the Fourteenth Amendment to eliminate birthright citizen ship (which is now backtracking on, probably because he realized [or was told] that idea is fething stupid).

He did accept expanded Medicaid coverage (though he did later say that everything else in the ACA should be repealed) and he actually acknowledges that climate change is an actual, measurable thing (though he's not sure what is causing it).

Yeah... Kasich is a pompous ass to the Republican base, but as I mentioned earlier, he's a good politician.

If we want to look at the Electoral College game for the general election... one could argue that the best possible ticket would be a Kasich/Rubio or Rubio/Kasich combo. Getting both Ohio and Florida to turn red is paramount for a Republican win... and it won't be easy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You know who is truly a moderate republican? Former NY state governor George Pataki. He's pro gay marriage. He's pro environment. He's practicality unknown.

He's another Romney.

Seriously... compare 'em.

 whembly wrote:

ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
But, I don't want to talk about this in this thread... so, if you're bothered by my viewpoints, startup a "defend PP thread" and we'll tango.

Well, of course not. You want to use this thread for posting a new Hillary Clinton Totally Serious Scandal Update every day between now and November 7th, 2016; and anything that distracts from those efforts is unwelcome

I just don't want this glorious thread to be desintegrated by our overlords, like every PP/Abortion threads.

It will only get derailed if people start talking about the whole "religion/when does life begin/should it be legal/etc aspect of abortion.

Fact is that Carson used fetal tissue from aborted fetuses for research, Planned Parenthood provides fetal tissue from aborted fetuses for research.
Carson is trying to argue that him experimenting with aborted fetal tissue is different because he didn't break any laws and Planned Parenthood did, but every single investigation has revealed that they are following the rules and didn't break any laws.

He is being pretty hypocritical, and if you are okay with him using fetal tissue and against PP for providing fetal tissue then you are being pretty hypocritical as well. What he did was legal, and what Planned Parenthood did was legal (as multiple investigations have revealed so far). Research on aborted fetal tissue is either bad, in which case Carson and PP are both bad people, or it's okay, in which case Carson and PP did nothing wrong.

Additionally his comments about PP engaging in eugenics and setting up shops in black neighborhoods to control the black population is simply bs, as the statistics clearly show.

Dr. Carson is a victim, that much I agree with you. But he is not a victim of the liberal media, he is a victim of the idiots he has to pander to during the GOP primary and he knows he has no political/pundit/consultant future if he tries to actually try to explain that fetal tissue is very important in medical science and that no laws were broken.