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 skyth wrote:
More proof Carlson is a whackjob...

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/05/02/dr-ben-carsons-religious-beliefs-stirs-controversy-at-emory-university/

That he equates the acceptance of evolution with a lack of ethics and morality.”

I truthfully underestimated how willing Dr. Carson was to say the ridiculous, insipid things his base now expects out of it's candidates. It's few men who are willing to let their ambition gak so publicly on their intelligence - well done! Perhaps he has the legs to win this thing yet*.

*By which I mean win the nomination, and then be trounced in the general; which is now the best any of the GOP candidates can hope to accomplish.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Evolution has been the basis for some of the most terrible racism ever. Its how you can justify your opponents being subhuman.

Holy fething Some things aren't covered by the swear filter, motyak read a book. Tribes of humans were claiming others tribes were subhuman for thousands of years before anyone thought of anything like evolution.

What evolution and genetic study has shown us is that the notion of tribes, of distinct genetic seperation, is nonsense.

Guys, focus on the purely political implications of this. Same rules as the whole PP video thing. Leave the genocidal aspects and the debates on if religion really does provide morals to another thread

 Ouze wrote:
I truthfully underestimated how willing Dr. Carson was to say the ridiculous, insipid things his base now expects out of it's candidates. It's few men who are willing to let their ambition gak so publicly on their intelligence - well done! Perhaps he has the legs to win this thing yet*.

*By which I mean win the nomination, and then be trounced in the general; which is now the best any of the GOP candidates can hope to accomplish.

It seems that the crazy stuff that Republicans have to say in order secure the base gets more ridiculous with each election. Or possibly that candidates are willing to go further to pander to that base. Either way, the Republicans seem to be a very long way from a party capable of stable governance at this point.

 sebster wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I truthfully underestimated how willing Dr. Carson was to say the ridiculous, insipid things his base now expects out of it's candidates. It's few men who are willing to let their ambition gak so publicly on their intelligence - well done! Perhaps he has the legs to win this thing yet*.

*By which I mean win the nomination, and then be trounced in the general; which is now the best any of the GOP candidates can hope to accomplish.

It seems that the crazy stuff that Republicans have to say in order secure the base gets more ridiculous with each election. Or possibly that candidates are willing to go further to pander to that base. Either way, the Republicans seem to be a very long way from a party capable of stable governance at this point.

I don't understand why the Republican party leadership is so stupid. This "rallying the base" crap during the primaries has lost them the last two elections in a row, and they are probably on track to lose a third if they don't fix their gak. The farther right they push, the more moderate voters they lose, and they need the moderates to win the election. They are doing the exact same thing expecting different results. It is, quite literally, the actions of an insane person.

Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not talking about Republican voters or Republicans in general, I'm talking about the high level Republican party officials who are encouraging candidates to push farther and farther to the right, into the realm of the un-electable. It's embarrassing.

 Hordini wrote:

I don't understand why the Republican party leadership is so stupid. This "rallying the base" crap during the primaries has lost them the last two elections in a row, and they are probably on track to lose a third if they don't fix their gak. The farther right they push, the more moderate voters they lose, and they need the moderates to win the election. They are doing the exact same thing expecting different results. It is, quite literally, the actions of an insane person.

Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not talking about Republican voters or Republicans in general, I'm talking about the high level Republican party officials who are encouraging candidates to push farther and farther to the right, into the realm of the un-electable. It's embarrassing.

The Tea Party. Obviously not every supporter is wrong, but the voter base is adorably funny a lot of the time.

 Hordini wrote:
I don't understand why the Republican party leadership is so stupid. This "rallying the base" crap during the primaries has lost them the last two elections in a row, and they are probably on track to lose a third if they don't fix their gak. The farther right they push, the more moderate voters they lose, and they need the moderates to win the election. They are doing the exact same thing expecting different results. It is, quite literally, the actions of an insane person.

Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not talking about Republican voters or Republicans in general, I'm talking about the high level Republican party officials who are encouraging candidates to push farther and farther to the right, into the realm of the un-electable. It's embarrassing.

No-one in the leadership is encouraging candidates to move further right. Candidates are choosing to go further and further right, because that's where the votes are in the primary. It's possible to play a more moderate game*, but that relies on all the more extreme candidates falling over, but that is probably near impossible in this election cycle, with such a strong anti-establishment mood. A guy like Ted Cruz has got to where he's got by making sure he's more hard right than any competitor, and it's worked very well for him given the Republican base lately. But even he's been outflanked by people who've taken up equally hard right politics, and added some populist insanity in to the mix, like Trump and Carson.

The real question is why the Republican electorate has moved so hard right itself. Is it just a product of FOX news? Internet echo chambers? Or is the hard right nature of the electorate a product of the Republican party leading their voters that way? With more hard right candidates winning office (thanks to redistricting producing so many safe seats that the only fight for election is the primary, and a generational effect of kids brought up under the 'big lie' coming in to politics actually believing that stuff), do the statements of those new leaders direct the beliefs of the greater electorare?

I have no idea. And the bigger question is when is it going to stop. Is it going to stop, or is just going to drive the Republican party more and more fringe until they implode?




*Relatively speaking, even moderate GOP politics are pretty extreme these days.

The opposite can be said of the Democrats and how it's being tugged to the left.

I mean... look at popular Bernie Sanders is now. He's a full on socialist and it's getting to the point in this country that it's not a dirty word.

 whembly wrote:
The opposite can be said of the Democrats and how it's being tugged to the left.

I mean... look at popular Bernie Sanders is now. He's a full on socialist and it's getting to the point in this country that it's not a dirty word.

The things that Bernie Sanders are saying aren't actually pants on head crazy, and if just throwing out the phrase "socialist" isn't the most deathly insult imaginable anymore, then as a whole we're in a better place.

When you have at one hand a guy who is a doctor literally saying he thinks evolution is a fairy tale, and on the other hand, a guy who wants to increase the minimum wage, it's really hard to paint them both with the same extremist nonsense brush, much as you're clearly trying.

 Ouze wrote:
When you have at one hand a guy who is a doctor literally saying he thinks evolution is a fairy tale

No, the Big Bang is a fairy tale. The theory of evolution was given to Charles Darwin by the devil.

 whembly wrote:
The opposite can be said of the Democrats and how it's being tugged to the left.

I mean... look at popular Bernie Sanders is now. He's a full on socialist and it's getting to the point in this country that it's not a dirty word.

It can be said, but the point is that it isn't true. As Ouze points out, you and a lot of others have gotten a lot of mileage out of Sanders being a socialist, and while his politics are almost certainly too far left for the US mainstream, his arguments aren't based on falsehood or insanity. When someone running for the Democratic nomination proposes building a wall and getting Mexico to pay for it, or claims the Big Bang is wrong because thermodynamics, or talks about anything as basically idiotic as a flat income tax rate or gold standard, then there'll be some kind of parity.

End of the day, there's really no point spending post after post trying to convince you of any of this. The insanity that regularly comes up in Republican politics now is plainly obvious to anyone who isn't actively trying to deny it. Really, it comes down to an issue of you and every other moderate Republican supporter being honest enough to recognise this and refusing to accept it anymore. In party politics it's a reality that you have to accept party factions that you don't agree with all that much, and even some who are pretty odious and even crazy, but when you reach a point where the odious and crazy parts are totally dominating the party you have to call it as it is, and stop putting up with it.

See it or don't. It's your country and your political party.

 sebster wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
I don't understand why the Republican party leadership is so stupid. This "rallying the base" crap during the primaries has lost them the last two elections in a row, and they are probably on track to lose a third if they don't fix their gak. The farther right they push, the more moderate voters they lose, and they need the moderates to win the election. They are doing the exact same thing expecting different results. It is, quite literally, the actions of an insane person.

Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not talking about Republican voters or Republicans in general, I'm talking about the high level Republican party officials who are encouraging candidates to push farther and farther to the right, into the realm of the un-electable. It's embarrassing.

No-one in the leadership is encouraging candidates to move further right. Candidates are choosing to go further and further right, because that's where the votes are in the primary. It's possible to play a more moderate game*, but that relies on all the more extreme candidates falling over, but that is probably near impossible in this election cycle, with such a strong anti-establishment mood. A guy like Ted Cruz has got to where he's got by making sure he's more hard right than any competitor, and it's worked very well for him given the Republican base lately. But even he's been outflanked by people who've taken up equally hard right politics, and added some populist insanity in to the mix, like Trump and Carson.

The real question is why the Republican electorate has moved so hard right itself. Is it just a product of FOX news? Internet echo chambers? Or is the hard right nature of the electorate a product of the Republican party leading their voters that way? With more hard right candidates winning office (thanks to redistricting producing so many safe seats that the only fight for election is the primary, and a generational effect of kids brought up under the 'big lie' coming in to politics actually believing that stuff), do the statements of those new leaders direct the beliefs of the greater electorare?

I have no idea. And the bigger question is when is it going to stop. Is it going to stop, or is just going to drive the Republican party more and more fringe until they implode?




*Relatively speaking, even moderate GOP politics are pretty extreme these days.

In retrospect, you're probably correct in that it might not be anyone specific in the party leadership that is spurring the shift farther to the right. It is difficult to determine exactly why the shift has occurred, but in any case, it is deeply, deeply concerning.

 Hordini wrote:
On retrospect, you're probably correct in that it might not be anyone specific in the party leadership that is spurring the shift farther to the right. It is difficult to determine exactly why the shift has occurred, but in any case, it is deeply, deeply concerning.

Yeah, definitely. And it gets scarier when you realise its still getting worse with no sign of reaching the end of the trend. Next election cycle could be even crazier.

 sebster wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
On retrospect, you're probably correct in that it might not be anyone specific in the party leadership that is spurring the shift farther to the right. It is difficult to determine exactly why the shift has occurred, but in any case, it is deeply, deeply concerning.

Yeah, definitely. And it gets scarier when you realise its still getting worse with no sign of reaching the end of the trend. Next election cycle could be even crazier.

I believe they've already made a movie about it:

Anyone have a text of that Carson video/speech where he opined that evolution is fairy tale? I'm striking out...

Ditto, I'd love to see his actual words and phrasing. Because honestly, I just don't want to believe you. I wouldn't be shocked if he did, but I just...I just want it to not be.

It sounds like something Carson would say. The guy basically runs for no reason other than to throw out cliche Republican nut job sound bites.

Found something...
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/09/23/ben-carson-big-bang-evolution/

Source from BuzzFeed.

Ah well, my hopes that he didn't are dashed.

 motyak wrote:
Ah well, my hopes that he didn't are dashed.

Yup...

Here's a good article I just read:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/24/most-doctors-are-not-scientists/

TL;DR... Physicians <> Scientists.

 whembly wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Ah well, my hopes that he didn't are dashed.

Yup...

Here's a good article I just read:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/24/most-doctors-are-not-scientists/

TL;DR... Physicians <> Scientists.

That is never an excuse. Ever.

I'm not a scientist either (I mean, I'm a fething construction worker by trade and I never went to college), but I under how science works. The gak he trots out in that speech is just flabbergasting... we're talking basic physics here, the same gak I learned in 10th grade. And then on top of that, when called out on it, he tries to drag "faith" into it. You don't need faith for scientific facts to be true or not.

He is just a perfect example of a stupid smart person.

Though I did like that article calling out Dr. Oz... because feth that guy.

 whembly wrote:
Yup...

Here's a good article I just read:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/24/most-doctors-are-not-scientists/

TL;DR... Physicians <> Scientists.

Most of us aren't scientists, but we are adults with a basic respect for scientific institutions. Unless you happen to be courting votes in a party with an anti-science bent that's getting way out of control. Then you starting claiming all sorts of crazy gak.

I knew about him questioning the big bang because thermodynamics, but I didn't know about the evolution thing. fething hell.

It really is up to reasonable Republicans to call an end to this nonsense.

 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
The opposite can be said of the Democrats and how it's being tugged to the left.

I mean... look at popular Bernie Sanders is now. He's a full on socialist and it's getting to the point in this country that it's not a dirty word.

The things that Bernie Sanders are saying aren't actually pants on head crazy, and if just throwing out the phrase "socialist" isn't the most deathly insult imaginable anymore, then as a whole we're in a better place.

When you have at one hand a guy who is a doctor literally saying he thinks evolution is a fairy tale, and on the other hand, a guy who wants to increase the minimum wage, it's really hard to paint them both with the same extremist nonsense brush, much as you're clearly trying.

While Democrats have been shifting left, it hasn't been anywhere close to the shift to the right we have seen.

So... Hillary now likes the Citizens United case now... huh...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/saturday-night-live-premiere-basically-a-hillary-clinton-campaign-ad.html

She'll do anything she can to be elected, even if they are unsavory, did you expect anything different?

She's in this, not to make the country better or anything, but to get elected.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Ah well, my hopes that he didn't are dashed.

Yup...

Here's a good article I just read:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/24/most-doctors-are-not-scientists/

TL;DR... Physicians <> Scientists.

That is never an excuse. Ever.

I'm not a scientist either (I mean, I'm a fething construction worker by trade and I never went to college), but I under how science works. The gak he trots out in that speech is just flabbergasting... we're talking basic physics here, the same gak I learned in 10th grade. And then on top of that, when called out on it, he tries to drag "faith" into it. You don't need faith for scientific facts to be true or not.

He is just a perfect example of a stupid smart person.

I'm not excusing the guy... jeeze man.

I find it interesting that many believe his beliefs should automatically disqualify him from the office, but when he opined that he wouldn't vote for a Muslim... all hell breaks loose.

My head hurts man...

Though I did like that article calling out Dr. Oz... because feth that guy.

Indeed.

I work in the Healthcare industry... that writer is absolutely correct. Physicians as a general rule are NOT scientist. Not even fething close.

We have some of the most brilliant minds on the planet regarding healthcare, but there are some I sure as hell wouldn't want them working on my car, or do my taxes.

 whembly wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Ah well, my hopes that he didn't are dashed.

Yup...

Here's a good article I just read:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/24/most-doctors-are-not-scientists/

TL;DR... Physicians <> Scientists.

That is never an excuse. Ever.

I'm not a scientist either (I mean, I'm a fething construction worker by trade and I never went to college), but I under how science works. The gak he trots out in that speech is just flabbergasting... we're talking basic physics here, the same gak I learned in 10th grade. And then on top of that, when called out on it, he tries to drag "faith" into it. You don't need faith for scientific facts to be true or not.

He is just a perfect example of a stupid smart person.

I'm not excusing the guy... jeeze man.

I find it interesting that many believe his beliefs should automatically disqualify him from the office, but when he opined that he wouldn't vote for a Muslim... all hell breaks loose.

My head hurts man...

It shouldn't because this is really an apples and oranges comparison.

In both cases, it shows that Carson's ideas and decisions are not rooted in any reality other than one he is making up in his own head. Both beliefs are related in so much that they are rooted in the belief that 'If you're not like me, you're a bad person'. He can't see outside his own beliefs and look at the world in the shades of grey that it is. That is something that is dangerous for someone with power.

The objection isn't to Carson's faith per se...But rather that he's a whackjob and he uses his faith to try to justify that (Kind of like the Phelps clan).

He expouses the same things that stereotypes the 7th-Day Aventist denomination... one of the largest evangelicals in the US.

But comparing him to Phelps...? Okay... go with that.

:shrugs:

Even with his beliefs... he has repeated this in several public speeches:

"Everybody's free to do whatever they want. To try to impose one's religious beliefs on someone else is absolutely what we should not be doing. That goes in both directions. Someone who is an atheist doesn't have a right to tell someone who isn't an atheist what they can or cannot do or what they can or cannot say. We have to be fair but it has to be fair in both directions"

As anyone running for public office... that is something we'd want all of our elected officials to preach... right?

Having said that, I really believe Carson (like Trump) won't have the legs to make it to the RNC nomination.

I really think it'll be between Rubio and Firorina. (my hope would be Rubio).

Rubio is probably the only chance the R's has to win, as he's a great contrast to whomever comes out of the DNC nomination process.

 whembly wrote:
But comparing him to Phelps...? Okay... go with that.

He does kind of have a point... I think we all agree that Phelps and by extension, WBC live in a bit of a "dream world" where what they think, and what reality is are two very different things.


The same can be said of Carson, but with one huge difference: Carson isn't verbally proclaiming a message of overt hate, picketing funerals and "thanking god" that gays, soldiers and other "undesirables" are being killed.

It's almost worse since he's using messages of covert hate. When you start saying things like accepting scientific fact (ie evolution) means you have no morals or saying that all Muslims are extremists, that gets troubling...

I'm always nervous when someone like him is saying thing along the line of Atheists shouldn't be able to tell me what to do. That's really a dog whistle for 'I should be able to keep my special privileges as a Christian and you're a bad person for calling me on that'.