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2016/03/14 20:22:31
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
The 'glossing over' of the opposition tactics is really the equivalent of a murderer claiming that a guy that stole (food to feed his family) is just as bad as he is...
2016/03/14 20:25:02
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
I agree. We can't gloss over the Soros funded Move-on.org's tactics to stifle free speech rights. Perhaps a RICO investigation is in order.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/03/14 20:30:50
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Frazzled wrote: I agree. We can't gloss over the Soros funded Move-on.org's tactics to stifle free speech rights. Perhaps a RICO investigation is in order.
Doesn't look like anyone is stiffling anyone's right to free speech to me. See, look, the lunatic's on the tele spouting hatred again!
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2016/03/14 20:31:28
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
The Trump rallies are being held in arenas/buildings that are private property, therefore there are no free speech rights in play for the protestors. They can protest outside on public property but they don't have a right to be in the building if the running the event/building want them to leave. This holds true for any rally/event being held on private property.
There's no need for protestors fo this nature to lead to violence but anyone walking into an event on private property with the intent to be a disruptive nuisance needs to understand that they will be escorted out as soon as they act up.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/03/14 20:33:33
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Prestor Jon wrote: The Trump rallies are being held in arenas/buildings that are private property, therefore there are no free speech rights in play for the protestors. They can protest outside on public property but they don't have a right to be in the building if the running the event/building want them to leave. This holds true for any rally/event being held on private property.
There's no need for protestors fo this nature to lead to violence but anyone walking into an event on private property with the intent to be a disruptive nuisance needs to understand that they will be escorted out as soon as they act up.
Yes that's fine. They can be escorted out as being disruptive. Every protester knows that. It's still a legitimate form of democractic engagement and protest.
What is not acceptable is being attacked, punched or to have Trump encourage his supporters to attack and punch protesters.
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2016/03/14 20:35:39
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Frazzled wrote: I agree. We can't gloss over the Soros funded Move-on.org's tactics to stifle free speech rights. Perhaps a RICO investigation is in order.
Doesn't look like anyone is stiffling anyone's right to free speech to me. See, look, the lunatic's on the tele spouting hatred again!
Well to be mor eclear, the right to free speech and assembly. These are private political events.
Protesting outside: time honored tradition that allows you to use your free speech while respecting the right of your opponent to use theirs.
Protesting inside: shouting down your opponent: bs Godwin tactic. You get what you get.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/03/14 20:37:53
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
It's still a legitimate form of democractic engagement and protest.
Its not. Its attempting to shout down your opponent. Thats not even acceptable on the kindergarten playground.
These tactics, and the MSM saying how its all Trump's fault, are making him sympathetic. Do you know how hard it is to make Trump sympathetic?
The "silent majority" still exists. And you are pushing them.
As Trump is such a good construction company exec, maybe he could build huge walls around his events to keep out the undesirables.
"It will be the best wall oh you wouldn't believe how best it is"
"Hey did he just steal my 'best' line?" -Kim "Illin' Sung
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/14 20:43:17
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/03/14 20:54:13
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Prestor Jon wrote: The Trump rallies are being held in arenas/buildings that are private property, therefore there are no free speech rights in play for the protestors. They can protest outside on public property but they don't have a right to be in the building if the running the event/building want them to leave. This holds true for any rally/event being held on private property.
There's no need for protestors fo this nature to lead to violence but anyone walking into an event on private property with the intent to be a disruptive nuisance needs to understand that they will be escorted out as soon as they act up.
Yes that's fine. They can be escorted out as being disruptive. Every protester knows that. It's still a legitimate form of democractic engagement and protest.
What is not acceptable is being attacked, punched or to have Trump encourage his supporters to attack and punch protesters.
I'm not sure what's worse... the act itself, or the police reaction (which is to swarm over the dude who got punched, instead of immediately go to arrest the assaulter)
You certainly don't see this kind of violence inside of Hillary or Sanders' events, do you? And you certainly don't have the reaction Trump usually gives, which only further inflames the crowds.
2016/03/14 21:06:38
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
It's still a legitimate form of democractic engagement and protest.
Its not. Its attempting to shout down your opponent. Thats not even acceptable on the kindergarten playground.
These tactics, and the MSM saying how its all Trump's fault, are making him sympathetic. Do you know how hard it is to make Trump sympathetic?
The "silent majority" still exists. And you are pushing them.
It is called heckling and it is fine. Politicians need to be able to deal patiently with it. There's a nack to getting on top of heckling, a witty one-liner, or, politely waiting until the person is escorted out. Telling your fired-up low IQ supporters to punch a protester and, if they do, he'll pay legal bills isn't the right way at all.
I don't get this whole 'silent majority' clap trap. It's what people with racist views say when they wonder why they don't have a lot of support.
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2016/03/14 21:11:16
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
TheMeanDM wrote: If you are a disruptive jackass protesting...sure..I can see being removed.
So what about the people simply holding a sign?
Or the hajib wearing Muslim woman who did nothing more than show up with a shirt?
They are at a private event. If the event holder wants 'em out, they have to leave or be escorted out by the local gendarme/rent a cop.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/03/14 21:25:32
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
TheMeanDM wrote: If you are a disruptive jackass protesting...sure..I can see being removed.
So what about the people simply holding a sign?
Or the hajib wearing Muslim woman who did nothing more than show up with a shirt?
They are at a private event. If the event holder wants 'em out, they have to leave or be escorted out by the local gendarme/rent a cop.
I don't believe in 'private events' when it is a political rally. Especially when the manin charge is calling for an entire religion to be banned from a country.
Regardless, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that they can be escorted out. What we are suggesting is that assaulting protesters is not a legitimate response, not is calling for them to be assaulted to get a few cheap claps from drunk thugs.
You have also been trying to equate peaceful protest with violent assaults and we are disagreeing they are the same.
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2016/03/14 21:30:42
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
I have not equated protests with violent assaults. I said I have no sympathy for those attempting to shout down the rights of others, which is what this is. That they are getting smacked around seems entirely expected. Just like it would be expected that if you try to take a bone from a vicious attack poodle, its going to bite you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/14 21:37:05
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/03/14 21:49:05
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Wait, so protestors at multiple private events provoke a physical response and there is another incident where a protestor charging the stage is arrested and this is all Trump's fault? It seems like the protestors are getting at least as worked up as those at the rallies. By my count, the guy who punched the protestor in Fayetteville was arrested, the guy in Dayton charging the stage was arrested, at least 4 Chicago protestors were arrested, and St. Louis had over 30 protestors arrested. These do not seem particularly peaceful protests, nor limited to the normal bounds of free speech. They seem to be active disruptions trying to provoke conflict.
If one is looking for a fight then don't be surprised to find one.
And it seems to be playing right into Trump's claims! Heck, him cancelling Chicago for safety makes him look like the good guy!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/14 21:54:42
-James
2016/03/14 22:16:44
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Frazzled wrote: What you believe is not relevant. What is, is.
I have not equated protests with violent assaults. I said I have no sympathy for those attempting to shout down the rights of others, which is what this is. That they are getting smacked around seems entirely expected. Just like it would be expected that if you try to take a bone from a vicious attack poodle, its going to bite you.
Sorry, but I expect better of a person than a dog. It is NEVER appropriate for a protester to be assaulted.
Escort them out of private events sure...but it should never be expected that they are met with violence.
2016/03/14 22:21:29
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Frazzled wrote: I agree. We can't gloss over the Soros funded Move-on.org's tactics to stifle free speech rights. Perhaps a RICO investigation is in order.
Implying that they are congress or any body of government passing laws stifling free speech.
That is a stupid comment. MoveOn.org admits to funding the signs and banners, and spent a lot of man hours organizing, promoting and leading. To minimize their efforts as you have is silly.
Considering I know people who go to UIC, are in the political science department and actually talked to them about this exact thing. But you are right I don't know anything about it
Great, so what part of my statement was wrong?
Move On did fund the printed materials, did organize, recruit/promote and lead the protestors. Diminishing their contribution to 50 cent signs is damned silly. They did do a lot more.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2016/03/14 22:52:20
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
That is a stupid comment. MoveOn.org admits to funding the signs and banners, and spent a lot of man hours organizing, promoting and leading. To minimize their efforts as you have is silly.
Considering I know people who go to UIC, are in the political science department and actually talked to them about this exact thing. But you are right I don't know anything about it
Great, so what part of my statement was wrong?
Move On did fund the printed materials, did organize, recruit/promote and lead the protestors. Diminishing their contribution to 50 cent signs is damned silly. They did do a lot more.
That move on came in towards the middle/end. The largest portion of the leg work was already done by the students
That is a stupid comment. MoveOn.org admits to funding the signs and banners, and spent a lot of man hours organizing, promoting and leading. To minimize their efforts as you have is silly.
Considering I know people who go to UIC, are in the political science department and actually talked to them about this exact thing. But you are right I don't know anything about it
Great, so what part of my statement was wrong?
Move On did fund the printed materials, did organize, recruit/promote and lead the protestors. Diminishing their contribution to 50 cent signs is damned silly. They did do a lot more.
Sort of like the tea party was completely a grass roots movement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/14 23:33:28
Help me, Rhonda. HA!
2016/03/15 00:57:46
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Rosebuddy wrote: I am not confusing anything at all. It is a dull joke. There is no unexpected turn. The punchline is simply "socialism is about taking your things so I took your thing". There is no wit to it.
As long as you see things in terms of ‘does this joke fit my political views?’ then yeah, it’s just ‘socialism means taking stuff’. For anyone who understands socialism, but isn’t precious about the subject then the joke works because it applies a caricature of socialism to a sign in a clever way.
The best part of this was the Trump - Bernie Twitter exchange where Trump threatened to send this supporters to Bernie's rallies. Bernie replied 'Let them come - they deserve to see an honest politician'. #Burned.
It was a great line, whether either line was from Trump or Sanders it maybe doesn't matter. Because it wasn't just a funny one-liner, but actually spoke to the core of what makes good politics different from Trump politics - Trump's line was caught up in my people vs your people, it was purely combative. The response encouraged people to hear alternative views, hear which idea is best.
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Frazzled wrote: Then don't try to inhibit their free speech? Protesters should legally protest outside. Protesting at events are merely fascistic attempts at tyranny.
"Fascistic attempts at tyranny" is a wonderfully fanciful term for getting up at a rally and saying you don't like a candidate, then getting told to leave.
Now, if anyone could actually prove that the protests were organised with the intent of causing so much disruption that it prevented Trump speaking, then you'd have evidence of a dick move. Not a fascistic attempt at tyranny, but a dick move. Of course, there's been no evidence of any such thing, just a bunch of accusations that the actions of a handful of people must have been plotted and organised because that's the view that best allows you to think the worst of the other side of politics.
Out of curiosity, when the Republican party, particularly the Tea Party, called on members to attend Democrat efforts to talk about healthcare reform and be as disruptive as possible, did you describe that as a fascistic attempt at tyranny? If not, why not?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/15 01:28:44
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/03/15 01:28:40
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jmurph wrote: Wait, so protestors at multiple private events provoke a physical response and there is another incident where a protestor charging the stage is arrested and this is all Trump's fault? It seems like the protestors are getting at least as worked up as those at the rallies. By my count, the guy who punched the protestor in Fayetteville was arrested, the guy in Dayton charging the stage was arrested, at least 4 Chicago protestors were arrested, and St. Louis had over 30 protestors arrested. These do not seem particularly peaceful protests, nor limited to the normal bounds of free speech. They seem to be active disruptions trying to provoke conflict.
Emphasis mine - I think that is TBD. Holding up a Trump is Hitler sign or whatever is not provoking a physical response, other than being escorted out if on private property. Obviously rushing the stage is. After reading some more this morning I'm gonna stick with my earlier stance that I don't think it's really clear at all from what I've seen which "side" is responsible, it looks to me like lots of jerks from both camps. I think this somehow got called "glossing over what the opposition did", which I didn't - but maybe that was aimed at someone else.
I think you have the right to protest in public spaces, but not to disrupt events to shut down speech you don't like.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/03/15 01:35:55
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Yeah, I'm going it have to agree on that. Protesting is never "provoking physical response". If they aren't trying to hurt you, I don't care if they are calling your mother a whore, violence is never the answer.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/03/15 01:37:33
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Prestor Jon wrote: The Trump rallies are being held in arenas/buildings that are private property, therefore there are no free speech rights in play for the protestors. They can protest outside on public property but they don't have a right to be in the building if the running the event/building want them to leave. This holds true for any rally/event being held on private property.
There's no need for protestors fo this nature to lead to violence but anyone walking into an event on private property with the intent to be a disruptive nuisance needs to understand that they will be escorted out as soon as they act up.
Yeah, and I think entering the building with a plan to disrupt is obnoxious, but whatever, politics is full of obnoxious people. It certainly doesn't give anyone the right to strike anyone else. This only becomes an issue if it can be established that political group, either one of the big parties or one of the supporting groups like moveone, is actually attempting an organised campaign of disruption. When political groups start planning to behave en masse like the most obnoxious members of society then there really is a problem.
But at this point all we have are accusations, taken as truth by people who want to believe the worst of any progressive group.
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Kilkrazy wrote: As Trump is such a good construction company exec, maybe he could build huge walls around his events to keep out the undesirables.
He's so clever he'll even make the protesters pay for the walls.
There's no guest list. It is open to anyone who wants to attend. It is a public event. Aren't you a lawyer?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jmurph wrote: Wait, so protestors at multiple private events provoke a physical response
As long as we assume Trump supporters are amoeba with no capability beyond stimulus and response, then sure, that summary makes sense. But once we take a closer look and notice that most if not all Trump supporters are human beings and not amoeba, then we can actually apply some human standards of decision making and responsibility to those people. "The person was disruptive so I punched them" is not an acceptable response for a human.
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Ouze wrote: I think you have the right to protest in public spaces, but not to disrupt events to shut down speech you don't like.
Just to open that up, you actually have the right to disrupt as well. There's is nothing illegal in entering a rally open to the public, and picking a point during the rally to be disruptive. It's a dick move, but as long as you make no effort to resist the request to make you leave, you have every right to do it.
In fact, it's even the right of a political party to organise lots of people in disruption attacks. And that's where we get to the real issue - how much a good, healthy democracy relies not just on laws and formal rights, but also on goodwill and accepted codes of good behaviour among the major players. If those standards fall down, then no rules or legal code can make sure decent political debate still happens.
That's why the Republican attempts to shut down the healthcare townhalls was such an odious tactic, and it's why I was so angry at conservatives on this site who ignored that strategy simply because they wanted to cheer for their team. And if moveon is organising something similar at Trump rallies, that's just as gakky, and just as troubling.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/03/15 01:53:35
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/03/15 02:22:27
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
No, it's not illegal - I think I implied that with what I said but that's not what I meant, my bad. What I meant was that I agree - it's a gakky thing to do.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/03/15 02:30:24
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Ouze wrote: No, it's not illegal - I think I implied that with what I said but that's not what I meant, my bad. What I meant was that I agree - it's a gakky thing to do.
Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to contradict you, I don't think you said anything wrong. I was just trying to open it up for a greater conversation about the difference between what is legal, and what is actually an okay thing to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/15 02:30:53
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2016/03/15 03:03:55
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition