Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dust Studios is not an American company. BF's American branch is. The former cannot use KS, the latter can. Simple as that. As for the rest, we only have Paolo's word for that.

It's been stated that the KS was Battlefront's idea. DS's CEO William Yau was very much against BF's kickstarter proposal. Paolo had some concerns but also wanted to help BF out (and probably wanted to get paid) and so was less against the KS. BF drew up the contract for the KS items, which made DS strictly a manufacturer and so would only be paid for making the Babylon items and not eligible to receive profits from the kickstarter were it to blow up big.

People who are saying that the KS was DS's idea are either misinformed or trying to spread misinformation.

I'm still not seeing where this was ever going to work out for BF, which means they are either completely inept, or we are missing some information. I'm betting on the latter.

Now, now...the former IS an option.

However, the odds are ever-so-slightly in favor of the latter.

carboncopy wrote:
It's been stated that the KS was Battlefront's idea. DS's CEO William Yau was very much against BF's kickstarter proposal. Paolo had some concerns but also wanted to help BF out (and probably wanted to get paid) and so was less against the KS. BF drew up the contract for the KS items, which made DS strictly a manufacturer and so would only be paid for making the Babylon items and not eligible to receive profits from the kickstarter were it to blow up big.

People who are saying that the KS was DS's idea are either misinformed or trying to spread misinformation.

How does this work out for BF? DS didn't have the money to do any of the Babylon stuff and it certainly doesn't help BF to finance them, and I doubt any banks would give DS loans in that kind of stiuation. (So taking that logically, it sounds to me like BF wasn't working to pay DS off, which we have no actual proof of) if DS was solvent, there would have been no KS, they'd have produced the stuff and Battlefront would have distributed and sold it.

carboncopy wrote:
It's been stated that the KS was Battlefront's idea. DS's CEO William Yau was very much against BF's kickstarter proposal. Paolo had some concerns but also wanted to help BF out (and probably wanted to get paid) and so was less against the KS. BF drew up the contract for the KS items, which made DS strictly a manufacturer and so would only be paid for making the Babylon items and not eligible to receive profits from the kickstarter were it to blow up big.

People who are saying that the KS was DS's idea are either misinformed or trying to spread misinformation.

if people think it was DS's idea to run the kickstarter it's probably because of Paolo's own words.

Spring 2014. In those very stressful days we decided to run a KS to release new items (there was a lack of new products releases on the market) and at the same time raise funds and allow BF to pay their debts towards the Factoring Bank.
We proposed a typical KS agreement where both parties equally shared the profits. BF refused that agreement and proposed the one attached here. Where BF would simply buy the goods from DS and

That makes it sound like either it was DS's idea or a mutual one. The only arm pulling was that BF wanted a contract that favored them. They make it sound like they where in the clear to just walk away at that point too. I'm not sure why they didn't. I still have suspicions that that factor bank loan was a surprise to BF in some way. Leading them to want a more favorable contract for the KS. One that also has a waiver that voids their original contract if the KS one was violated. I just don't see BF flaking out on a lone to a major financial institution. Flaking out on DS, yeah, but not Bank of America. There has to be more to this story in terms of what was going on pre-kickstater to get both sides so desperate.

And people seem to think there where profits here. The money is gone. The campaign is in the red. This is all about who's eating the costs and looks least like a jerk to potential future business partners.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

carboncopy wrote:
It's been stated that the KS was Battlefront's idea. DS's CEO William Yau was very much against BF's kickstarter proposal. Paolo had some concerns but also wanted to help BF out (and probably wanted to get paid) and so was less against the KS. BF drew up the contract for the KS items, which made DS strictly a manufacturer and so would only be paid for making the Babylon items and not eligible to receive profits from the kickstarter were it to blow up big.

People who are saying that the KS was DS's idea are either misinformed or trying to spread misinformation.

How does this work out for BF? DS didn't have the money to do any of the Babylon stuff and it certainly doesn't help BF to finance them, and I doubt any banks would give DS loans in that kind of stiuation. (So taking that logically, it sounds to me like BF wasn't working to pay DS off, which we have no actual proof of) if DS was solvent, there would have been no KS, they'd have produced the stuff and Battlefront would have distributed and sold it.

Getting money for goods you have manufactured for someone is not 'financing'. You might want to rethink this term.

Also did you not notice the part in the contract where bf owes DS 200+ k? Sounds like they did a fair amount of distributing without paying.

Sining wrote:

Spoiler:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

carboncopy wrote:
It's been stated that the KS was Battlefront's idea. DS's CEO William Yau was very much against BF's kickstarter proposal. Paolo had some concerns but also wanted to help BF out (and probably wanted to get paid) and so was less against the KS. BF drew up the contract for the KS items, which made DS strictly a manufacturer and so would only be paid for making the Babylon items and not eligible to receive profits from the kickstarter were it to blow up big.

People who are saying that the KS was DS's idea are either misinformed or trying to spread misinformation.

How does this work out for BF? DS didn't have the money to do any of the Babylon stuff and it certainly doesn't help BF to finance them, and I doubt any banks would give DS loans in that kind of stiuation. (So taking that logically, it sounds to me like BF wasn't working to pay DS off, which we have no actual proof of) if DS was solvent, there would have been no KS, they'd have produced the stuff and Battlefront would have distributed and sold it.

Getting money for goods you have manufactured for someone is not 'financing'. You might want to rethink this term.

Also did you not notice the part in the contract where bf owes DS 200+ k? Sounds like they did a fair amount of distributing without paying.

It actually is in this case. It's a factor loan. How it works is company A sends an order for goods to company B. Company B doesn't have the money to begin production, so they sell the receivables invoice from Company A to a factor bank. The factor bank then pays company B the cash value of the invoice minus interest and fees. Now Company A has to pay the bank for the goods and not Company B. I believe the goods to be delivered is typically the collateral on the loan. It's supposed to be a common practice in manufacturing.

My guess, with the 200K outstanding factor loan, their credit wasn't good enough to finance another Dust production run.

More likely is that final payment is being withheld because no one can agree what the check is supposed to read.

 CaulynDarr wrote:

Sining wrote:

Spoiler:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

carboncopy wrote:
It's been stated that the KS was Battlefront's idea. DS's CEO William Yau was very much against BF's kickstarter proposal. Paolo had some concerns but also wanted to help BF out (and probably wanted to get paid) and so was less against the KS. BF drew up the contract for the KS items, which made DS strictly a manufacturer and so would only be paid for making the Babylon items and not eligible to receive profits from the kickstarter were it to blow up big.

People who are saying that the KS was DS's idea are either misinformed or trying to spread misinformation.

How does this work out for BF? DS didn't have the money to do any of the Babylon stuff and it certainly doesn't help BF to finance them, and I doubt any banks would give DS loans in that kind of stiuation. (So taking that logically, it sounds to me like BF wasn't working to pay DS off, which we have no actual proof of) if DS was solvent, there would have been no KS, they'd have produced the stuff and Battlefront would have distributed and sold it.

Getting money for goods you have manufactured for someone is not 'financing'. You might want to rethink this term.

Also did you not notice the part in the contract where bf owes DS 200+ k? Sounds like they did a fair amount of distributing without paying.

It actually is in this case. It's a factor loan. How it works is company A sends an order for goods to company B. Company B doesn't have the money to begin production, so they sell the receivables invoice from Company A to a factor bank. The factor bank then pays company B the cash value of the invoice minus interest and fees. Now Company A has to pay the bank for the goods and not Company B. I believe the goods to be delivered is typically the collateral on the loan. It's supposed to be a common practice in manufacturing.

My guess, with the 200K outstanding factor loan, their credit wasn't good enough to finance another Dust production run.

It is. But unless American factoring works very differently from the European and Singaporean factoring I'm used to, factories still need to produce the good before they can receive the money.

Interesting development: a Battlefront employee has been contacting vocal critics of the Dust Kickstarter and is attempting a behind the scenes PR campaign. They are pleading their case and casting the blame on DS, and how if they would just be reasonable and eat half the cost of the freebies that this would all just work itself out.

They wouldn't try that here, would they? Nah.

Given that you can't be considered unbiased, confirmation is required.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
More likely is that final payment is being withheld because no one can agree what the check is supposed to read.

Bingo. That's the issue.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Given that you can't be considered unbiased, confirmation is required.

Confirmation of what? That BF is calling people, or that BF trolls are in this thread?

Interesting Major Malfunction. Of course, if true, how is that any different than DS running to social media an airing the disagreement to all in an effort to force the court of public opinion in their favor?

No one is blameless in all of this.

Shotgun wrote:
Interesting Major Malfunction. Of course, if true, how is that any different than DS running to social media an airing the disagreement to all in an effort to force the court of public opinion in their favor?

No one is blameless in all of this.

The difference is that DS did so to get their message to the backers, of whom they don't have a complete list of or easy way of contacting. Unlike BF, who ran the KS and can deliver their message through said avenue.

So BF going to the backers directly to atempt to sway opinion is somehow nefarious and underhanded, but DS attempting to sway opinion by swarming blogs and facebook is somehow pure and noble?

If true, both parties, rather than using the prescribed courts and standard remedies of contract dispute, are trying to use public opinion to coerce the opposing side, airing their laundry in public and showing all that they still have bed wetting problems. Neither is one any semblance of high road and anyone implying that one somehow stinks less is being delusional.

weeble1000 wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
More likely is that final payment is being withheld because no one can agree what the check is supposed to read.

Bingo. That's the issue.

A hundred times this.

I'd go so far as to the say that current leaks and messages and communications are attempts at trying to further leverage that figure. (I am probably wrong)

 Major Malfunction wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Given that you can't be considered unbiased, confirmation is required.

Confirmation of what? That BF is calling people, or that BF trolls are in this thread?

Ooooooh! Now you're getting nasty. You can't make claims like that without evidence and expect to be helping the situation.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Major Malfunction wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Given that you can't be considered unbiased, confirmation is required.

Confirmation of what? That BF is calling people, or that BF trolls are in this thread?

Ooooooh! Now you're getting nasty. You can't make claims like that without evidence and expect to be helping the situation.

Why not? Pretty much everyone is making claims with little to no actual evidence in this thread. If it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck....

 Dawnbringer wrote:
I'm still not seeing where this was ever going to work out for BF, which means they are either completely inept, or we are missing some information. I'm betting on the latter.

After dealing with their webstore (over some 5E spellcards), I'll go with inept.

Well, I love Dust and really want the products I ordered (over $600 in premium stuff). I emailed Dust Studios over this issue to see how I should proceed (be patient and wait/pray for the items I want and paid for or contact my credit card to report this issue and request a refund). Dust Studios sent me this:


Hi XXXX,

Thank you for contacting us and please accept our apologies for this inconvenience.

Battlefront refuses to pay for what they call "Babylon wave 2" and we have no means of delivering any product to the
backers if we don’t get paid.

We would suggest two things:

First, please send us a copy of the invoice you should have received from Battlefront with your order’s delivery: this will
provide our staff with the information they need to keep you updated.

Second, you should file a complaint with your credit card company as consumers are usually well protected if a merchant
fails to deliver products they paid for.

You should at least get your money back and in the meantime your models will be kept safe here in our warehouse,
waiting for you.

Our lawyers are working on the case and we hope to have some development beginning of April, we will keep you
posted.

Thank you again for your support.

Sincerely,
Dust Studio Team




Looking like we won't be getting our items after all.... and I really liked the Babylon stuff/characters For the time being I am going to sit tight as most credit card companies only offer no questions asked protection for 60 days (you have to write a paper letter otherwise if it is longer that they review and decide if they should take the loss - like they are going to take the loss on a kickstarter from last year...). Well that and I really am hoping they can settle this so I get my items (If we get refunds and they figure this out, BF won't be sending the remaining items since I would have gotten my money back).

I have no dog in this fight and am not choosing sides, I just want my items!! What a predicament....

 455_PWR wrote:
Well, I love Dust and really want the products I ordered (over $600 in premium stuff). I emailed Dust Studios over this issue to see how I should proceed (be patient and wait/pray for the items I want and paid for or contact my credit card to report this issue and request a refund). Dust Studios sent me this:


Hi XXXX,

Thank you for contacting us and please accept our apologies for this inconvenience.

Battlefront refuses to pay for what they call "Babylon wave 2" and we have no means of delivering any product to the
backers if we don’t get paid.

We would suggest two things:

First, please send us a copy of the invoice you should have received from Battlefront with your order’s delivery: this will
provide our staff with the information they need to keep you updated.

Second, you should file a complaint with your credit card company as consumers are usually well protected if a merchant
fails to deliver products they paid for.

You should at least get your money back and in the meantime your models will be kept safe here in our warehouse,
waiting for you.

Our lawyers are working on the case and we hope to have some development beginning of April, we will keep you
posted.

Thank you again for your support.

Sincerely,
Dust Studio Team




Looking like we won't be getting our items after all.... and I really liked the Babylon stuff/characters For the time being I am going to sit tight as most credit card companies only offer no questions asked protection for 60 days (you have to write a paper letter otherwise if it is longer that they review and decide if they should take the loss - like they are going to take the loss on a kickstarter from last year...). Well that and I really am hoping they can settle this so I get my items (If we get refunds and they figure this out, BF won't be sending the remaining items since I would have gotten my money back).

I have no dog in this fight and am not choosing sides, I just want my items!! What a predicament....

This is why I have a hard time believing Dust Studios. Because in the contract they've shown everyone, it specifically calls out Dust Studios as being responsible for any and all refunds.

 455_PWR wrote:


Second, you should file a complaint with your credit card company as consumers are usually well protected if a merchant
fails to deliver products they paid for.

Lol. It amazes me that Dust would write this...anywhere. Backers didn't pay for goods. Period. Kickstarter is not a store. Let's just hammer home how the entire project was a violation of Kickstarter's T&Q.

Also, it's important to note that the rumor of a BF employee contacting backers is completely unsubstantiated. And like with most things on the internet, that usually means that it's false. The only thing we've heard of it is just a guy randomly posting that he heard it from another guy on another forum.

Not that I don't think BF has its own part to play in this mess. But let's be reasonable on both sides here.

weeble1000 wrote:

 455_PWR wrote:


Second, you should file a complaint with your credit card company as consumers are usually well protected if a merchant
fails to deliver products they paid for.

Lol. It amazes me that Dust would write this...anywhere. Backers didn't pay for goods. Period. Kickstarter is not a store. Let's just hammer home how the entire project was a violation of Kickstarter's T&Q.

Hmmm, how is that a violation of KS T&C? Kickstarter projects are free to have their own terms, and most of them are setup as Preorder Projects. It's not the way that Kickstarter was originally intended, but that's the way its grown. Kickstarter has even altered their T&C to reflect (wash their hands of) that. People often dispute Kickstarter purchases with their credit cards or through their banks and are successful. It becomes an issue when the KS has drug past 6 months or a certain time period, and then it's no longer possible to go that route. Then you have to go through the court system.

carboncopy wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 455_PWR wrote:


Second, you should file a complaint with your credit card company as consumers are usually well protected if a merchant
fails to deliver products they paid for.

Lol. It amazes me that Dust would write this...anywhere. Backers didn't pay for goods. Period. Kickstarter is not a store. Let's just hammer home how the entire project was a violation of Kickstarter's T&Q.

Hmmm, how is that a violation of KS T&C? Kickstarter projects are free to have their own terms, and most of them are setup as Preorder Projects. It's not the way that Kickstarter was originally intended, but that's the way its grown. Kickstarter has even altered their T&C to reflect (wash their hands of) that. People often dispute Kickstarter purchases with their credit cards or through their banks and are successful. It becomes an issue when the KS has drug past 6 months or a certain time period, and then it's no longer possible to go that route. Then you have to go through the court system.

Were you reading an entirely different set of Terms and Conditions than me? Maybe one of us is trapped in thevTwilight Zone. Kickstarter is LITTERALY explicit and unambiguous about the fact that it is NOT a preorder system.

I'm normally not so dismissive, but seriously, go to the website and actually read it. Then come back and revise your post if you feel it is necessarry.

weeble1000 wrote:

Were you reading an entirely different set of Terms and Conditions than me? Maybe one of us is trapped in thevTwilight Zone. Kickstarter is LITTERALY explicit and unambiguous about the fact that it is NOT a preorder system.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it also explicitly state that funds gained cannot be used to pay off a pre-existing debt?

If Dust wants money from BF, then how does telling people to remove their money from BF (and thereby Dust) help them achieve that goal?

carboncopy wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Major Malfunction wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Given that you can't be considered unbiased, confirmation is required.

Confirmation of what? That BF is calling people, or that BF trolls are in this thread?

Ooooooh! Now you're getting nasty. You can't make claims like that without evidence and expect to be helping the situation.

Why not? Pretty much everyone is making claims with little to no actual evidence in this thread. If it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck....

Doesn't make them right. I'm just as entitled to ask for proof of his statements as the Major is to insult and ignore me.